Forum menu
So why can't we get around 5000 EU workers in to help re-open Port Talbot & Redcar steelworks?
Surely that would keep the Remainers & the Brexiters happy if it worked. Neither could complain!
There you go again, sticking up for business and the super wealthy elite who begrudge paying minimum.
Of course the Elite like the EU, it provides a lower wage bill.
Yay!
I was thinking more of small startups who need to be agile and move quickly to survive. Not big businesses or super wealthy at all.
I've offered an insight into my personal situation, which, if nothing else may assist remainsters in understanding why so many folk voted leave.
You make a very good point, and I appreciate it - it's one of the only real points that have been made on here. However I can also see how someone in your position *could* blame immigration for this when it could quite easily have happened with a UK citizen instead of a Romanian. So it might be that people are blaming the EU because that was their pre-existing belief. It's not yet clear.
We have the statistic that EU migration has depressed wages by 2% or so. But we don't have a breakdown of that figure - so for example it could have increased wages in some areas by promoting growth, then seriously undercutting others like Solo, and the average would not show that.
However we also do not have other figures to give that context, either. It may be that the security of businesses has increased (small and large before you jump on me) at the expense of headline wage figures. In other words, by forcing your employer to pay you more money than the Romanian they might end up going to the wall, and losing all their business to a Romanian firm composed of all those Romanians forced to stay in Romania.
Very complex issues here.
@MolGrips.
Good post. Nice to see some folk deliberately maintaining an open mind.
Good discussion, so far.
🙂
I was thinking more of small startups who need to be agile and move quickly to survive. Not big businesses or super wealthy at all.
how many of these small, agile, startups employ the working clases?
That is the issue that has been identified - the ever growing gap between the working classes and the rest. Even the investment banks are starting to realise it, let alone Jeremy Corbyn...
Free movement either is, or is seen as a potential, threat to the already depressed standards enjoyed by the working classes. They don't benefit from it, unless you count the increased tax revenues of the government meaning that it is more readily capable of paying their benefits.
Turner Guy - loved those videos 🙂
Ease of hiring is a key issue for businesses.
Yes I do appreciate why business loves an almost a growing supply of increasingly cheap labour. Cheap for business leaving the state to pay supplementary welfare or unemployment benefit for those left behind
We have the statistic that EU migration has depressed wages by 2% or so. But we don't have a breakdown of that figure - so for example it could have increased wages in some areas by promoting growth, then seriously undercutting others like Solo, and the average would not show that.
This I find fascinating and its my view that if the evidemce was supportive of freedom of movement of Labour on wages and regional growth and given Remain was the only campaign to have access to that data they would have told us much more.
We have the statistic that EU migration has depressed wages by 2% or so. But we don't have a breakdown of that figure - so for example it could have increased wages in some areas by promoting growth, then seriously undercutting others like Solo, and the average would not show that
Do we? I would love to read the anlysis that shows this, BSers regularly quoted the BoE study which says nothing of the sort - no surprise there. Anyone got a link or able to tell me more about this widely quoted "fact"?
You're just an angry, frustrated, remainster, now determined to paint as black a picture of the UK's future, as you can.The optimists and nation builders will naturally ignore you and those like you.
Love the quote, sometimes reality hurts.
My story typifies how rigid and inflexible the EU has become. So much so to the point a major member has voted to leave.
Your story - If I recall correctly was how a younger person with less experience was recruited by your employer to do the same job as you and therefor pegged your pay rate as the job rate was competitive. This happens all over the place. The solution would to to close borders and stop training people in your field so there was a skills shortage then your wages would rise. I's sure you agree an ideal situation.
how many of these small, agile, startups employ the working clases?That is the issue that has been identified - the ever growing gap between the working classes and the rest. Even the investment banks are starting to realise it, let alone Jeremy Corbyn...
Free movement either is, or is seen as a potential, threat to the already depressed standards enjoyed by the working classes. They don't benefit from it, unless you count the increased tax revenues of the government meaning that it is more readily capable of paying their benefits.
and who are the working class? Are they people we can't protect with minimum wages or somebody else? Are they those that are keen and eager for work and willing to move for it? Work doesn't appear where people live all the time.
How many people pushed out by immigrants are ready to do the work they took or did people fill a void?
BSers regularly quoted the BoE study which says nothing of the sort
That is what I was referring to. I didn't read it though so apologies if I am wrong. However the point stands - average wage movement tells us nothing much. Broken down by job sector it might.
Anyway - most of the arguments are about immigration, not specifically EU migration. People from both India and Australia do what Solo is talking about. For that matter, what's to stop someone from say Inverness heading down to London and doing it?
Where can we draw the line? Restricting movement too much is a pretty severe path to start down. Are you really going to prop wages up based on what people think they deserve? What will that do for the cost efficiency of the businesses they work for? Isn't this what the problem was in the 70s? Isn't it the problem that say GM face in the US?
