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Of course it does. Stop with your fantasy economics
Rejoining the EU is the key to stopping our economic decline. Stopping our economic decline is the key to improving public services
Sigh this is terribly tedious.
The government and the BoE spend money into existence when they spend. That is how the model works.
They spent 450billion in the pandemic without a tax payer involved.
The state bails the private sector every time when it collapses on a large level.
It's you that has the fantasy. Seriously catch up.
I love it when pro-EU ers like yourself don't believe the Tory government over Brexit but jump in to bed with them over the bollocks that is tax and spend, and believe the money has run out. