If there is going to be a world dictator then I vote for myself. The world would be a truly great place (in my head anyway, which is all that matters to a dictator)
*adds Kerley to list*
The recently released Lancet Countdown on health and climate change: code red for a healthy future
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01787-6/fulltext
Not what you'd call a cheerful read, but there is a suggestion of using the COVID-19 economic stimulus to pivot to greener economies.
The only realistic proposal I’ve seen is solar Geo-Engineering. The earth’s temperature drops 1-2degs after a major volcanic eruption. It would cost around $10b PA to replicate the effect, and inject SO2 & particulates into the upper atmosphere. Scary stuff I appreciate.
Injecting particulates into the atmosphere is indeed a scary prospect... law of unintended consequences and all that. But I agree with the general point, something like this may be required. And/or measures to mitigate the impacts of a warmer climate.
In reality it is probably the only type of thing that is going to save us from catastrophic climate change as hoping that countries/people will ever get their shit together is very optimistic.
Genocide is only the answer if i get to choose.
Otherwise the wrong people get chosen
Vote Tj for world dictator
If there is going to be a world dictator then I vote for myself. The world would be a truly great place (in my head anyway, which is all that matters to a dictator)
If you wish to reduce population start with the criminals but whether you like it or not you dream will come true in the next generation for the criminals ...
But who is worse the criminals or the greedy?
The only population that would be reduced is those that disagree with my approach (I am the world dictator after all)
I would rebalance wealth across the world which may not go down too well with the wealthy countries and people.
Tackling climate change would be a doddle as world dictator.
Ignoring the licensing issues for a moment, growing hemp everywhere seems to be the answer to a big chunk of environmental problems.
Could be the biodegradable replacement for most plastic packaging.
One acre of hemp makes four times as much paper as an acre of trees.
Even if it isn’t harvested, each tonne of hemp is sucking 1.5 tonnes of co2 out of the atmosphere.
Hemp helps the habitat by producing seeds for our avian friends.
It can suck toxins out of the soil too. Maybe it should be mandatory to grow hemp on sites, earmarked for brownfield development.
A gap-year land army, planting hemp in place of bracken and low-photosynthesis moorland.
Seems like a lot of peat is being used for compost. They’re currently looking for a substitute…
Or is that too simple/ no money in a technology that can’t be patented, etc.
On a slightly different theme, maybe it’s time for supermarkets to stop selling pasta sauce in glass jars.
If it was packaged in biodegradable containers, this would save tonnes in transporting glass jars.
Biomass for fuel and stuff, too.
Still. Sounds suspiciously like a hippy thing. Tough sell to the conservative voting UK, one suspects. Maybe we need to rebrand it first?
On a slightly different theme, maybe it’s time for supermarkets to stop selling pasta sauce in glass jars.
Don't worry, Joanna Lumley will be fixing this problem with a wartime ration book - no pasta sauce for anyone, ever. Although you might be able to get a tomato and (don't drop it) a handful of basil.
On a slightly different theme, maybe it’s time for supermarkets to stop selling pasta sauce in glass jars.
Glass is endlessly recyclable quite cheaply but it's also reusable, that's what we should be taking advantage of. Also, I'm not sure they ship the jars over from Italy, it probably comes in bulk and is bottled here.
They should sell these things in bulk in supermarkets but that raises a host of other issues.
Yes, more stuff should be in glass and then get reused for the same product again. Remember Corona bottles, milk bottles etc,.
The easiest way to look at how to live without plastics (and life generally) is to go back to the methods used in the 1950's which was pre mass consumer but not so long ago that we were in the dark ages.
I shop at a farm shop for fruit and veg and everything is put into a paper bag, weighed/counted at till and charged. No plastic, no barcodes (so less efficient for shop) but I just end up with a load of paper bags that go into the compost.
A gap-year land army, planting hemp in place of bracken and low-photosynthesis moorland.
this is a really really bad idea - bad for biodivesrsity and native wildlife
One acre of hemp makes four times as much paper as an acre of trees.
Even if it isn’t harvested, each tonne of hemp is sucking 1.5 tonnes of co2 out of the atmosphere.
Why do we need all this paper? Also it only stores the co2 temporarily…. Only until the product that it goes to make is discarded and Rots down or is burned and releases all that carbon.
And if we plant hemp everywhere, where are we going to grow all these plants we need to make plant based foods we’re all supposed to be eating now to save the environment?
Yes, more stuff should be in glass and then get reused for the same product again
Maybe 5 or 6 standard jars in different sizes that every manufacturer has to use. They can be collected at supermarkets and re-used. Could even have a deposit like the old pop bottles.
@molgrips:
Not only do we have to consider the extra transport weight of each pasta/ curry/ jam jar x global population.
Also: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is-running-out-of-sand
@tjagain: that ‘biodiversity’ will vanish if global warming accelerates.
In Neolithic times, all that high-altitude moorland with the standing stones used to be our ancestors farmland.
It could just as easily revert back to arable land given the ‘right’ conditions.
There’s soooo much moorland in the uk: narrow-leaved plants with negligible amounts of photosynthesis.
Who’s to say that hemp cultivation in these areas would harm the native fauna?
And then there’s the problem of bracken.
These moorlands are crap at absorbing water. When there’s been a rainstorm you can see that all the ‘precious nutrients’ (David Bellamy), have been washed out to sea, only to linger around the coast like a grubby tide mark.
@wobbliscott:
We not only require paper, but hemp can provide building materials (best insulator?), and it’s possible for hemp resin to be 3-d printed into all manner things.
It could replace the panels that make your fridge-freezer, bike frames, wheels, your laptop chassis, food packaging, car chassis, guitars.
Then we could easily recycle all the steel and aluminium, already utilised in the aforementioned products. Not tearing the planet apart for raw materials.
There’s 7 billion people who need to be fed, clothed and housed.
Hemp is one of the greatest sources of nutrition, and unlike cotton, doesn’t require hundreds of gallons of water to produce one t-shirt.
‘Planting hemp everywhere’ doesn’t mean totally replacing existing arable crops, but they’re going to find ways to replace meat with laboratory alternatives. So that pasture could be re-allocated to hemp/ bamboo, flax.
If plants release co2 when they decompose, that’s just part of the lifecycle, but hemp plants are also putting nutrients back into the soil, as well as sucking out toxins.
Hemp was certainly cultivated historically in Britain, so it could be suitable.
In the 90s i had a wallet made from hemp with a Dupont symbol subverted to say Dupot. Classy.
I also have some hemp clothes that are amazingly hardy.
What's going to happen with climate change is exactly how the UK responded to COVID but writ large.
At first we'll see it in some "other countries in Asia" and think that will never come here, it's just something that happens to them. (Asia being well, Asia, Africa, Pacific at the mo)
Then we'll see some western countries face disaster (Italy in this COVID comparison) and start to worry but still not do anything.
Then it'll start here (The UK = The rest of the West) and we'll all see that we need to lockdown and take actions etc.
But these actions won't be taken as the government with dither and think we can do herd immunity/it'll destroy the economy/the British people won't accept restrictions on their liberty.
The actions will be taken too late and the Government will say "Oh, it was unforeseeable/we couldn't have done any more/we did our best/you can't prepare for a pandemic"
We'll still have our entire way of life shut down and the biggest economic upheaval ever seen and more people will die than in wars.
But where acting a week late with COVID means 3 weeks more restrictions and thousands dead, with climate change replace a week with decades and thousands with millions.
Right now, we're all at that stage in COVID where we stopped going out and wearing masks and went into self-imposed lockdown about a week before the government decided to make it compulsory.
