[Closed] So can we call Edwarden Snowden a hero yet ?

robdixon- so it comes as a surprise that their emails werent actually secure?

the joke is that snowdens data was in no way secure, the US/Uk government only knew hed taken it after they read it in the papers

and snowden was just 1 of 483000 other private contractors that had access to this data and we have no way of knowing whats already been leaked to china, iran, etc etc

I think most of those 300 convicted were 'groomed' by the security services. Which does raise the issue of who is really behind 'terrorsim'.

robdixon - Member

It's worth remembering that nearly all of the 300+ britons convicted of terrorism related offences over the last 9 years have been detected through a combination of surveillance and intelligence.

Yep, and none of that could have happened without snooping on Angela Merkel's sexts.

Personally I think Snowdon is a bit of a dick, bit like Bradley Manning. Its one thing to nick a bit of specific information and release it but to steel whole swathes of unread unspecific data is just stupid. All of us on here would be the first ones to ask what MI6 and MI5 were doing if there was another 7/7, so making their job harder is not the best thing to do. Like it or not for intelligence to work there needs to be secrets.

agreed bugging Merkel;s phone is completely unacceptable and its fine if Snowdon just released this info but telling people how the authorities track terrorists only helps the terrorists.

Lastly what do we think GCHQ does with its massive headquarters and 1000's of staff?

It's worth remembering that nearly all of the 300+ britons convicted of terrorism related offences over the last 9 years have been detected through a combination of surveillance and intelligence.

It's also worth remembering that of that 300, some have been convicted of nothing more than owning a few books and writing a few poems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samina_Malik

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/13/uksecurity

It's also worth remembering that a 'combination of surveillance and intelligence' led to the murder of a completely innocent Brazilian electrician.

It's also worth remembering that quite a few convictions have been overturned.

It's also worth remembering that a 'combination of surveillance and intelligence' was absolutely useless in preventing the 7/7 attacks. And whilst there have been successes by the security services, far too often, a 'combination of surveillance and intelligence' is used in the wrong way towards people who should have the right to a private life and not be treated as 'suspects' or 'dodgy' simply because of their political leanings.

http://policespiesoutoflives.org.uk/
http://www.organizedrage.com/2013/09/uk-police-admit-involvement-in.html

And finally, it's well worth remembering that the security forces act with Public Consent, and at all times must be answerable to the very society they are charged with serving, not as secret police for those whose agendae serve only themselves, at the expense of Freedom and Democracy.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

I'm gobsmacked that America spies on the leader of a western government with no agenda against them. Didn't they carry out a risk assessment? What can you gain versus the damage if the Germans find out?

I imagine a few people are being fired in America over this lack of judgement.

Imagine hacking your friends email accounts to see what they say about you?

The guys a traitor simple as, you sign the documents to abide by a code, if you don't like it don't do it. Spying has always been a dirty business, and poeple always spy on everyone friends and foe. I'm sure the really reason France or German are kicking up a fuss is to deflect attention from the fact that their agencies were clearly rubbish at preventing it.

The terrorism thing is actually a distraction, the main worries will still be the likes of the Middle East, Korea, Russia, China etc. They are now laughing. However, it does make you wonder how much info they knew already if the NSA security was so lax.

I mean, if they've nothing to hide, what's the problem?

^This.

Snowden and Assange should be strung up. Traitors to their nations, the pair of them.

How come the Germans didn't find this out for themselves ? Reckon there should be a few Germans getting the sack over this lack of expertise.

And if they can't find the US tapping a mobile, what chance of them finding what the Chinese or Russians are up to?

As for the French ….pah ….. when did some US bashing ever do a french Politian any harm… God knows Hollande could do with all the help he can get right now.

I think the key point here is that we have a right to privacy. This applies to not only our government but to all governments- even the mighty US. Edward Snowden has shown, at massive personal sacrifice and entirely for our benefit, that the US government believes that we do not have a right to privacy and is acting accordingly. Just because it is easier to snoop on people's private lives it does not give you the right to do so.

All of us on here would be the first ones to ask what MI6 and MI5 were doing if there was another 7/7

Snowden and Assange should be strung up. Traitors to their nations, the pair of them.

im still struggling to see what exactly Snowden has revealed to these terrorists that may aid them?

anyone??

dragon - Member

The terrorism thing is actually a distraction, the main worries will still be the likes of the Middle East, Korea, Russia, China etc. They are now laughing.

