[Closed] Snipers at Dallas BLM rally

I can't make the words fit the meaning often ascribed to them (i.e. protect yourself from a corrupt / authoritarian government).

It was an extensive part of the public discourse at the time, see for example the 'Federalist' papers 28 and 29.

NRA [i]another mass shooting then. Just think how the outcome could have been different in the victims had be armed and could have defended themselves. If there were more guns this wouldn't have happened.[/i]

Common sense [i]but the victims were armed cops[/i].

NRA [i]errrrrr. More guns![/i]

Shame that, even today, he NRA will not be capable of seeing how senseless its own argument is.

It showed a large group of black guys who had effectively formed a militia. They were marching down the streets with full camo gear, body armour and assault rifles. When interviewed they said that they had to do this as they were effectively at war, and this was the only way to defend their communities.

The police in US are being trained by the military according to an article on the Register this morning. They get all the trigger-happy stuff the the US forces are renowned for and none of the 'rules of engagement' training. Hence the shaven-headed clown knocking people to the floor and why 'The Brothers' above consider themselves under an occupation and react accordingly.

Utterly tragic, it seems this cycle of violence is no where near being resolved.

The Dallas police have just said in a news conference that they used a bomb to kill one of the cornered suspects after negotiations failed. I think when a society gets to the point where the police are at least as well armed as the military, and dress the same, then you really need to step back and and have a good hard look.

**** mental
Im sure the answer from congress will be no more legislation and more guns

http://donotshoot.us/ collects stories of Police abuses in America

[I] I think when a society gets to the point where the police are at least as well armed as the military, and dress the same, then you really need to step back and and have a good hard look. [/I]

+1

Looking on from Western Europe (still in the EU), and the UK in particular, once again the carrying and use of potent weapons by the public to murder and the Police response -robot delivered explosives to kill a suspect- both appear absolutely ludicrous.

The killing of members of the public by US Police (and the numbers killed every year), quite apart from race, are shocking.

There is something very wrong.

Fewer guns really is the way forward, surely?

Their 2nd Amendment is anachronistic nonsense.

This former senator is trying to defuse the situation (or something)...

[img] [/img]

he results provide evidence of a significant bias in the killing of unarmed black Americans relative to unarmed white Americans, in that the probability of being {black, unarmed, and shot by police} is about 3.49 times the probability of being {white, unarmed, and shot by police} on average.

[url= http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854#abstract0 ]A Multi-Level Bayesian Analysis of Racial Bias in Police Shootings at the County-Level in the United States, 2011–2014[/url]

You can see why the movements that are going on exist. There's a problem with the US police and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of solutions. America needs to have a long and serious conversation about race, gun and the police, but it's not going to happen any time soon 🙁

Their is no more a problem with racism in the 'US Police' than there is with 'Muslims' being terrorists. Which means that of course there is a problem but if you're going to codify the story as 'all police' then you're no better than those who claim 'all Muslisms' are terrorists.

the police are a sub set of society just like ISIS are [ of the muslim community]

Can I say all of ISIS are bad? They are all racist against non muslims?
If i can then I can say the same about the police as an organisation

To be clear i dont think the argument that all the police are racist is either true or helpful I just think your comparison is a poor one.
Its an ok point to make as it is theoretically possible that all the police are racist

Given the disproportionate death and incarcerations rates for Black americans its hard to argue the service on a whole is anything other than racist. That does not man every copper is.

For clarity I am discussing the US police not the UK police

For clarity I am discussing the US police not the UK police

Yes, I think that's a given but still useful to state.

Its an ok point to make as it is theoretically possible that all the police are racist

I would argue that empirically speaking that is [u]impossible[/u] because you're not dealing with an absolute characteristic. Theoretically it could be possible for the set of all police officers to be white/black/male/female ertc because they are finite, discrete characteristics.

Racism or bias is not remotely finite; it's an abstracted concept based on observed behaviour, values and beliefs and as such, while it is obvious at the extremes, there are many shades of grey before you get there.

Given the disproportionate death and incarcerations rates for Black americans its hard to argue the service on a whole is anything other than racist.

What has been focused on in the reporting is the difference in the rate of deaths between blacks and whites. What has not been commented on is the absolute number itself.

There are over 1 million people working in law enforcement in the US and of those about 765,000 have front line powers of arrest. There have been 136 deaths of black people at the hands of the police in 2015. Assuming there aren't any individuals reposnible for more than one of those, that means you're making a judgement on the entire US police force as being 'racist' based on the actions of 0.013% of the workforce.

