Odd, I see school kids and teens vaping all the time, whereas those smoking, and that’s not so many these days, are older.
I'd imagine it's highly regional.
However, in terms of fashion, I think this season cigarettes are in and vapes are out:
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/smoking-cool-fashion-saltburn-trend-b2504079.html
Indeed. Who still smokes nowadays anyway? The numbers of young people doing so are absolutely minuscule compared to previous generations.
Strange. We just had a new cohort of grads start most of whom smoke.
Yet when I think back to my cohort -15 years ago that was 1 or 2 smokers in a group of 20
The two that work for me stated that they started with vape and then skol as the vape was scorned by their peers then just went with smoking as it's more socially acceptable than looking like a Berk with a vape and more accessible than skol.
In our industry there are moves to ban smoking at site - I'm on board with it tbh as it's a huge cardiovascular risk in a remote environment - we already screen for overweight but let the smokers through wirh impunity - but it is going to present a huge near and long term recruitment issue.
Tldr: looks like the numbers are rising again: vaping looks more like a gateway than a solution
vaping looks more like a gateway than a solution
Not a huge surprise when you start to look at who owns most of the larger vaping co and e-cigarettes.
Do the rules mean someone can't bring duty free, or tobacco bought while abroad back into the UK?
vaping looks more like a gateway than a solution
A good point.
With cigs the price they are, the current generation of potential smokers - ie teens simply cannot afford them, so are less likely to start.
That is bad for the cigarette companies, who need new customers and also for the treasury, which sees its income fall.
Enter the vape. cheap enough that even children can afford them, and given the active addiction aspect - nicotine leaves them addicted, what will or can happen if they cant get a vape, they are more likely to try to buy cigarettes instead. Bingo, you have your new customer group.
All we need is for the government to ban vapes and thee addicted vapers only option is buying cigarettes.
.
It's a little bit like the Diesel thing. For decades diesel was cheaper than petrol. Then we have adverts on tv claiming diesel was better and the new engines were cheaper to run, cleaner etc etc and lots of people bought diesel cars.
Then the price of diesel goes up beyond the cost of petrol.What a stroke of luck for the treasury, and with so many now owning diesel vehicles their tax revenue increased by a very large amount.
Strange. We just had a new cohort of grads start most of whom smoke.
Yet when I think back to my cohort -15 years ago that was 1 or 2 smokers in a group of
The latest stats:
In 2021, 12% of 11-15 year old pupils had ever smoked, down from 16% of pupils in 2018, and is the lowest level ever recorded by this survey. There has been a steady decline since 1996, when 49% of pupils had smoked at least once
vaping looks more like a gateway than a solution
What an absurd statement. Smoking is at its lowest level ever recorded largely due to vaping. There’s not been a sudden massive upsurge in willpower.
Myself and all my mates I reckon are pretty typical. We all used to smoke. Now I don’t know a single one who does. All now vape instead. I don’t know, or have ever heard of a single person who started vaping them went on to start smoking cigs. Do feel free to enlighten me though
For a parent like me who likes to restrict what things my kids have access to (e.g. screen time, computer games) while hypocritically filling my boots with it when they are asleep, this seems like a good solution. They aren't allowed and I can still have the odd ciggy from a 20 pack I bought 3 months ago when I was a bit squiffy.
I do wonder why not ban vapes for people the same age though? If they are justified as a way to reduce smoking then what is the point of them if you aren't allowed to smoke.
So weird that smoking is so demonised while alcohol is generally left alone. I'm sure the harm that alcohol does to some people is much worse.
In the case of alcohol it's much more severe if you get really addicted, whereas for cigarettes you could get lucky and despite smoking a packet per day for most of your life live to 90 and die from something unrelated to smoking.
I had a long think about it a while back after I found out that a friend's family business was a tobacco company. In some ways I felt like they were just profiting from something that causes addiction, illness, misery and death. Then I thought about how I would feel if a friend owned a brewery/distillery - how is that any better? Tobacco and alcohol can both be enjoyed in moderation with relatively low health risks (occasional cigar/pint). It's when you make it a routine/regular thing that the health risks and impact on your life become intolerable.
I’m sure the harm that alcohol does to some people is much worse.
It is but your argument has been taken apart several times already on this thread. Smokers are pretty much all addicted and two thirds will die from diseases caused by smoking. The vast majority of drinkers are not addicted and consume at levels where long term harm is minimal. Not the same at all.
Finally this government has done something useful, and upset mad Lizze into the bargain, result.
But again, tobacco specifically targets adolescents. If you don't get people addicted before they are out of their teens they are highly unlikely to start at all.