Ah right, so what you're saying is that the intelligence agencies have been distracted by the opportunity to use terrorism as their excuse to increase intrusion into the lives of their own citizens, to the detriment of their activities against potentially hostile foreign powers? TBH that sounds a lot worse than the leaks.

[quote=hora ]Imagine hacking your friends email accounts to see what they say about you?
Doesn't everyone? 😳

The US spent 10's of millions trying to find evidence that the Manning leaks had put lives at risk, they couldn't find any. The supposed damage done by these leaks to espionage, counter terrorism and operatives lives only exists in the sound bites of politicians greedy for control.

The guys a traitor simple as, you sign the documents to abide by a code, if you don't like it don't do it.

Following orders is not an acceptable excuse, never has been and hopefully never will be. It is strange how we apply rules differently to nations we see as below us than we apply them to ourselves.

Northwind, yeah possibly but two wrongs don't make a right.

How did Assange betray Australia?

Cybicle +1

if the US was more ethical in their espionage

"Hello CIA here, would it be convenient if we bugged your calls? Possibly starting next Monday. Maybe around 3:30? I'll send round a letter confirming this arrangement with a form you can fill in to opt-out if you feel you don't want this arrangement in the future."

The US (and the Uk and the rest of Europe) could put more effort into not creating future enemies rather than being in a constant firefight. Although it is begining to look like much of that that firefight is in the imaginations of the security services.

breatheeasy - Member

if the US was more ethical in their espionage

"Hello CIA here, would it be convenient if we bugged your calls? Possibly starting next Monday. Maybe around 3:30? I'll send round a letter confirming this arrangement with a form you can fill in to opt-out if you feel you don't want this arrangement in the future."

"Hello NSA here, we are very sorry one of our agents informed you that we are illegally collecting every scrap of data you will ever produce. Luckily for us you seem to quite like this idea so would you like to sign up for our premium service with a free rectal examination thrown in"
*Disclaimer this information is open to abuse at any time now or in the future and may be shared with 3rd parties.

johnellison - Member

Snowden and Assange should be strung up. Traitors to their nations, the pair of them.

If you've got nothing to hide, why do you have curtains in your house?

Nations are just artificial political constructs. Better to be a supposed traitor to a nation (Snowden, Assange) than a traitor to humanity (Obama, Abbot).

Intelligence didn't help prevent 7/7 because they were busy setting it up! Total false flag event using patsies, nothing in the official story even adds up.

Oh dear Kimbers - did you actually read what I wrote? If so did you actually take a second to understand what I wrote before writing your response? - if you did you would have read that I was speculating on something to try to illustrate how these leaks may have contributed to actual deaths. I never once actually purported that the Nairobi attacks were a result of the leaks and I don't necessarily suspect it. Some people don't seem to be able to make the connection between the risk to life (innocent lives anywhere in the world and the lives of those in the spying industry) and the irresponsible actions of people like Snowdon. Does Snowdon really believe he is going to stop the US from spying? Is he so arrogant to think he can actually stop something so important to the security and commercial enterprise of a whole nation? At worse he'll cause a few months of embarrassment to the US and they'll carry on regardless.

I really don't buy into this issue that terrorism is somehow our fault. Its a ridiculous notion. Its like saying the woman dressed in a miniskirt was sexually abused because of the way she was dressed and its all her fault and deserves all she got - utterly ridiculous. We have the right to protect our way of life from those who would seek to harm us.

I'm not 'loving big brother' but realise that compromises have to me made in order to achieve security in what is an insecure world. I really do wish we lived in this idyllic world where peace and harmony reigns like some people think we do. The reality couldn't be further from the truth unfortunately.

Its like saying the woman dressed in a miniskirt was sexually abused because of the way she was dressed and its all her fault and deserves all she got - utterly ridiculous.

Yep, that's ridiculous.

I really don't buy into this issue that terrorism is somehow our fault. Its a ridiculous notion.

Terrorism is a very very small problem, fuel poverty is a bigger problem, more cyclist die every year than do from terrorism.

Admittedly terrorism is quite a big problem in, say Iraq, in fact it's a very big problem in Iraq. And guess who's responsible for that ?

Yep, you've got it....us !