[quote="mikewsmith"]Your story - If I recall correctly was how a younger person with less experience was recruited by your employer to do the same job as you and therefor pegged your pay rate as the job rate was competitive. This happens all over the place. The solution would to to close borders and stop training people in your field so there was a skills shortage then your wages would rise. I's sure you agree an ideal situation.Might be time for him to add a few skills to his CV, then he can be like me, a bloody foreigner and still earning chunks more than the nominally more qualified/experienced and older bloke who does my job for the next group over.
He's not bitter about it though. For many reasons.
Apologies accepted mol, as you are wrong. But understandable as the BSers were all too keen to misquote the BoE to fool the GB public. The study makes reference to a US study that found that relationship and also to the fact that others did not support it. Their study - and it's specific - concludes the the impact on wages in the UK is small.
So we have to resort to "stories" and anecdotes. So a younger girl can do Solo's job for less pay. And the answer.....?
It makes no odds whether she is Romanain or not, it happens in my industry all the time - it's called (rather appallingly) juniorisation - but it is not caused by the EU. There has always been competition for labour (bo supply and demand) and it's a good thing.
Freedom of movement is a positive factor that should be encouraged not demonised.
This really is a huge question. If you want to keep wages high by manipulating the market it will have consequences that may not be for everyone's benefit in the long run.
In IT we have the outsourcing problem. It does not seem to have driven wages down though because we have a skills shortage; outsourced teams are generally doing the lower end of the skill set, and local experts, architecs and managers are still needed. Also there are always more projects that can be implemented. So cheap labour simply results in a bigger market for the higher skill/pay positions. Not so with the auto industry in which Solo works
- people can only buy so many cars as they will always be expensive items. And people only need so many.
In IT we have the outsourcing problem. It does not seem to have driven wages down though because we have a skills shortage;
We'd be in a lot more trouble though if the outsourcing worked a little better though.
We have a Romanian programmer at work, a devout Christian who is sending money home to build his dream home whilst he works here...
Just been talking to him about the EU and funnily enough he is of the exact same opinion as me, the EU is basically out to favor corporations/globalisation and screw the working classes.
His own evidence suggests quite the opposite but hey, ho.....
His own evidence suggests quite the opposite but hey, ho.....
depends on your definition of working class, I wouldn't put him in that category - he's in the mobile highly skilled sector.
he's in the mobile highly skilled sector.
actually I have looked at his code, 'highly' is being generous...
We have a Romanian programmer at work, a devout Christian who is sending money home to build his dream home whilst he works here...
You say that like it's a problem. 😐
You know, there's a Scot in our office taking a position that could be filled by a Yorkshire native. Just turned up for the cash blinking economic migrant. And he's contributing to the housing shortage. And he expects his children to be educated in a local school at the tax payers expense. And he expects the English NHS to treat him free of charge.
And for that my apologies. 😉
Are they those that are keen and eager for work and willing to move for it? Work doesn't appear where people live all the time.
how does that fit in with social housing? If someone lives in a social house and is trying to raise a family as well, and all the work has buggered off to another area because the workforce is cheaper, then is the country suppossed to provide a pool of vacant social house around the country in case people need to move to find work ?
Of if they had managed to buy a house they are now faced with all the fees involved in selling, paying stamp duty, etc, as they are forced to move because all the companies have moved to exploit a cheaper workforce somewhere else.
So the working classes are now condemmed to always earning the lowest possible wage and always renting just to support an environment that supports globalisaton and capitilisation.
A great way to build a society.
How come people on this forum have such left wing views normally but are happy to swing to the far right when discussing the EU?
Alternatively TG why do people confuse issues that have nothing to do with the EU with the EU debate?
Alternatively TG why do people confuse issues that have nothing to do with the EU with the EU debate?
which issues are you alluding to ?
If someone lives in a social house and is trying to raise a family as well, and all the work has buggered off to another area because the workforce is cheaper, then is the country suppossed to provide a pool of vacant social house around the country in case people need to move to find work ?
That can easily happen within the UK, it need not have anything to do with the EU.
What we're talking about is a flexible labour market vs security for workers. These two things are reasonably exclusive - but NOT just within the EU. It's also a worldwide and a national problem.
If you let locals demand higher wages to do a job than could be paid to people elsewhere, that business is less competitive than it could be. What's your solution TurnerGuy? Solo?
I have no idea what the solution is.
I have no idea what the solution is.
Well some ideas, build some more houses 🙂 (damm EU stopped us doing that)
Well some ideas, build some more houses
and leave them empty in case people need to move around the country ???
Sounds like the Chinese solution. Dormitories full of migrant workers, 18 hour days, paying for your 4 to a room cell, paying for your food.
Regular suicides.
What's your solution TurnerGuy? Solo?
no idea, but it has to be some form of reponsible capitalism rather than just letting rampant capitalism run riot.
I mean these working classes, bless 'em, they are not bright and need looking after.
