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Democracy is, of course, a one off event. That’s why I don’t understand why people keep bleating on about the SNP. We had the vote and the SNP won so that means they are our government now and forever. Isn’t it time to get over it and move on.
That’s how democracy works, isn’t it
It would be if the snp ever won another referendum...
Sturgeon is the only politician I have heard that when given a question on a tricky topic was prepared to say ( I paraphrase) " Thats a tricky question, there are no simple answers, my personal instinct is this, party policy needs to be sorted out at conference" rather than pretending there is a simple solution that can be expressed in a soundbite and pretending they know all the answers
the SNP is also the only party I have heard apologise for policy errors ( Salmond over Trump)
To me this is one of the key reasons for their success. they sound like they actually believe what they say and sound genuine unlike Labour in Scotland who keep on having people make statements you can tell they do not believe - when opposing SNP policy by kneejerk for example.
It would be if the snp ever won another referendum…
First of all, the independence movement is much broader than the SNP (which is one of the reasons any "once in a generation" statemt from a politician is irrelevant) but, even supposing a Yes vote happened, there would be nothing to stop a pro-dependency movement agitating to rejoin with the rUK. Not that I can think of any examples of that scenario playing out.
lotto
But for my sake, please refrain from your use of dialect, or has this request let you know even more about me?
Yes, because it is not dialect, and your request is made from an assumption of cultural superiority.
"Centuries of strife have led some Brits to regard the Scots language and its speakers as inferior or derivative of the dominant English culture. But Scots has a pretty good claim to being its own language; it has its own regional dialects, and is as related to modern English as Dutch is to Norwegian. “It’s as absurd to call Scots a dialect of English as it is to call English a dialect of Scots,” wrote late Scottish poet Norman MacCaig."
Surely if you are going to discuss independence with a resident of a country, then it should be in whatever language they choose to speak, not yours. So add bad manners to what it tells us.
Epicyclo...did I read on another thread you haven't actually lived in scotland for 30 years?
If so, No wonder you are so keen on independence.. you dont need to actually deal with the consquenses!
Are you Sean Connery per chance?
Epicyclo…did I read on another thread you haven’t actually lived in scotland for 30 years?
LOL, that's definitely wrong.
Good points……life here is generally pretty good. All achieved while being part of the UK.
I'm not sure that all the folk at the food banks, those being repatriated against their will and all those suffering/about to suffer due to English Nationalism would agree with you.
LOL, that’s definitely wrong
Probably yes..I was just going on this comment from the flooding thread..
Having lived in the tropics for 30 years where we get monsoonal rain, I amazed at how little rain it takes to cause flooding in the country
TBF, Epi is quite [s] old[/s] mature. I'm sure he's lived for 30 years on each of the continents.
KennyP / Scotroutes - the story of the Zeilsdorfs at laggan stores perfectly shows how policies designed in London damage scotland. A small story but oh so illustrative.
^, yep - that needs a explanatory link here as i imagine many folk will not be aware of the specific issue.
Utterly ****ing despicable hounding of the family, their wee/(but tardis like inside) store was a brilliant boon for the area
A similar tale on Arran. Although Arran cheese man got his wish..presumably he's gonna help pay for jetties for yachties..
The Zeilsdorfs, and cases like that, are pretty appalling, but that's not a reason for Scotland separating from the rest of the UK. It's a case for changing the existing laws, or applying them with a bit of compassion.
policies designed in London damage scotland.
Loads of policies designed in London that Scotland benefits from. NHS for example. Planned and implemented by that evil Westminster.
NHS for example. Planned and implemented by that evil Westminster.
Do you think the NHS wouldn't have come into force without Westminster? Bevans NHS was only implemented after a service was already covering half of Scotland.
that’s not a reason for Scotland separating from the rest of the UK. It’s a case for changing the existing laws, or applying them with a bit of compassion.
Hmm - I can think of one way we might change the existing laws to better apply to Scotlands needs.
kennyP - you are never going to get Westminster to change laws like that on immigration - they have to pander to their hard right / racist base
Its a classic example of how Westminster ignores Scotlands needs
Do you think the NHS wouldn’t have come into force without Westminster? Bevans NHS was only implemented after a service was already covering half of Scotland.
The problem is we can never know. There are so many variables implied by "without Westminster" it becomes impossible to know what may have happened.
I was just making the point that millions of Scots have had their lives improved by decisions and policies designed and implemented by Westminster. Yes, there will have been bad things too of course, same with any government in any country.