Alcohol you can get into at any age. Same with weed, MDMA, mushrooms, etc. Also, stopping drinking, weed, MDMA etc is far far easier than cigarettes.
Attempting to introduce an increasing age limit on alcohol would lead to black markets because people like to drink. They don't need to be addicted.
Why do people insist that not treating every single drug exactly the same way is somehow hypocritical? Saying that, the vaping age should be increased along with tobacco. Same business model but with fewer health effects.
In the case of alcohol it’s much more severe if you get really addicted, whereas for cigarettes you could get lucky and despite smoking a packet per day for most of your life live to 90 and die from something unrelated to smoking.
You can also get really addicted to alcohol, ive to 90 and die of something unrelated. Both cause terrible health problems though, so you’re right in some ways about alcohol being an ‘ok’ habit.
What an absurd statement. Smoking is at its lowest level ever recorded largely due to vaping. There’s not been a sudden massive upsurge in willpower.
Maybe your blinkered as a smoker. But I'm seeing it on the rise on the ground. Hide behind the published stats that suit your native but in the 20 years between me being a teen and the current crop there is a significant uptake. Those in that generation are telling me real time they got into smoking via vaping.
Hardly absurd. The absurd part is your defence of smoking.
It's a real time future issue your kicking into the long grass
Maybe your blinkered as a smoker
I haven’t been a smoker for a long time. Like absolutely loads of other people I gave up the evil cigs via vaping
Thank god!
Smoking is only going in one direction. It’s in terminal decline. It isn’t going to have some vinyl-esque revival. In 30 years we’ll view walking into a shop to buy 20 cigs in the same way as someone nowadays buying snuff
So why's the kids doing it then and citing they started vaping but didn't like looking like a berk..... I did point out you look just as much of a Berk with a burning bit of paper hanging out your mouth stood in the cold wind and rain....it was to no avail.
Ps hope it does go the same way as snuff. Snuffs banned.
Oh and great job on giving it up. I had in my head you were still smoking. It's never easy. It nearly killed my old man and he would still go back - 4 heart attacks and 6 stents. Every time he would stop. And every time he picked up the cigs again he would have another. - they started early 30s . He's now nearly 60 and as far as I know learned his lesson.
For those wondering, looks like smoking has gone from 20% in 2011 to 13% in 2022.
The graph on this page shows a pretty straight line going down https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthandlifeexpectancies/bulletins/adultsmokinghabitsingreatbritain/2022
13% is still a lot of people who smoke at around 6 million. They must all be hiding somewhere as I don't notice anywhere near as many smoking these days.
I'm very much on the fence with this. My gut reaction is "smoking bad, ban good" and from a direct health cost view, that's probably right.
But as others have pointed out, if you look at wider societal costs, alcohol and sugar/processed foods are probably similar costs, so should also be banned.
And if you accept the personal liberty argument, then clearly all drugs should be legalised (and taxed) which will make the Tories heads explode.
I dabbled briefly with cigarettes as a teen, having been brought up in an extended family of smokers, most of whom had given up by teatime I started trying it. While I shudder at the memory of pubs reeking of smoke, the occasional whiff of cigarette, and especially pipe and cigar smoke, brings back happy family memories for me
It nearly killed my old man and he would still go back – 4 heart attacks and 6 stents. Every time he would stop. And every time he picked up the cigs again he would have another
Depressingly, we’re presently seeing the same with my father-in-law. 2 heart attacks in and still puffing away.
As someone in the glass house of being a smoker for 20 odd years though, I can’t throw stones, I suppose. It’s his choice.
I did take him to a vape shop and got him all kitted out with a decent vape and liquids and everything but it didn’t last 5 minutes
I was talking about this last night with my Outlaws who were both heavy smokers up until their 50's and have been non-smokers for about 30yrs now. They were both still very defensive towards cigarettes and couldn't see anything wrong with the rise of vaping amongst school kids.
Personally, I think Rishi's cigarette ban is a pretty empty gesture. It's an easy legacy for him. From what I see, working in Glasgow and living in a wee post industrial town in central Scotland, actual smoking has declined hugely. Really, the only people I ever see smoking nowadays are either standing outside the pub, or are smoking weed. Vaping is huge though, people haven't quit the habit, they've just switched to vapes, and I'm fine with that as at least it's a bit healthier. What bothers me though is the number of kids that are vaping. Certainly, where I live, it seems like every other kid over the age of 12 is walking along with their phone in one hand and a vape in the other. I'm not sure if they're going to be a 'gateway' to cigarettes as someone else mentioned, but it does concern me that we seem to have a whole generation of kids growing up who are addicted to nicotine.