There will also be no New Zealand where we can see how a different path could avert all the deaths. There's just the Earth.
greatbeardedone
climate was very different in neolithic times. Since then we have had the creation of peat bogs locking up huge amounts of carbon. Nutrient runnoff from moorland is in large part due to heather burning and agriculture, Moorlands hold huge amounts of water and planting trees ( which used to cover much of the UK) would hold much more
Hemp may well have some benefits but you are starting with incorrect premises. Garbage in garbage out
Bellamy is a climate change denier
David Bellamy’s climate denial ended two years ago when he died.
We seem to be heading back to a warmer climate, like it was in Neolithic times.
Planting trees on the moors would be great, but would it be in time?
I think that the upland moors are so waterlogged at the moment that they cannot absorb any excess water from flash floods.
Planting hemp in place of the sterile spruce forests may mean that we can get our pulp celluloid needs from the hemp and then concentrate our arboreal requirements into higher value tree species.
We’ll still need some spruce for roof joists and the like.
You were talking about moorland, now you talk about spruce plantations. ??????
Kill everyone with more than one bicycle.
Why would you need two bicycles to kill someone with?
Swung fast enough, a single one should be effective.
I think that the upland moors are so waterlogged at the moment that they cannot absorb any excess water from flash floods.
Not everywhere. Many peat moors are drying out and there is a program of restoration, creating small pools to capture water and let it keep the peat wet.
The thing with all these suggestions is that none are in isolation.
If we all do a little bit, every area of government, council, business and private do thier bit, then maybe we can get somewhere.
If we all do a little bit, every area of government, council, business and private do thier bit, then maybe we can get somewhere.
Somewhere as in Ryan air flying to Rome and landing 50 miles outside Rome?
Resolving climate change is being left in the hands of the average citizen, when it is Governments that need to lead, and they are not taking it seriously due to "interests".
In the meantime, the public are kind of being hoodwinked into believing that we can continue to consume at the rate we are if we make a few changes here and there...electric cars being the example. We are being fed this by the very corporations and organisations we are taking consumer goods from.
We are not going to stop climate change, only slow it, if we make fundamental change, of which quite possibly hasn't been seen before, and that is to change the one mechanism that has dominated our lives for centuries. That mechanism being Capitalism.
And since no one in positions of power is considering that, every other scheme, promise, conference to discuss climate change is mere fluff.
If we all do a little bit, every area of government, council, business and private do thier bit, then maybe we can get somewhere.
No we won’t. Doing a little bit distracts and diverts us from doing a lot. The only thing required is for us to demand the systemic change required to fix this.
I like how everyone has rocked up to Scotland for COP26 in their own planes.......
COP26: Aircraft carrying world leaders excite planespotters
We are saved!
India is going to be carbon neutral! (In 50 years time)
#kickingthecandowntheroad
in fairness, I can kinda understand china going for 2060 and india 2070.
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uk is about 4.5% for ref.
You do all know its way to late to fix this problem, all COP is about is managed decline. We passed the point of no return in the late 70s.
China/US/India will not change significantly over the next 50 years.
There is a deep seated (silent) belief that technology will save us at the 11th hour.
Boris on a dead cat bandwagon, Rest of the world paying lip service as they all know the decline in living standards/benefits is not an electable platform....
It can be slowed down, ration meat, petrol, diesal, travel and tax them into the ground to create the revenue needed. Not going to happen.
I assume we all read the last budget.
Yes, more stuff should be in glass and then get reused for the same product again
Maybe 5 or 6 standard jars in different sizes that every manufacturer has to use. They can be collected at supermarkets and re-used. Could even have a deposit like the old pop bottles.
This sort of thing is such incredibly low hanging fruit. The fact that it hasn't been made compulsory by government is a good sign that reducing consumption is really not important to them.
Marketing ftw! We need a bottle different from everyone else's to represent our brand!
Once swigged, it can be smashed up along with all the other colours in the recycling bin...
Another good policy would be to introduce legislation allowing the public execution of any board of directors engaging in planned obsolescence.
Oh, and Prince Charles and the rest of them get one house to live in.
The other spare ones can be turned into apartments for people to live in.
Not holiday in, live in.