[img] [/img]

If there was a Snowden here. No I dont mean the sexed up/Iraq. That wasnt a massive leak of assorted files.

How would we feel?

Just because its the US doesnt make it different.

If it happened here I'd want the fella flogged. Hes not bringing down an evil regime but hurting a whole countries interest no matter how good or bad the info proves.

UK soldiers sign up to serve and no matter what they think of a conflict etc they have to do their duty to the Crown.

No sympathy for Snowdens ultimate fate. None. Or shagger-Assange. As for Manning. I question his motives.

Obama got the nobel peace prize and authorizes drone strikes which regularly kill civilians including children... Cameron does the same; they both coat it in PR sugar and we swallow it obediently...

Snowden, Manning, Assange etc rather than feeding us sweeties that rot our teeth and diminish our health, feed us the less tasty but far healthier roughage of truth.

Eat yer greens kids and say thankyou for being treated responsibly, rather than buying into the junkfood dream of spin and lies.

Nobel Prizes for Snowden, Manning, Assange and all the others brave enough not to swallow the shite.

Not enough people speak in dietary metaphors.

Not enough people speak in dietary metaphors.

No shit...

Snowden, Manning, Assange etc rather than feeding us sweeties that rot our teeth and diminish our health, feed us the less tasty but far healthier roughage of truth.

Jivehoneyjive. We KNOW Obama etc do this as its open information/not hidden. Its a different argument when you release a massive tranch of information about a country. Even a thick **** would know that country will then come after you. Its unforgivable for a citizen to do it to his own country

UK soldiers sign up to serve and no matter what they think of a conflict etc they have to do their duty to the Crown.

Personally, I feel that one's own moral judgement must take precedent over all else, otherwise people simply fall back on the Nuremburg defence; [i]"Befehl ist Befehl"[/i].

What Edward(en) Snowdon has done has been for the greater good of humanity, at the expense of the US regime. A regime, let's face it, that is corrupt and morally and ethically bankrupt, and exists mainly to serve an elite few.

So yes, he's a hero. No question.

Is it really such a surprise that governments spy on each other? Im sure Germany spies on other countries as well as its own citizens, as does every nation in the world.

Snowden isnt a hero or a traitor; hes just a stupid person who found that he could steal a load of secret data and sell it to a newspaper, in some misguided notion of doing the right thing.

Again over-egging a post. Why is serving in say Afghanistan in an unwinnable war akin to the nuremberg defence? A soldier can think its a dangerous and pointless assignment without resorting to genocide/destroying all gypsies/Jews etc. Jesus.

The point is that soldiers are required to exercise independent judgement and can't just blindly follow orders "no matter what they think". [i]Jesus[/i].

UK soldiers sign up to serve and no matter what they think of a conflict etc they have to do their duty to the Crown.

hora - Member
Its unforgivable for a [s]citizen[/s] country to do it to [s]his [/s]it's own [s]country[/s] citizens

ftfy

How would we feel?

Its unforgivable for a citizen to do it to his own country

you seem to be thinking current regimes policies and country are exactly the same thing here.

hora - Member

If there was a Snowden here. No I dont mean the sexed up/Iraq. That wasnt a massive leak of assorted files.

How would we feel?

I'd feel bloody outraged if it was revealed that our government have no respect for their own citizens, the rule of law, or for their international allies.

I'd also be shocked to discover that having gathered a terrifying amount of information, they do damn nearly nothing at all to protect it, giving it to random contractors and then letting them wander off with it. If I handled confidential information like the US government does, I'd get the sack, and my employer would get booted up the arse, and the most sensitive thing I can get my hands on is exam results.

And then, I'd be even more disgusted if instead of fixing the issues it unearthed, they put all their efforts (and my money) into demonising the person that exposed their guilty secret, and had the temerity to claim it was done in my name.

Was that not what you expected?

Also,

hora - Member

Even a thick **** would know that country will then come after you.

Er, yes, of course he knew they'd come after him. Yet he did it anyway. It's not stupidity when you stand up for what you believe in, and find the strength to do what's right.

That's turtle power.

Don't worry guys, I've just realized, the data protection act makes all of this totally harmless... nothing to see here, GET BACK TO WORK (and pay for stuff that WE manufacture for PROFIT)

So, did anyone see that Russell Brand thing?

Northwind +1

Hora -1