There is an SNP driven narrative that Westminster is this nasty place, out to stamp it's evil colonial boot all over poor old downtrodden Scotland (read any independence forum and you'll find those very phrases). The reality is far different. In fact speak to many English people and you'll find they think Westminster is overly generous to Scotland (and Wales and NI).
kennyP – you are never going to get Westminster to change laws like that on immigration – they have to pander to their hard right / racist base
Actually it's pretty simple. The country just elects another government. Those immigration laws haven't existed for ever. They are a very recent thing.
Its a classic example of how Westminster ignores Scotlands needs
The Barnett formula. A classic example of how Westminster recognises Scotland's needs.
kennyp
The Barnett formula. A classic example of how Westminster recognises Scotland’s needs.
Only if you look at it through orange coloured glasses.
Really Kenny? the Barnett formula is under constant attack and is manipulated all the time to reduce Scotlands spending. Yes many folk down south think Scotland gets too much money - thats because the lies are fed to them constantly by the press. An independent Scotland would be richer so that is a nonsense arguement
Ironic isn't it. What this thread shows is that is is, in fact, the Unionists that don't like taking responsibility. They'd much rather someone else did.
tpbiker
…did I read on another thread you haven’t actually lived in scotland for 30 years?
Lived in Australia for 34 years, but have been back here for 16.
Coming from Scotland, the thing I found amazing about Australia was that it wasn't ruled by its next door neighbour New Zealand or Indonesia, but Australians were able to decide their priorities for themselves.
It felt good living in a country with localised democracy like that.
Really quite a revolutionary idea, and I suspect democracy would work quite well for Scotland too...
Actually it’s pretty simple. The country just elects another government. Those immigration laws haven’t existed for ever. They are a very recent thing.
And yet, England continually elects tory governments who ramp that kind of thing up.
Honestly, if English people would stop doing that, there wouldn't be an independence movement.
Ironically, if you want the union to stay intact, don't vote for the Unionist parties.
If you can’t run a family & home on £50k you’re doing something far wrong.
That’s a lot of money and leaves plenty of wriggle room for modest luxuries.
Can somebody tell me in which universe an ordinary person can earn £50k/year, I’d very much like to go live there. That’s more than twice what I earn.
Hi, I do.
Top of my pay scale as a nuclear plant operator. Minimum qualifications for the role were 3 GCSEs.
I know plenty of folk at sea or working offshore earning similar money, marine engineers used to be qualified at HND level, now a foundation degree.
I'm very open to the possibility that independence could be good for Scotland in a whole host of policy areas. It would definitely be easier to align policies with the consensus in Scotland.
It's pretty much pointless to try and argue pro / anti independence based on micro policy areas.
The concern for me is that a lot of the "will of the people" arguments for / against independence gloss over the flaws with liberal democracies in general. The belief that liberal democracies can manage profound disagreements without resorting to authoritarianism is suspect.
If we're not careful we could go from an uneasy, imperfect existence in the union to a very difficult one outside of it. We will continue to all exist on the same small island but will have lost a good way of muddling through without needing to kill each other.
It's far from perfect now for sure, but there is a real risk of making it worse.
tomd
It’s far from perfect now for sure, but there is a real risk of making it worse.
The certainty is that by staying in the Union things are guaranteed to get very much worse.
If we are independent we can choose our own responses to the coming challenges, and not have the responses that suit the English majority but damage Scotland.
Yeah but, you know, war.
The concern for me is that a lot of the “will of the people” arguments for / against independence gloss over the flaws with liberal democracies in general. The belief that liberal democracies can manage profound disagreements without resorting to authoritarianism is suspect.
If we’re not careful we could go from an uneasy, imperfect existence in the union to a very difficult one outside of it. We will continue to all exist on the same small island but will have lost a good way of muddling through without needing to kill each other.
You've basically summed up why I'm pro-independence. In the past, before the EU, it made sense to be part of a large country with aligned standards and freedom of movement. It allows the economy to thrive.
The downside is that trying to keep 60 million people happy is almost impossible. Democracy has it's limits when it comes to population size. At some point you introduce a significant democratic deficit as we have in the UK.
I can't say for sure but I think the ideal population for a country is around 5 to 15 million. Obviously it depends on cultural factors and how much the population's values are aligned. Even small countries can struggle if there are significant cultural splits as in Belgium.
Nowadays, within the EU, it makes sense to be a small country. Freedom of trade and movement means that what you lose in autonomy you can make up for in scale.