It that's not biggotry and prejudice I don't know what is.

But, it is clear that there is a problem. Of course there is as aferall, the rate at which black people are killed is a lot higher than for whites. Most of the informed commentators in the US seem to have shifted the way they encode the story from being based on outright racism, to in built bias based on perceived threat. That still makes it a problem, but it's not remotely the same problem as 'the police force is institutionally racist'.

But, it is clear that there is a problem. Of course there is as aferall, the rate at which black people are killed is a lot higher than for whites.

I found this jaw dropping - the dominance of homicide vs suicide between black and white gun deaths 😯

[IMG] [/IMG]

I found this jaw dropping - the dominance of homicide vs suicide between black and white gun deaths

Also, the current troubles seem to revolve around black vs white. Wikipedia (yeah, I know, but I'm reasonably confident isn't far off the mark here) says that Hispanics are 17% of the population, whereas black Americans are about 13%. Is there a similar disparity in Hispanic deaths?

There are over 1 million people working in law enforcement in the US and of those about 765,000 have front line powers of arrest. There have been 136 deaths of black people at the hands of the police in 2015. Assuming there aren't any individuals reposnible for more than one of those, that means you're making a judgement on the entire US police force as being 'racist' based on the actions of 0.013% of the workforce.

You are simply trying to divert attention from the issue - as seen from the data Geetee, the American police are institutionally racist.

Neither is it just about deaths caused by the police, let's quote wiki shall we?

The issue of policies that target minority populations in large cities, also known as Stop and Frisk and arrest quotas, as practiced by the NYPD, have receded from media coverage due to lawsuits that have altered the practice.[42] In Floyd vs City of New York, a landmark ruling that created an independent Inspector General's office to oversee the NYPD, the federal judge called a whistleblowers recordings of superiors use of "quotas" the 'smoking gun evidence' that police were racially profiling and violating civilians' civil rights.[43] The police officer at the center of the case settled with the city for $1.1million and in a separate case won an additional settlement against the hospital where he was involuntarily confined after cops retaliated and unlawfully placed him in a psych ward for reporting fudged stats in his precinct. After taking office the current mayor of NYC declined to continue litigating stop and frisk practices and the numbers of minorities stopped under the practice dropped dramatically.[44] The use of quotas to pad arrest figures also has fallen after lawsuits exposed the practice as carried on by drug enforcement officers.[45][46]

A 2013 study using J. Philippe Rushton's IQ findings alone found that after accounting for intelligence and crime history, no sentencing differences by race were found.[47][48] The Southern Poverty Law Center have found that since 2008 after Barack Obama's election into office, racist hate groups have increased above 400%.[49] Racism at the institutional level dies hard, and is still prevalent in many U.S. institutions including law enforcement and the criminal justice system.[49] Frequently these institutions use racial profiling along with greater police brutality.[49] The greatest disparity is how capital punishment is disproportionately applied to minorities and especially to blacks.[49] The gap is so wide it undermines any legitimacy of the death penalty along with the integrity of the whole judicial system.[49]

But, it is clear that there is a problem. Of course there is as aferall, the rate at which black people are killed is a lot higher than for whites. [b] Most of the informed commentators in the US seem to have shifted the way they encode the story from being based on outright racism, to in built bias based on perceived threat.[/b] That still makes it a problem, but it's not remotely the same problem as 'the police force is institutionally racist'.

That is racism though, isn't it. And now - I'm sure that you will post a graph showing crime levels in the black community are much higher - to prove why people feel more threatened by black people. Despite the fact that crime is associated with economic standing not race and the black community have historically and still are to a lesser extend - kept from attaining a better economic standing within the US.

Assuming there aren't any individuals reposnible for more than one of those, that means you're making a judgement on the entire US police force as being 'racist' based on the actions of 0.013% of the workforce.

It that's not biggotry and prejudice I don't know what is.

But, it is clear that there is a problem. Of course there is as aferall, the rate at which black people are killed is a lot higher than for whites.

While I understand the #blacklivesmatter movement, have they been as quick to decry this as a racist hate crime?

Regardless whether he felt that revenge was needed against the police force, he's not targeted the officer involved in any of the deaths perpetrated by police.

#alllivesmatter

While I understand the #blacklivesmatter movement, have they been as quick to decry this as a racist hate crime?

Yes, yes they have.