How is that a good thing?
There has been far less of a decline (around 0.3%) since 2020. And with the current push in movies and fashion to make smoking cool again it may be about to go back up again.
At some point it’s going to slow, the new uptake would give better figures. I’ve not noticed movies or fashion pushing smoking more than it has in the last decade or so.
I’ve not noticed movies or fashion pushing smoking more than it has in the last decade or so.
Posted earlier but here you go.
Yeah I seen that earlier. I still can’t say I’ve noticed it being any different.
But as others have pointed out, if you look at wider societal costs, alcohol and sugar/processed foods are probably similar costs, so should also be banned.
There’s been a big push on reducing processed foods, not that successfully, there’s a sugar tax and companies have reduced sugar in many products. Alcohol being so cheap in supermarkets needs addressed though.
With regards to NHS savings.....
A few years ago I used to work putting together event stands for Philip Morris, the tabacco company, at political party rallies in Germany.
Built stands for all of the political parties except the Greens and the AFD. At these events there would be stands from all the major car makers, defence industries, gambling bodies, McDonald's, energy concerns, local and national breweries... Basically all those who contribute to societies problems and environmental degradation.
Turns out Germany is the largest EU producer of (non-counterfeit) tabacco products. Philipp Morris chuck loads of money at all the parties, regardless of their leaning.
One year, they had posters (that we were told not to photograph and only display once the conference was underway) detailing a study they carried out for the Czech government....
The gist was let people smoke.
When you let people smoke they have a sense of freedom. It gives people something to look forward to and brings people together.
Smokers pay more in tax, once from their wages, secondly on the purchase of tabacco products. They also, on average, don't live as long as non-smokers and therefore save the government thousands in pension payouts and associated health costs of old age.
We used to keep all the hundreds of 200 boxes from the likes of Marlborough, Camel etc and use them as payment for the forklift drivers or security for looking after our gear whilst we went for lunch.
And with the current push in movies and fashion to make smoking cool again it may be about to go back up again.
I watched Peaky Blinders and really wanted a roll up.
In the case of alcohol it’s much more severe if you get really addicted, whereas for cigarettes you could get lucky and despite smoking a packet per day for most of your life live to 90 and die from something unrelated to smoking.
Smokers on average live 10 years less and nearly half will die of a smoking related illness. Not great odds.
Im conflicted on this one. On the face of it I agree as the health benefits and associated costs smoking causes to the NHS make it a clear good thing to do.
But.
I am fundamentally against restricting peoples choices and freedoms to do as they choose where ever possible.
As others have said you could make the same argument for alcohol.
I have no idea how it will work in practice. Are all shop workers now meant to ask everyone for ID as it will soon become impossible to tell if some one is 35 or 33 and one legally can buy them and one cant.
Making stuff illegal doesn't work. Look at the so called war on drugs. An absolute failure and yet somehow everyone thinks this wont happen with tobacco. I've always been in favour of the legalisation of all class A B and C drugs as a far more cost effective and public health way of controlling them than trying to ban them. I guess tobacco could now become the new gateway drug into the criminal gangs that are no doubt gearing up to supply the market.
As others have said you could make the same argument for alcohol.
I have no idea how it will work in practice. Are all shop workers now meant to ask everyone for ID as it will soon become impossible to tell if some one is 35 or 33 and one legally can buy them and one cant.
Making stuff illegal doesn’t work. Look at the so called war on drugs.
Already been covered several times in this thread.
Apart form maybe the ID thing. The answer is yes, you ask people for ID.
But as others have pointed out, if you look at wider societal costs, alcohol and sugar/processed foods are probably similar costs, so should also be banned.
Govts of any stripe mess with alcohol and food at their peril, and the manufacturers of both know that. We used to have pretty strict rules introduced in 2003 about the levels of salt in processed food (world leading at the time) that ha both been watered down and the emphasis shifted to personal accountability, sugar reduction and calorie counting (strong evidence about their lack of effectiveness) when the Tories came to power (natch). It looks like they're doing something, when in fact; its meaningless. The damage to the nations health (and the secondary effects it has on the security of the food chain and climate change) of highly processed food is probably the next public health battle waiting in the wings.
And if you accept the personal liberty argument, then clearly all drugs should be legalised (and taxed) which will make the Tories heads explode.
I think you'll find that the libertarian streak is often to be found in the ranks of the right wing, and interfering with your fun is a left-wing staple. (see the Temperance movement et al.)
I’ve not noticed movies or fashion pushing smoking more than it has in the last decade or so.
