[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12088871 ]Christmas squatter is jailed for six months[/url]
Seems just a tad harsh. Even the owner of the flat was sympathetic. No damage caused, nothing taken.
Yeah yeah he 'broke the Law' etc, but 6 months inside? How on Earth is that going to help the poor bugger (other than sorting out his accomodation problems for a while)? I mean, it was -10 outside ffs!
Just a bit sad really. 🙁
Ah yes, the poor must be punished.
Back to the 1800s.
Jails are quite warm, so you never know he might be happy.
Does seem harsh though from reading the whole report wasn't he actually jailed for the theft of the keys and use of them thereafter rather than squatting?
Premeditated, he stole the keys a few days earlier. Deport the buggar!
Well I am sympathetic to someone out in the cold but if you read past the headline....
He burgled the house for the keys previously.
Entered the house, unlawfully, and stayed in it for 4 days.
Didn't leave when asked by the owner.
So the six months might be reasonable.
He might not have had a jail sentence if he hadn't waived his right to a pre sentence report, which would have brought into play mitigating factors such as the fact he had nowhere to go, other personal circumstances.
So yes it might seem harsh at first glance but he didn't help himself in the slightest, did he?
There are always other places that would have taken him in and from the sound of it he had money to buy his own food. As said early he pre meditatedly stole the keys, thiefs a thief just with some balls and a willingness to spend some time for free at HMP.
I have to agree with robdob, more going on that was reported.
But after Lewandowski waived his right to a pre-sentence report, the district judge said his theft and wrongful entry was without justification.
He seemed to steal some gas to cook and eleccy for the tv. That said I would not want to come back from holiday and find that someone had moved in. the fact they were clean would be of little compensation n Sentence does seem harsh though.
No he din't Rob, but then we don't know much about his mental state, which can't be too good considering he's lost his job and has nowhere to live.
I think 6 months is disproportionate; some sort of Community Order would surely have been more productive all round?
I think the real crime here is that in a part of the World that's as affluent as the UK, some poor sods have to sleep rough, and there is often little or no care provided for them. Let's face it, you have to be in a pretty bad situation, to be sleeping rough in winter.
There are always other places that would have taken him in
I think you are perhaps just a little naive as to what provisions there are for people such as this. And even if there was, how would he learn about them? It's actually very difficult for people sleeping rough to find any sort of accommodation, as such services are woefully inadequate for the actual scale of the problem.
I wonder just how self-righteous folk would be, were they in such a situation themselves...
Suggsey - MemberThere are always other places that would have taken him in
Really? I was under the understanding there was a serious shortage of hostel places
I have to agree with robdob, more going on than was reported.
would you be happy coming home to find him in your home? - no, thought not.
disproportionate? or a correct sentence for once given that most other sentences are woefully short.
ps. i'd still deport the thieving buggar!
would you be happy coming home to find him in your home? - no, thought not.
No, but I'd be less happy about turfing the poor sod out into the cold, or ending up in jail actually. TBH, if they hadn't caused any damage, or stolen anything, then I'd rather let them stay than have to face being out in such horrible conditions.
disproportionate? or a correct sentence for once given that most other sentences are woefully short.ps. i'd still deport the thieving buggar!
Ah right. Ok. Whatever.
breaking and entering is breaking and entering however much bull you dress it up with.
No, but I'd be less happy about turfing the poor sod out into the cold, or ending up in jail actually
rubbish
If he had keys it is not breaking and entering as no breaking involved - which is why thats not what he was prosecuted for
rubbish
In your head maybe. Not in mine. You don't know me at all, so don't make assumptions about others based on your own opinions alone. Thanks.
fair enough elfinsafety - guess you're too big hearted. I wouldn't want anyone suffering in the cold, but there's no way on earth they get away with that.
TJ - surely it was a case of unlawful entry though?
Elfinsafety - so what would you have done in that situation? let him stay? he wouldn't leave after all
Quite possibly M6TFF However according to that report
Lewandowski pleaded guilty to [b]theft [/b]and [b]wrongfully taking possession of the property [/b]at Tates Avenue between December 24 and 28.