Btw #alllivesmatter is a hashtag used by the teaparty lot to undermine the movement.

[img] [/img]

#alllivesmatter is a trope used by racists 😀

I think the stats are 1 Police office dies from a shooting per week in the US. So whilst 50 is far far lower than the number of deaths as a result of police use of force it is a significant number

General reporting today is the shooter acted alone and was an ex volunteer/part-time soldier with tours of Afghanistan. He was "blown up" by a remote control device after he refused to surrender

General reporting today is the shooter acted alone and was an ex volunteer/part-time soldier with tours of Afghanistan. [b]He was "blown up" by a remote control device after he refused to surrender[/b]

American policing tactics

Agreed its an attempt to portray those who say black lives matter as racists and deflect from the very real issue that racism is part of the problem here and the manifestation of it is dead black bodies. Of course all lives matters but its clack ones who are losing them disproportionately and THIS DOES MATTER.

These events are like this generations to kill a mocking bird. Pretending their is no problem is head shakingly head in the sands territory.

#alllivesmatter may be used by racists or tea party supporters, but as far as I know hashtags aren't copyright of any one group. The message remains the same.

You can come up with a statistic that favours one group over another, and someone will be along to point out the flaw in the numbers.

White, black, Asian, Hispanic, Martian, everyone of these groups will have a few spangles that think they're put upon by whatever other group and we end up in a fight fire with fire situation like this.

As usual the real issues are never dealt with, racial profiling, police brutality, gun culture, segregation from all sides. We'll be lucky if an answer is ever found in our lifetime

#alllivesmatter may be used by racists or tea party supporters, but as far as I know hashtags aren't copyright of any one group. The message remains the same.

You can come up with a statistic that favours one group over another, and someone will be along to point out the flaw in the numbers.

[b]White, black, Asian, Hispanic, Martian, everyone of these groups will have a few spangles that think they're put upon by whatever other group and we end up in a fight fire with fire situation like this.[/b]

LOL, that's hilarious. Hundreds of years of oppression and systemic racism are a few "spangles" are they?

racial profiling, police brutality, gun culture, segregation from all sides.

I'm sorry but where are all the black police departments beating up black people and racially profiling whites?

You're just further confirming the point that the hastage #alllivesmatter is used to undermine valid issues.

as far as I know hashtags aren't copyright of any one group. The message remains the same.

You can come up with a statistic that favours one group over another, and someone will be along to point out the flaw in the numbers.

White, black, Asian, Hispanic, Martian, everyone of these groups will have a few spangles that think they're put upon by whatever other group and we end up in a fight fire with fire situation like this

Yes its complicated, yes there are other factors but this is like over Steven Lawrence and the Police need to address their issue so they can do their job of serving society. We wont get there if they pretend their is no problem.

While I understand the #blacklivesmatter movement, have they been as quick to decry this as a racist hate crime?

Regardless whether he felt that revenge was needed against the police force, he's not targeted the officer involved in any of the deaths perpetrated by police.

#alllivesmatter

+1

Sometimes people forget the we are all human. Some people think claiming a moral high ground based on colour / race is ok. Other people may construe this as being racist.
Its a shame that justice cant be used effectively to get to the bottom of it all

It's incredibly difficult for white people who don't have the experiences that so many black Americans have to understand how they feel and why they feel that way. Often, attempts to describe those experiences is met with a push back, how ever unintended it may be. [url= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/good-men-project/why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism_b_7183710.html ]This is a great article on the subject[/url].

I know personally, I can't ever really understand how someone who's had a to deal with racism their who life feels about the police or the structures that govern their day to day life. There is a genuine fear when having to deal with the police that just should not be there. It's not unfounded either, you only have to look at any number of studies to see there is a problem. Trying to deny it, or push it on to 'a few bad apples' does not help. No one is saying that every police officer is racist, but we need to accept there's an institutional bias at work and try to mitigate that.

A girl I know (but not well) has been recounting some of her personal dealings with growing up as a black person in North America and it's heart breaking reading. It made me personally realise that while society has come along way, there's still a long long way to go.

Although I think we have experienced prejudice in ours lives no matter what race / sex we are. That is not in the same level but equally other races will have the same in their countries like the aborigines in Australia.

The plight of racism exists everywhere and push back is not limited to americans.

Although I think we have experienced prejudice in ours lives no matter what race / sex we are. That is not in the same level but equally other races will have the same in their countries like the aborigines in Australia.