I've started watching 3 body problem on Netflix, It's interesting given this thread, in so much that a plot point hinges on two women smoking, and another of the characters is told off by his boss about smoking in the office, and reveals that he sacked the person complaining about it. I've watched just a couple of episodes, and the amount of "incidental" smoking is noticeable.
As an owner of shop Involved in the industry we are completely pro the new measures and laws. Infact personally I'd say it doesn't go far enough....
There are other convenience shops near me, and around the country who are kicking up a right stick about it though, many where 40% or more of their trade comes from tobacco and vapes. Some of the supermarkets, Tesco/Sainsbury's etc are also lobbying the gov to reduce the impact on stores.
And if you accept the personal liberty argument, then clearly all drugs should be legalised (and taxed) which will make the Tories heads explode.
not that kind of freedom. only the kind that makes money for tory party donors..
not that kind of freedom. only the kind that makes money for tory party donors..
https://thepeoplesvoice.tv/theresa-mays-husband-profit-uk-cannabis-reform/
I’ve not noticed movies or fashion pushing smoking more than it has in the last decade or so.
Watching "One Day"... it's period correct use of smoking for scene setting, character definition, and just the look is absolutely spot on. The variation in the way fags are lit or held for example. Very well studied. If you're weren't around in the early 90s it probably just looks glamorous.
Making stuff illegal doesn’t work. Look at the so called war on drugs.
The context would be a different. Hard drugs exist for a different reason. The issue with tobacco is that it doesn't really do a lot - you aren't going to go out to score some fags for a hardcore bender, are you? It just permeates society everywhere, gets people addicted and then kills them horribly and slowly. If coffee were carcinogenic would we be ok with everyone drinking it all the time?
Making stuff illegal doesn’t work.
The oft cited example being American Prohibitionism. There's plenty of evidence to say that actually, it did in a reasonably noticeable way, epically on public health;
According to the historian Jack S. Blocker Jr., "death rates from cirrhosis and alcoholism, alcoholic psychosis hospital admissions, and drunkenness arrests all declined steeply during the latter years of the 1910s, when both the cultural and the legal climate were increasingly inhospitable to drink, and in the early years after National Prohibition went into effect.
And there's mixed evidence to suggest that crime surged during prohibition, historians noting that violent crime existed before and after prohibition at about the same levels. The reason the 21st amendment was introduced was probably the effect on the economy that banning alcohol had, estimates put the loss of taxes at $226 million/ annum.
Making stuff illegal doesn’t work. Look at the so called war on drugs.
It's not a flat out ban though is it?
Existing smokers can carry on smoking legally. It's only stopping those who would become underage.
Smoking has a drug would eventually die out along with the smokers....
I have no idea how it will work in practice. Are all shop workers now meant to ask everyone for ID as it will soon become impossible to tell if some one is 35 or 33 and one legally can buy them and one cant.
I believe the idea is that they’ll phase tobacco out, so there won’t be any to buy by the time they approach the legal age.
When you let people smoke they have a sense of freedom. It gives people something to look forward to and brings people together.
Smokers pay more in tax, once from their wages, secondly on the purchase of tabacco products. They also, on average, don’t live as long as non-smokers and therefore save the government thousands in pension payouts and associated health costs of old age.
Pretty sure this is in an episode of Yes Minister c1982
Alcohol being so cheap in supermarkets needs addressed though.
Easily done through Minimum Unit Pricing.
Pretty sure this is in an episode of Yes Minister c1982
😂
I have no idea how it will work in practice. Are all shop workers now meant to ask everyone for ID as it will soon become impossible to tell if some one is 35 or 33 and one legally can buy them and one cant.
Essentially we would need to ask anyone who looks under 25 for id, as we do now, and if they are born 2009 or after refuse. Really not as big a deal as some in the trade are making if out to be - we already have to enforce age restriction on products, this would just be a rolling age.
By the time we get to 2044 and those born 2008/9 will be in there mid 30's the idea is that the vast majority won't be smoking.
I admire the intent.
I think the bill is a bit performative.
I have doubts that it'll be effective.
I'm interested to see the impact.
Yeah, it does sound a bit like re-aranging the deck chairs on the titanic, something this government specialises in.
I'm not against the ban, I'm just unconvinced it will be very effective given the natural decline anyway.
When this subject comes up the thing that amazes me most is just how f*** judgemental people are about others use of tobacco, alcohol and other drugs. If you don't want to smoke, drink, take drugs and eat shit food then very well done, but the leave the rest of us to make our own decisions about how we live our lives. It's none of your f*** business!
PS. And yes this smoking ban policy is the most lunatic, unworkable, ill-thought out policy since Theresa May came up with the dementia tax.