That'll help the pressure on land for new builds.
I wouldn't single out the royals here, the same would apply to any other multiple home owners.
You would need to virtually impoverish most of the Western world and knock back China India etc back to the stone age and reduce the worlds population by a third. Reduce the amount of space (houses) to a minimum footprint. Ban international travel, tax all travel, ration meat, food, clothing, goods, tech.
The destruction of our current standards and economy.
The above is what is required.
We are not going to stop climate change, only slow it, if we make fundamental change, of which quite possibly hasn’t been seen before, and that is to change the one mechanism that has dominated our lives for centuries. That mechanism being Capitalism.
I doubt there is another system better than capitalism.
You want to live the life of Chinese Marxist?
You don't know what freedom means until you loss it all.
Human are not machine that can be switched on/off/controlled by the state.
You want to help the world? Innovate and come up with an alternative that is affordable to all. Let the people choose and not force on them.
Chewkw has just detailed why we are ****ed in a single post... quite impressive really.
old man with old ideas. who'd a thunk it. The 70s. 😆
Chewkw has just detailed why we are *ed in a single post… quite impressive really.
Not *ed, just lazy and moan a lot. LOL!
The problem is that society is being run for the benefit of capitalism, rather than capitalism being run for the benefit of society.
supernova
Free Member
The problem is that society is being run for the benefit of capitalism, rather than capitalism being run for the benefit of society.
No, the problem is CO2 and methane pollution.
Obvs.
Well, kinda needs saying, you can spend 500 years trying to overthrow the capitalist system, or you can go and actually reducing CO2 and methane emissions..
1960s actually...
Lets reconvene in 2050... i might still be here sat by the (very) sunny window... and see how much we have achieved.
Well you’re not going to achieve anything outside the dominant economic system, and if that system is organised in a way that makes solving the problem impossible, then you need to adjust the economic system, no?
depends if you class changing the fuel source of the system changing the system. same system different fuel source is more likely than anything more revolutionary.
Unfortunately @seosamh77 - that's a policy of failure.
Deep systemic change is the minimum requirement unfortunately.
Of course, it won't happen. We don't make it as a species. We lack the intellect to do the necessary.
Wot Cheveychase says... we are designed to fail.
chevychase
Free Member
We don’t make it as a species
😆
What if the problem isnt capitalism but democracy?
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/nov/01/the-big-idea-is-democracy-up-to-the-task-of-climate-change
.
Democracy is unfortunately the weak link in the change chain.
When a big enough event happens in China, they’ll fix their system overnight even if it’s hard for their people.* In the West our politicians will wail and gnash their teeth, but fail to do anything that will mean they definitely lose their next election.
It’s a dilemma.
* that’s not to say China is a good model for government, it’s not. I like being a democratic European, thanks.
Capitalism and Liberalism? Not great for "enforcement"
I think this is a pretty good take on the issue
aw oh, someones posted that dick peterson, threads a bogey. 😆
Btw that wasn't a good summary at all, he basically surmised it as it's difficult, so F it. He's an arse that you should never listen to again.
it's a long winded variation on this....
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/What-If-Its-A-Hoax-56a74f4c5f9b58b7d0e8f300.jpg)
The short version:
He’s an arse that you should never listen to again.
Very much this. Same goes for that ‘bunny hugging’ Bozo. At this time of the world we seem to have the very worst people to look up to. There was a perfect phrase that I remember from way back in the day:
‘Think global - act local’
Nowadays it seems to be ‘buy global - drive local’
Democracy is unfortunately the weak link in the change chain.
Kind of. How do we get better democracy? By educating the electorate. In almost all the world's problems the answer is education. It really is the bottom line.
Democracy is unfortunately the weak link in the change chain.
Which is why I stated earlier in the thread that if I was world dictator solving climate change would be a doddle.
We know what needs to change but nobody has the will to change it/doesn't actually want to change it and just offers up goals for 30 years time which are so far away they are no linked to any sort of reality.