The plight of racism exists everywhere and push back is not limited to americans.

This is just whataboutery. No one has said that no one else faces prejudice, or that's it's limited to Americans. I would say though, that as a white, lower middle class male, the amount of prejudice and discrimination I have faced is practically none and I'd feel embarrassed to even think about trying to down play the institutional biasses that still clearly exist.

that as a white, lower middle class male

You're making the classic error here of presuming that the only prejudice or bias that people experience or is worth documenting is based on class, gender or ethnicity (or indeed sexuality though you don't highlight this I'm sure you would include it).

Just because the prejudices and biases society exhibits aren't easily categorised against externally visible characteristics doesn't make them any less pernicious or painful for those they are directed to. I think if a lot people get angry with how vocal some pressure groups are about their own experiences of victimhood it's not because they don't think they are in some way undeserving of sympathy or redress, it's because their own status as victims is ignored or not recognised.

Why does everyone have to be a victim?

I'm a white male - there's petty much nothing I can possibly feel victimised about, the whole of society is pretty much built by and around people like me. Trying to claim that white people have any inkling of what it's like to be black is whataboutery.

Why does everyone have to be a victim?

I'm a white male - there's petty much nothing I can possibly feel victimised about

That might be true for you. Possibly you've genuinely had an easy life. But you're naively assuming your experience of being a white [middle class, straighjt] male' as being an entirely consistent with all other white middle class, straight men.

I suspect you believe that such a group is entirely homogenous, when of course it's not. There may be a ruling cabal of 'white middle class straight men' by and for which the world has been constructed, but that set is defined by many more variables than just those we've defined here. There are most definitely the right kind of such men and the wrong kind and your experience of life if you fall into the later could just as easily be defined as that of a 'victim', as someone who is black, or gay or female.

Personality characteristics, mental health, motivation, behaviour, circumstance and your early life experiences all play a huge part in differentiating the individual's experience of life, their chances of being successful or of feeling integrated and accepted by society.

Experiences are not homogenous. Barack Obama's experience of being a black African American are clealy not remotely consistent with that of say Rodney King or any of the other disenfranchised black men that have been killed at the hands of the police.

I'm a white male - there's petty much nothing I can possibly feel victimised about

Oh, I dunno, [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/tomorrow-is-independence-day ]I think you found your cause[/url] 😉

Ha - that's my point though, I don't feel victimised about being Scottish or whatever.

Geetee, everyone gets treated differently because of how others perceive us, that's a given - but it's on a different scale to how people are treated because they're black. Obama is a good example, really - what other president has faced repeated dog-whistle questioning about their parentage?

This is why I get uncomfortable when some people call anti-Scottish comments "racist" - they're not racist, they're ignorant and annoying. But maybe that's just because I'm confident enough to tell anyone like that to f*** off.

You're making the classic error here of presuming that the only prejudice or bias that people experience or is worth documenting is based on class, gender or ethnicity (or indeed sexuality though you don't highlight this I'm sure you would include it).

You're making the classic error of conflating prejudice with racism.

http://sociology.about.com/od/Ask-a-Sociologist/fl/Whats-the-Difference-Between-Prejudice-and-Racism.htm

I find it interesting to note that a lot of the people denying the validity of the BLM movement in this thread, were prominent brexiters.

You're making the classic error of conflating prejudice with racism.

Well semantically they are different but then if you think that that difference is important and as such denudes the importance or relevance of the individual's experience of other forms of prejudice that arent racially determined then that argument applies equally to islamaphobia or homophobia. But I don't think that's what you're saying. So let's just agree that prejudice in all forms is wrong and morally repugnant.

Well semantically they are different but then if you think that that difference is important and as such denudes the importance or relevance of the individual's experience of other forms of prejudice that arent racially determined then that argument applies equally to islamaphobia or homophobia. But I don't think that's what you're saying. So let's just agree that prejudice in all forms is wrong and morally repugnant.

Let's use reducto ad absurdum to get to the heart of your argument, do you think that your experiences of prejudice compare to those of black slaves in the deep south of America during the 1800's? And if you do, I assume then that they should have been good, quiet slaves because you also experienced prejudice?

Tell you what, though, as member of a minority that only makes up around 10% of the population, I find tangible ways that the world is built to make things harder for me all the time.

It's tough being left-handed.

do you think that your experiences of prejudice compare to those of black slaves in the deep south of America during the 1800's

Impossible for me to know since I cannot experience another man's experience.