Well yes I would actually. I couldn't turn another human being out into the freezing cold. Sure, I wouldn't be happy about it, but I believe in doing the right thing by others, and to me, that would mean letting them stay, be safe and warm and fed, and then try to help find out about services which could help them. I'm perhaps in a better position to be able to 'phone around see what was available and that.
I may only have a small flat, but I consider myself to be lucky to have what I've got. Others aren't so lucky. We should all try to do what we can to help others. Because one day we might find ourselves in that same situation, and crave the kindness of others.
Elfin, I fail to see your problem
Lewandowski pleaded guilty
Lets read that again:
Lewandowski pleaded guilty
Pretty much an open and shut case then isn't it? I mean, for a start, pleading guilty to theft tends to weaken your assertion that he hadn't stolen anything...
So.....you are willing to take this at face value? The offence was committed yesterday, and today a 6 month sentence? Something not reported here.
I never said anything about his 'guilt', Zulu, so back in your box, sunshine. 😉
Yes he took the keys. But he din't take owt else from the flat, and generally looked after the place.
Not saying he should be let off scott-free, as he has broken the Law (I said this at the beginning). Just that a six-month jail term is perhaps a bit harsh. Others agree with me, but I dare say you'll find some poin to try and make an argument. That's about all you ever do on here after all. 🙄
I may choose to ignore you; I may not. Whatever happens, I'll decide.
So.....you are willing to take this at face value? The offence was committed yesterday, and today a 6 month sentence? Something not reported here.
Tootall; when someone is arrested, unless it's a particularly bad crime, they are usually released on bail, unless they fail to provide a suitable address. As in this case. So it's straight to court. As he's admitted the offences, there is no need for a lengthy trial and that, and they will often be sentenced there and then.
There's undoubtedly something not reported here. Whether or not it's relevant, we don't know.
Elfinsafety read what you type re others thinking of you, trust me I am in no way naive, far from it, there are plenty of other options that he could have pursued including turning up on the doorstep of his local police station- I know from experience that we sorted someone in an exact same situation re no job etc etc not that many chrsitmases ago.
I assumne that there may be a polish community in the area that he was 'living' that he could have perhaps with help spoken to someone to gain a legitimate place to bed down. There is always crisis loans too. So in short lots of legal options he could have taken.
Elfinsafety - you are either a saint or far too trusting for your own good. to let a complete stranger, who you've found illegally in your own home, then stay is utter madness (IMO) buy good on you - lets hope you don't end up being on the news when someone has taken advantage of your kindness 🙂
In this weather, a six month jail sentence might just have saved his life. The sentence seems harsh but, if he's breaking and entering to get out of the cold, he's now out of the cold legitimately.
That seems good value for £18k of my taxes.
Where's Ken Clarke when you need him?
Oh and by the way he may have not wanted too much digging done into his previous convictions (should he have some) in his home country let alone in the UK which may have some bearing into his 'heavy' sentence.
Elfinsafety - you are either a saint or far too trusting for your own good. to let a complete stranger, who you've found illegally in your own home, then stay is utter madness
Well it might seem so, and if that person had damaged/stolen stuff then they'd be out, no question. But if they'd broken into my home, yet then shown respect for it in all other ways, then I'd have to consider the right course of action according to my own beliefs and ideals. Just because a person is homeless doesn't necessarily make them nasty or evil.
It's at times like this, when I'm reminded that many people live in such cosy safe little bubbles, they often fail to empathise, or see things through another's eyes. People are quick to judge, yet feel exempt from judgement themselves.
Too many look simply to punish crime, rather than look at the reasons why crime exists.
I applaud your feelings re helping someone out Elfinsafety but unfortunately having seen many victims of crime in the past 27 years, my real life experiences of crime and empathy for offenders is somewhat weighted in the other direction. Unfortunately as is always the case with the media its very rare that the full facts come to the publices attention and of course legal argument and mitigation can be very misleading. I would still expect that in view of the sentence that there is some facts there not in the public domain.
There's a simple solution Elfin, I mean, you live in 'that London' after all, don't you?
Shed loads of homeless people there - why don't you nip outside and invite one of them in for the rest of the Christmas period? You could post on here to keep us updated how its going, like a form of minor social experiment...