Of course, Germany manages and I think that's largely down to their federalised system. If the UK were to become more federalised with regions of 5 to 15 million then I might rethink independence but to me, with the way things are, it's a no brainer to be a small country within the EU or in the EFTA.
With a country the size of the UK, the only way to keep the population's culture and views more or less aligned is with a healthy program of propaganda, political suppression, and cultural re-education.
The belief that liberal democracies can manage profound disagreements without resorting to authoritarianism is suspect.
What "authoritarianism" did we resort to to manage the profound disagreements of Brexit?
If we’re not careful we could go from an uneasy, imperfect existence in the union to a very difficult one outside of it. We will continue to all exist on the same small island but will have lost a good way of muddling through without needing to kill each other.
The union is a good way of avoiding the need to "kill reach other"?
You appear to be suggesting we live on the brink of deadly conflict that can only be avoided through an authoritarian union...
That's just daft.
Can somebody tell me in which universe an ordinary person can earn £50k/year,
Many many ordinary people earn 50k a year. You don't have to be doing anything remotely outstanding to earn that type of cash. Nor do you need to be particularly well qualified.
Is boasting about turning up for work drunk taking responsibility.
The certainty is that by staying in the Union things are guaranteed to get very much worse.
How I love this sort of statement! What about this one
The certainty is that by leaving in the Union things are guaranteed to get very much worse.
Most people - pro and anti independence agree of this statement. As an independent nation Scotland will have the opportunity to make it's own decisions, but it will not make the average Scot better off. At best they will get no worse.
The certainty is that by staying in the Union things are guaranteed to get very much worse.
Why? I doesn't seem certain unless you make all kinds of assumptions. If Scotland becomes independent there are different possibilities, but in no way will Scotland be free from England. Culturally, economically or physically.
What “authoritarianism” did we resort to to manage the profound disagreements of Brexit?
Brexit is a great example. Did the referendum sort things out? Did everyone feel good afterwards, have big hug and carry on? Nope, it just made an intractable problem more intractable and set the scene for what's coming now.
We've now entered the authoritarian phase of Brexit. Boris will solve the problem by imposing his government's Brexit with very little input from the electorate.
You appear to be suggesting we live on the brink of deadly conflict that can only be avoided through an authoritarian union…
I'm suggesting that there is more value to what we have than many realise.
I can’t say for sure but I think the ideal population for a country is around 5 to 15 million. Obviously it depends on cultural factors and how much the population’s values are aligned. Even small countries can struggle if there are significant cultural splits as in Belgium.
Scotland is a very divided country. Between the protestants/loyalist/unionist communities and the English migrants there is a large minority who wouldn't be keen. I'm thinking we'd be more like a bitter, divided small country like Latvia than the Netherlands.
Richest few % of the population earn £50000 pa
Scotland is a very divided country. Between the protestants/loyalist/unionist communities and the English migrants there is a large minority who wouldn’t be keen. I’m thinking we’d be more like a bitter, divided small country like Latvia than the Netherlands.
That's the too wee and too stupid arguments out of the way. Just add something about affordability and you'll have the full set.
Richest few % of the population earn £50000 pa
Yes, but you can be "ordinary" and earn that.
Tomd
As an English migrant to Scotland there is no divide between us and native Scots bar in the mind of a few bigots
As an English migrant to Scotland there is no divide between us and native Scots bar in the mind of a few bigots
I met plenty when I lived there. I got let off being from the NE and not a "proper" Englishman.
To pretend there is no dislike of the English in general is not true. maybe it was due to the area I lived in and the work I did?
Maybe it was just you and your nationality was a cover up? 😉
gobuchul
To pretend there is no dislike of the English in general is not true. maybe it was due to the area I lived in and the work I did?
Or your attitude? (No disrespect intended, it's often inadvertent)
35 years for me and 50 for my parents says different. It's there in the tiny minority of those bigots again
I forgot that Scottish Nationalism is all fluffy, not like those other types of Nationalism. It might look and sound like other sorts of Nationalism, but it's definitely not because reasons.
I guess I've spent to much time in Hartlepool with English Nationalists. Change the accent and tshirt and there's not a lot to choose.
Can somebody tell me in which universe an ordinary person can earn £50k/year,
A universe where university tuition is provided free of charge by the government.
That’s how I did it and that’s how my kids’ll do it too if they want to.
Or your attitude? (No disrespect intended, it’s often inadvertent)
Like I said, it wasn't aimed at me. A lot of dislike towards colleagues who were English and towards the other part of organisation that was based in Southern England.