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It's not a warranty issue.
Correct Cougar
Its about legal rights. If the cambelt or chain has failed before the service interval then it seems to be to either be a manufacturing fault or a serving fault. As its been main dealer serviced then in either case its up to the dealer to repair at their cost onerous tho that is
You want new car warranty buy a new car
Somehow doesn't seem relevent here when it hasn't come close to it's design statement. Either the engineering team was incompetent -either the design or the bench test criteria or the materials are not coming in to spec.
Not only has it failed early but it seems to have negated any safety factor that any eng team would be working to....not sure what the automotive industry works to but 1.2x standard in mine with more (up to 10x ) in safety critical process.
Correlated with the number of failures- this isn't a 1 off.
Absolutely agree with you if you have self serviced /used a backstreet garage- dealer has no idea what has been used regardless of the service book......as a wise man once said to me- all the service book tells you is someone somewhere has a pen that worked on that day.
I do my own servicing up to and including timing belts and accept that if it goes to shit it's on me. That's why I don't buy new cars.
Could be worse. Could be one of the new mgs getting advisorys for rusty structure in their first MOTs.
all the noise about the manufacturer should fix. Yep. In the warranty period.
20yrs in the trade been there.
Utter bollocks - warranty doesn't trump statutory rights, and if you've been 20y in the trade then that's another example of what I said above about consumers being 'misled' about what those rights are by dealers weaselling out of their rights.
If this was me I would not be paying a penny on this, and I'd see you in court before I even came close.
Now we know what engine it is I've done some Googling in French (determined to remain helpful 🙂 )
If you can prove the correct oil has been used at services then Stelantis will pick up the tab for repairs:
le groupe Stellantis a mis en place une grille de prise en charge à 100 % concernant les véhicules de moins de 5 ans ou 150 000 km au premier terme échu.
However, if the correct oil hasn't been used Stlantis won't
En revanche, si vous entretenez votre véhicule chez des réparateurs indépendants, vérifiez bien que la vidange soit réalisée avec de la 5W30 et non de la 0W30. En cas de bruit ou de défaillance du moteur, ce non-respect de la préconisation aurait pour conséquence un refus de la prise en charge par les marques du groupe Stellantis.
Why is it up to the OP to prove what oil was used? He’s not responsible for pouring it in the engine.
Sorry ....your dealer network serviced it. If they used the wrong oil....that's your issue not mine.
If you can prove the correct oil has been used at services then Stelantis will pick up the tab for repairs:
It's been Main Dealer serviced....if the right oil wasn't used then there's no way that's coming back on the OP either.
Because that's the conditon of the nothing to pay fix. People who've done their own maintainence even with the correct oil end up footing the bill. Check out some UK forums - an example from a French one:
https://www.forum-peugeot.com/Forum/threads/action-de-groupe-moteur-1-5-hdi.137821/
Given the age of the vehicle it's certain that it was running with original oil spec for some time and that's why its prematurely failed. If the engine got the right oil from the point Stelantis told its dealers to change they'll pay. If not they won't. The OP has never named the dealers so once again we are in the dark - we don't know if they were Stelantis dealers. It strikes me that if the servicing is 100% Stelantis they'll pick up the tab and anything else the OP's argument is with the people who did the servicing and that will be doomed to failure. That's the message I get from French forums anyhow.
Self serviced I can kind of sympathise with, no real QC or liability insurances on that. The question of MD service vs Indy service is trickier; there's no requirement to use a MD to keep warranty but there are wriggles in using pattern vs original parts, etc.
Using the wrong oil - I kind of see, but there are stories that even the right W oil is being rejected because it's not the hard to get hold of expensive Stelantis oil. If an engine's that fragile, it's not been well designed. Or back to my earlier post, it's just wriggling out of the obligations when 'morally' it's pretty clear cut that this engine has an intrinsic fault and not doing a recall and fix, allowing them to fail and then wiggling out because of small print clauses is poor.
But back to OP, if the MD that serviced this hasn't used the right equipment / oil, and then that's used to get out of the claim, no way I'd stand for that.
The OP has never named the dealers so once again we are in the dark - we don't know if they were Stelantis dealers.
Yes we do. Early on p2, it was a Motability vehicle which is a lease with a service plan included, serviced from new by Evans Halshaw and then by a franchised dealer prior to sale.
It is 100% on Vauxhall to pay for this fix, and as I said before, I'd be looking for an apology for the inconvenience and a courtesy car in the meantime!!