Come on, if you're so kind hearted, make the effort and show us that charity begins at home! If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!
No one was harmed, nothing was damaged. 6 months jail is ludicrous. You can kick someone's face in and get less.
That's a wonderful idea, Zulu! I take it you'll be setting an example and doing similar?
buzz-lightyear - Member
No one was harmed, nothing was damaged. 6 months jail is ludicrous. You can kick someone's face in and get less.
Add there lies the problem in this country we live in..
One case highlights the problem
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Judges-let-failed-asylum-seeker.6663142.jp
ludicrous.
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/human-rights-or-soft-leftyism ]Oh Christ; not [i]again[/i]??[/url] 🙁
If I found you in my house un-invited then I would expect you to be leaving in handcuffs in the back of a big police van after being licked to death by my Labrador.
Though to be fair the guy in question seems to be quite different from the types you find in Leeds.
And here come the fantasists... 🙄
Elfinsafety - Member
Oh Christ; not again??
without dragging that post up again - my point was to highlight disproportionate sentencing. his LENIENT sentence was appalling.
Elfin is right, pure fantasy. Its my cat you should be scared of, not the dog.
Contrary to popular belief sentencing guidelines are fairly strict. To get 6 months he's likely to have a bucket load of previous convictions. I'm sure community orders are likely to have been tried and failed already.
perhaps he got six months as the judge thought this was a good way to get him off the streets through winter?
elfin - i must say you made me empathise with the chap. i have heard of folk who are serial burglars as a career and having been broken into i have to say i despise those types, however, this guy didnt take the tv or money,etc, as far as I can see and yes in an ideal world it would be good to take him in. not sure I could do it but the poor blokes going to be at risk of death on the streets so hats off to you elfin
didn't take anything because he thought he had another week before the residents returned?
Reading with interest and hoping for renewed forum rage. If I may make a suggestion though..isn't it about this time on this thread that the liberal wishy washies accused the 'hang em all brigade of being Nazi's / fascists?
Come on lets get all annoyed.
Usually, maybe change is afoot?
do we know anything about his previous which could of course make this greyer than the headline suggests?
There is no such offence as breaking and entering in the UK. You would not get 6 months for that with no previous. From the sounds of it and yes I am assuming here he has a reasonable amount of similar previous, maybe has a drug problem and other aggravating factors. Personally I think it is prob ok. It is horrible having someone break in (or allow themselves in with keys without your permission) still horrible.
Six years ago we were broken into while we were upstairs in bed. My mistake was to leave a window open.
Wife is still upset and I'm similarly scarred. It changed me as a person (for the worse). Put it this way I stopped buying the Guardian.
Social justice and inequality is one thing. Criminality is another.
Probably very boring.
But if we wait about 2 weeks we can get the full decision online. Latest is from December 10th:
http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Judicial+Decisions/
But then that would mean there would be less scope for wild, factless speculation, which would be very un-STW.
Doesn't a six month sentence mean he'll be out in three ?
Late March then, just as the weather's warming up.
...some poor sods have to sleep rough, and there is often little or no care provided for them.
No, but I'd be less happy about turfing the poor sod out into the cold, or ending up in jail actually.
I may be jumping to conclusions here, but...
You are sympathetic towards the homeless, although you don't invite homeless people in to your home.
If you found a homeless person uninvited in your home, you would let them stay.
Your charity appears to be biased in favour of those who commit crimes.
heh nice one MTQG
Elfinsafety - I take it you live alone, no offspring?
Can I suggest a middle position? I'd like to think, if I came home to find a clean, civil man had moved into my flat, I'd ask the police not to prosecute him. I'd want him removed, and not to come back, but there doesn't appear to be great harm done. 🙂
I heard he once posted on a forum in block capitals.
I came home to find a clean, civil man had moved into my flat
No doubt using your shower gel and washing powder. How about he takes your bike for a spin too?
Shit, well, if he used my shower gel then only deportation will do. 🙂
As long as I didn't find a big roll of builder's DPM in my flat, then fair enough, I'd just want him removed...but I'd ask that he not be prosecuted or if he was, then ask that he be given a community order or some such.