He’s an arse that you should never listen to again.
Plus 1, blokes a turd
@trailwagger (while I observe that it’s an attractive and profitable position for Peterson/PragerU/Ben Shapiro Inc to poo-poo the issue and also to decry/doom-say efforts to address this problem which they also deny exists) fair enough, as long as you’re aware of whom/what you’re promoting?
Does Peterson really believe that global warming and climate change are faked, or not an issue, or not understood? Yes, he’s that intellectually arrogant, and is rewarded richly for being so, so he’s sticking with it.
Is he right about climate change? No, even less so than on most of the other topics he spouts off about. But it won’t stop him until his audience stops listening and roaring their approval.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/20/jordan-b-peterson-climate-change-denier-faux-lover-of-science/
depends if you class changing the fuel source of the system changing the system. same system different fuel source is more likely than anything more revolutionary.
Fuel isn't the only issue.
Our current system is built on the concept of consumption, consumerism and profits, all of which are the expense of the earth and its resources. This exponential growth can't continue if we as a species keep breeding and each wants to keep consuming at the rate we do.
Deep systemic change is the minimum requirement unfortunately.
+1
Our current system is built on the concept of consumption, consumerism and profits, all of which are the expense of the earth and its resources. This exponential growth can’t continue if we as a species keep breeding and each wants to keep consuming at the rate we do.
Exactly. Even simple things like meat production.
Could most of the world stop eating meat tomorrow - yes very easily. Will they, not a chance.
And that is before the excuses come in about whole industries being based around it, jobs, money etc,.
Could most of the world stop eating meat tomorrow – yes very easily. Will they, not a chance.
Perhaps someone should show how we would be able to grow enough for 7 billion people first, because thats maybe ok on paper but there are A the logistics of freeing up that much arable lands, the size of workforce to farm it, their needs- living etc, how all thats going to be paid for, where the fuel s going to come from for the millions of bits of farm machinery.
Etc etc etc.
No doubt I'll face abusive postings for suggesting it, but nobody has yet to actually prove it can be done and they certainly are missing out saying how many challenges that idea would need to solve and rather just waving over those questions without actually answering them
And take note, many of the greatest famines we've seen in the world are in countries where crops make up the staple diet.
The climate is changing and how would that affect crop growth. What happens if we have a bad run of weather and cannot feed millions of people, what then 😕
Maybe cut down more of the amazon to make space 😉
Incidentally, the Brazilian timber industry is 1/3 the size of Canada's, and less than half that of both Finland and Sweden. When it comes to cutting down forestry, Brazil is 4th on the list.
Everything is great in the imagination of an idea world, but I for one think it is completely unachievable.
It's a fairly pessimistic tone on this thread, seems like many believe we're not going to turn this around. So maybe we should give at least some attention to whatever the most likely outcome is, and how to mitigate the worst impacts. Beyond it being described as "disastrous" I'm not sure what the real life impact of this case is expected to be, anyone seen a good summary of the predictions ??
Beyond it being described as “disastrous” I’m not sure what the real life impact of this case is expected to be, anyone seen a good summary of the predictions ??
Do a search on 3 degree climate rise and you will get lots to read and watch.
Most land regions will see more hot days, especially in the tropics. At 1.5 degrees Celsius warming, about 14 percent of Earth’s population will be exposed to severe heatwaves at least once every five years, while at 2 degrees warming that number jumps to 37 percent. Extreme heatwaves will become widespread at 1.5 degrees Celsius warming.
From
NASA
the Brazilian timber industry is 1/3 the size of Canada’s
Are you talking about legal forestry?
Canada cuts, replants, cuts, replants. Yes Canada are clearing massive swaths of the boreal forest for oil sands which is really shitty, but isn't the main concern about amazon deforestation that its getting clear cut for cattle and feed for livestock and palm oil for shitty candy.
I'm a bit lost on your crop concerns though dyna-ti. Are you saying that cows are more resilient than crops to "a run of bad weather" can cows go without water and food and are a buffer against drought?