A bit like my British Shorthair cat - he's not bright either and needs protecting.
The main difference being that he is not racist or xenophobic - at least I think but I might find out differently in a couple of weeks when the new kitten arrives.
And I have got some ideas about the racism that is becoming apparent in Britain. It involves electric shock therapy though, so it probably wouldn't fly.
No the UK has a housing shortage. It needs more houses around employment, it would cool the housing bubble too. Some simple facts exist, to get out of the lower pay/work groups you need either find better work, increase your qualifications or experience. In many ways sitting around waiting for work isn't the best way. When people's skills don't match the work available it's hard to employ them.
In the end moving even temporarily for work is sometimes a good option, people need to take some initiative some days. There is no way of moving things like the east anglia veg fields to Redcar.
There is no way of moving things like the east anglia veg fields to Redcar.
No, but there's plenty of companies that could move tomorrow, rather than stay in the pressure-cooker South East of England where everything costs more (property, wages etc)
No the UK has a housing shortage. It needs more houses around employment
220000 according to an EU report, to accomodate the population growth from the EU.
Some simple facts exist, to get out of the lower pay/work groups you need either find better work, increase your qualifications or experience. In many ways sitting around waiting for work isn't the best way. When people's skills don't match the work available it's hard to employ them.
And how do you reskill yourself - you can get academic qualifications if you are bright enough (we are talking about the working classes here...) but a large number of companies will not employ someone without experience.
. 😕if you are bright enough (we are talking about the working classes here...)
So you should move business to areas of workers who are unskilled or not suitable? Which is it?
Governments can provide training and help to people (never stopped by the EU)
Well some ideas, build some more houses
it has to be some form of reponsible capitalism rather than just letting rampant capitalism run riot.
So then the onus is on the government to protect and enable its citizens *within* the modern flexible economy. Brexit would seem to be the worst way of attempting to do this, as it might reduce our businesses competitiveness - do we agree?
[i]That is the issue that has been identified - the ever growing gap between the working classes and the rest. Even the investment banks are starting to realise it, let alone Jeremy Corbyn...
Free movement either is, or is seen as a potential, threat to the already depressed standards enjoyed by the working classes. They don't benefit from it, unless you count the increased tax revenues of the government meaning that it is more readily capable of paying their benefits.
[/i]
Yep, they're poor because they're poor?
Well some ideas, build some more houses
Yup agreed but if the government builds and pays for them they must be offered equally to any EU citizen. UK rescources supporting the whole EU
@molgrips well no other trade group has freedom of movement, the EU has created a very poorly implemented free market where all the new joiners are increasingly poor, guaranteed downwards pressure on wages and working conditions. That "market" wouldn't exist without the EU project
Yup agreed but if the government builds and pays for them they must be offered equally to any EU citizen. UK rescources supporting the whole EU
Nope, non UK EU citizens do not currently have the same rights.
Yup agreed but if the government builds and pays for them they must be offered equally to any EU citizen. UK rescources supporting the whole EU
Seriously Jamby....
[img]
[/img]http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/farage-to-design-posters-for-trump-campaign-20160704110207
Remember how small the numbers actually are, rather than bang on about how nasty the EU is/was governments had every opportunity to fix some of the problems in society.
Are the Eastern European countries now short of people? Is there a lack of people doing their crap jobs if they are over here doing our crap jobs?
That "market" wouldn't exist without the EU project
Yes it would, of course it would! There were immigrants before the EU!
The EU has just changed the market conditions.
Are the Eastern European countries now short of people?
I thought I'd read that they were short of skilled workers, ironically.
I thought I'd read that they were short of skilled workers, ironically.
I imagine they need construction workers, what with all this British money being sent over to build houses. 😕
it might reduce our businesses competitiveness - do we agree?
it might, it might not.
Lots of overseas analysis I've seen that reckons it's a good move for the UK.
One even compared the EU to N'Sync, and the UK to Justin Bieber - it was obvious that the UK was going to have to move on...
Yep, they're poor because they're poor?
pretty much, but I think I am giving up - I'll be like everyone else here - I earn a good wedge, have a decent house, live in a nice area, so s8d the working class, it's all their fault for being too stupid to get a good education or for not working hard enough (that one could be true, based on my experience...)
I'll be like everyone else here - I earn a good wedge, have a decent house, live in a nice area, so s8d the working class, it's all their fault for being too stupid to get a good education or for not working hard enough (that one could be true, based on my experience...)
Perhaps the difference is many here don't see leaving the EU as the best way to help people. In reality the deal achieved will probably leave the UK freedom of movement in order to get some of the things that were promised the EU would just give us. So in the end a massive upheaval for no gain on things like that.
It all comes down to what governments will do for their people.
The deal reached will try to satisfy as many of the 100% as possible (not the 51.9 or 48.1) because that how you build a mandate at the next general election - whether that is 48 plus a bit or 52 plus a bit remains to be seen.
And that's democracy for you.