Sounds a bit shit but its why its cheaper... all the noise about the manufacturer should fix. Yep. In the warranty period.
No one's asking the manufacturer to fix it. They want the supplying dealer to deal with the problem as you'd expect in a car that was bought 7 months ago.
If you've done 20 years "in the trade" then you should know the law by now...
And that's the danger of taking advice from foreign forums with different consumer rights to the country of interest.
The not-well-designed bit is proven by the fact they fitted a wider chain. However they claim that the older engines are fine with the new oil. There are many engines that have quite specific oil requirements and as you say it's a wiggle. Cars with warranty I've bought have always been serviced at main dealers of the brand and I've continued that until 5 years at least, I'll contiue to 8 years on the current car with an 8-year guarantee on the battery. No wiggle room then.
Which brand was the "franchised dealer" franchised to? Our OP has been more than a little bit evasive on so many points whereas he needs to name every business on the service record if he wants meaningful advice.
Another Brexit bonus, Trailrat, EU consumer protection no longer applies to the UK so companies can make a distinction (but generally don't).
I've not been evasive what so ever, calm and not a bell end yes. The name of the franchised dealer dealing with it are if no consequence.
- They are a Vauxhall franchised dealer.
Utter bollocks - warranty doesn't trump statutory rights, and if you've been 20y in the trade then that's another example of what I said above about consumers being 'misled' about what those rights are by dealers weaselling out of their rights.
If this was me I would not be paying a penny on this, and I'd see you in court before I even came close.
All of this. ☝
It's been dealer serviced at the correct intervals. If it's got the wrong oil in it or some other random bollocks then this is a "them" problem. Is it reasonable to expect a car with FSH to eat itself after seven months?
Do I have to say it again? I must have posted this on the forum a hundred times now. "Just to be clear, can you please confirm in writing that you're refusing to honour my statutory rights?"
Last week was a week of waiting patiently. This week I expect to see progress!
Cheers for the line at the bottom cougar.
Still chasing the correct service proof - i.e. that the correct oil was used! This is 100% not my fault/my responsibility. How do i go about being more forceful yet remaining polite and onside?
quote from the email this morning "
When I left on Friday this was 100% not agreed (75% goodwill from vauxhall) since we're chasing the right service proof. Please let me know, as it was on Friday I had real concerns that the good will was in jeopardy.
"
You sold me the car with fsh . You serviced the car.
The car has not required an interim service.
Surely if you committed to a fsh and serviced the car you have the records to prove that it was serviced to spec. More so the book shows it was serviced by a vauxhall franchised dealer. Surely you wouldn't be advocating your colleagues not following procedure ?
And if these conversations are taking place on the phone. Follow up with an email to them confirming the conversations accuracy to your understanding.
Acts as a time stamped who said what in the who now for when it gets messy
its evans halshaw where the service is being disputed (service 2/3)
I'd be playing it that it's not on you to find that proof, it was serviced by Vauxhall dealers so if they didn't follow the instructions then it's on them. Whether they end up paying for not doing the service properly and causing the failure, or they did the service properly and it failed anyway, both roads lead to the same conclusion - that it's on them. Tracing where the error is - can be done afterwards, they can argue which part of Stelantis pay, you just want it fixed now, and/or a courtesy car while they faff about.
How to actually play it. Firm but insistent. No point losing your rag, get them to agree to the points as made above and then the conclusion is pretty much foregone.
CURVEBALL
Evans Halshaw was the service agent we needed copies from, Motability have provided these copy invoices now, sadly they do not qualify for manufacturer good will. This is nothing to do with the oil or oil quality its simply due to the service being done late.
So the supplying franchise dealer sold you a vehicle which they said had FSH, but it didn't because previous ones were done late. Mis-selling?
What an absolute shit show you could well do without. 🙁
I'd be playing it that it's not on you to find that proof, it was serviced by Vauxhall dealers so if they didn't follow the instructions then it's on them.
I wouldn't go that far even.
It was sold with a full service history. Are they admitting to lying? How about "if you fix it I won't take you to court for fraud"?
How late?
(incidentally, this is why some think you are being less than helpful and transparent - this is an obvious question and one you could have provided in your above post)
You're now in a grey area, IMHO. If late enough that it could have materially contributed to degradation and failure, then I can see why any repair obligation is considered to be voided. If a few days / miles then I'd tell them it's had no effect.