I'm interested to the factors behind not being able to feed people without meat?
I'm onboard with getting rid of massive cattle raising facilities. Meat only available locally through sustainable programs. Yes meat gets hideously expensive but so are truffles and consequently I don't eat those.
https://www.fao.org/gleam/results/en/
tbh personally I could probably be convinced to give up beef, I reckon that's probably a more achievable aim that giving up meat(although milk and cheese would be an effort too I guess). Doubt I could give up chicken tbh.
in general would should all try and reduce our meat consumption no doubt, but it's not a solution on it's own either.
Being UK specific, heat and travel emissions are probably much more of a concern for us.
Brazilian timber industry is 1/3 the size of Canada’s, and less than half that of both Finland and Sweden. When it comes to cutting down forestry, Brazil is 4th on the list
What are you trying to say?
I think there's quite a big difference between coping down fresh, virgin, old growth rainforest and cutting down trees that are part of a managed plantation with relatively quick growing pine.
Are you saying that cows are more resilient than crops to “a run of bad weather” can cows go without water and food and are a buffer against drought?
No Im not comparing cows to anything. Lets keep cows out of this 😆 Im just looking at the ability to grow the crops and the logistics of that.
I think there’s quite a big difference between coping down fresh, virgin, old growth rainforest and cutting down trees that are part of a managed plantation with relatively quick growing pine.
But if trees are so important, why then are they cutting any down ?. And its not something that takes a year to grow. 15-20 years for a tree from sapling to harvest.
So we could say then cutting down rainforest is A-OK, as long as we plant trees there in Brazil.
All we hear about is Brazil this, rainforest that, but nothing about the gigantic Canadian and Swedish and Finnish lumber industries. It sometimes looks like Brazil is getting the blame when the timber industry is chopping down ten time that amount yearly.
Brazil is a poor country, and that timber puts meat on the table. Canada et all are rich, very rich countries by comparison. Would it not be better to allow Brazil to utilize their cash crop, oh and plant new saplings, and Canada et all can diversify elsewhere.
Maybe cut down more of the amazon to make space
Most of which is being cleared for livestock. Still, at least it helps conform you dont know what your talking about
I'm actually slightly amused how quickly you reacted to the "eat less/no meat". Do you now have a range of copy and paste options and sit their waiting to pounce.
The difference between deforestation in the tropics and other places is that tropical rainforest grows incredibly quickly and absorbs far more carbon than at other latitudes. So a hectare of rainforest lost is far worse for global temperatures than a hectare of Canadian taiga.
Most of which is being cleared for livestock
And soya.
Brazil is projected to retain its position as the largest soybean producer over the next decade
Now who is it we know uses a lot of soya 😉
In total the UK annually imports approximately 3.2 million tonnes of soya bean equivalents directly in the form of soya beans, meal and oil.
Actually Piemonster 😕 I'm surprised you didn't know that.
It isn’t. Livestock is far far ahead of anything else. And no amount of vacuous whataboutery will change that.
Now who is it we know uses a lot of soya 😉
Your mate Billy bovine actually
Your mate Billy bovine actually
80% or more to feed livestock according to Google.
It isn’t. Livestock is far far ahead of anything else. And no amount of vacuous whataboutery will change that.
Wahstaboutery 😕 I spoke about crop production, and was faced by a question about cattle production. WTF has a question to do with crops got to do with cattle. Might as well ask a question about suss frames and have someone answer with Hardtail frames. Whataboutery you say. I say why not stick on topic and answer the bloody question instead of diverting into something else.
Your mate Billy bovine actually
Yup. Anyone else ?
Beyond it being described as “disastrous” I’m not sure what the real life impact of this case is expected to be, anyone seen a good summary of the predictions ??
From 11min 30secs
This is also worth remembering:
Also look up ‘Holocene extinction acceleration’
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/24/13596
*deleted*
Changing subject not even slightly, did anyone else watch The Trick?