I'd ask they throw the book at him, but that's my kind heartedness 🙂
He appeared in court within a day of being charged, did not ask for bail and pleaded guilty and did not ask to adjourn for pre-sentence reports to consider a community based sentence. The judge did not bail pending appeal as he has no bail address. All this means the man effectively asked to be jailed.The only issue is length the judge has given him the maximum available in the lower court of 6 months knowing he will serve half i.e. 3 months. Save for the actual length of the jail term this could not have happened in this way without his consent.
He will be out in march at the latest.
He has been tucked up somewhere warm and safe with sufficient resources to do time to try to solve some of his accommodation needs. .
I doubt very much he has any drug problems if he had he would have nicked and sold the TV.
Well said crankboy
Explaining a complicated situation in clear, concise and understandable language without provoking emotive assumptions.
You'll never be a journalist, crankboy.
"You'll never be a journalist, crankboy."
The inability to type or spell also features in that equation .
my original post should have read:-
"He has been tucked up somewhere warm and safe with sufficient resources AND time to try to solve some of his accommodation needs"
...this means the man effectively asked to be jailed.....this could not have happened in this way without his consent.
So yet another example of the law putting the interests of a criminal first then. And I bet they wouldn't have been so obliging if he had been a British national. Oh no, in politically correct soft-touch Britain a foreign criminal gets everything he asks for.
It makes me sick. Lazy foreigners come over here, they live on our generous unemployment benefits, take our jobs, and now the cheeky ****ers are demanding that we house them in our prisons. No wonder the country is in such a mess.
Dump him in a big open space somewhere. And throw away the keys.
ernie for PM!
To be fair I'd be seriously unhappy if I found someone in my house when I returned, but if he seemed a genuine person, had not left the place a tip and hadn't stolen anything bar a bit of food from the fridge and was genuinely doing it just to survive I couldn't really complain too much. But if he then refused to leave/give the keys back etc I'd have no qualms in having him hiked off to jail. The fact that he stole the keys beforehand tells me he's possibly a tad more scary than I'd be happy with and the owner should really have better key control.
Crankboy .. they don't nick TV's any more too big! more small electrical goods. Sorry!
Munqe-chick - Member "they don't nick TV's any more too big! more small electrical goods. Sorry! "
Round here they do and if the TV is too big they get a local private hire firm to drive them to cash converters.
Your charity appears to be biased in favour of those who commit crimes.
Nope you are wrong and jumping to conclusions. I am charitable to those who are in need of help and support.
Elfinsafety - I take it you live alone, no offspring?
Yes, and I can see that some folk might consider this a factor in my own position here. I concede that if I had a family with children, that I might need to seek a different solution than my earlier hypothetical suggestion.
Notice that in my original post, I said the 6-month jail sentence [i]seemed[/i] harsh. This was based on what little information I had access to regarding this particular case, coupled with my own views and philosophies. It may well be that the bloke's an utter scumbayg, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions based on such little information.
Of course, depending on your own perspective/prejudices, this can be read as either:
Unfortunate man who's lost his job and is homeless resorts to crime,
or
Nasty evil criminal scumbayg is hell-bent on depriving decent hard-working law-abiding folk of their own home.
Or something in between.
Crankboy fair enough but flipping heck how behind the times are they 😉 Where I work I haven't heard of a nicked TV in about 5 years!!!!
Not worth nicking TVs. Nowt worth watching on them anyway....
LOL @ Elfinsafety Oh so true, I think I watch about 1 programme a week and that's probably the 6 o'clock news.
Elfinsafety, it's not just you, several other people have said they would do similar.
Maybe it's the immediacy and personal involvement of having the homeless person right in front of you, rather than the anonymity of a charity appealing on behalf of homeless people, that alters peoples attitudes.
By not taking in a homeless person who asks for help, but allowing a homeless person who has illegally entered your house to stay, you are encouraging crime.
You may not see it that way, but I suspect the judge did.
I've always thought it would be more practical to use prison as a way to protect the public, rather than as a punishment for criminals. That means dangerous drivers would get long stretches wheras someone who inherited a little early would not. By that logic, putting this guy away 'til spring is just about right.