So then - there's two considerations I'd follow
1/ IF it was materially late, and IF that creates an increased likelihood of a catastrophic failure, then you might consider it should have been on the servicing dealer (EH) to flag this to the owner with a recommendation to pay to have it changed before it became a whole engine? Did they do that (anything on the service record, etc.)
2/ Did the supplying dealer sell with a Full Main Dealer service history? Did they flag it's not been serviced on time, did you have the opportunity to inspect the service record and identify this in advance of agreeing the sale? Was the price adjusted to reflect that it was effectively all at your risk now? If not then I'd be arguing goods 'not as described' and getting the supplying dealer to pay for the repair.
it isn't jon as i don't know
16 weeks late jon
Understood, apols.
As it's highly salient to your claim, I reckon that's something you need to demand from the dealership / motability. In any case, surely the mileage and date is in the service book, or is that in the car?
No way I'd be giving up on this, either way I think you are owed at least a partial refund / contribution, with level decided by how aware they did or didn't make you that the FSH wasn't really a FSH. But also tempered by, whether that was something you had the opportunity to check.
16 weeks - yep, big enough that in my mind it is a compromise you sh/could have been made aware of, but also should have checked.
The book is on the car. I wasn't made aware of this. I shouldn't have needed to check as it was advertised as fsh.
So that's your argument, with the supplying dealer.
If 16w late still counts as FSH, then it's been fully serviced and they need to fix it
If 16w late doesn't count as FSH, and consequently claim is not supported, then they mis-sold you a car with FSH when apparently 16w late doesn't mean FSH.
I'd be writing and asking which would they prefer appears on the small claims court paperwork? (up to £10k for SCC)
[personally, I would always have checked anyway, because of exactly situations like this. Maybe our resident car dealer's 20 years of experience can add some thinking on whether supplying cars with FSH and then rejecting claims for not having FSH is standard behaviour?]
I wont add anything further to this from tech perspecitive (i think enough has been said), but if you find wording emails/letters an issue and i can whole heartedly recommend using ChatGPT or Grok to help you. It's very easy to paste in the comms you've had and ask the systems to reference and argue against relevant legislation and case studies - they are surprisngly accurate and vey well worded responses.
Thanks sui
So that's your argument, with the supplying dealer.
If 16w late still counts as FSH, then it's been fully serviced and they need to fix it
If 16w late doesn't count as FSH, and consequently claim is not supported, then they mis-sold you a car with FSH when apparently 16w late doesn't mean FSH.
I'd be writing and asking which would they prefer appears on the small claims court paperwork? (up to £10k for SCC)
This here seems to be a very important point in the whole matter, do you have a copy of the original advert?, or a screenshot, or any paperwork from them which states in writing that it had a FSH?
If you don't then I strongly suspect they will claim it was not sold with a FSH, unless you can prove it.
Regardless of it all, I feel for you, it's a crappy situation and a whole load of hassle you can do without. Hopefully it is resolved soon.
Google your registration. You might well find the original advert even after it's been taken down.
Screenshot it.
But it still sounds like a them problem if you can prove it was bought in goodwill with an advertised FSH. Their lack of process is not your fault.
£8608
Jesus wept! Have they at least given a very thorough breakdown of that figure?
Any outstanding finance. ?
Good point, you may have protections via consumer credit if you used CC or HP to finance it.
Also in googling that - I found this useful read which includes
"Under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, it’s illegal for dealers to provide incomplete or false information or engage in other unfair business practices"
- so while I still stick by my 'should have checked the FSH of the car rather than take their word for it' it's actually more on your side that that; I'd suggest under those regs if they hadn't told you the FSH was long overdue then they have provided false information. Find the advert and see what it claimed at the time!
If none of those are red flags, and they still insist it's on you I'd be issuing letter before action and starting to think of a small claims court. I suspect that if they are (IMHO, in full knowledge what they're doing is wrong) following a policy of rejecting claims on the basis a number of people don't know their rights and pay up, having a judgement against them that can then be publicised would see them reaching for their chequebook of goodwill in no time at all.
That's the cost of a new engine and installation..
other news we have not had to strip the engine further to determine the engine is needing replacement, we found a crack in the cam carrier and chain links are missing. These small parts will have gone through the intake with some certainty.
@jon - no sign of the Advert I'm afraid. Seems like it's all against me
I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said... But I think the critical thing as said, is can you actually prove the car was sold with "FSH".
That's the ace up your sleeve really, if you can demonstrate that.Was it ever advertised on auto trader or whatever? Maybe you can find a cached advert..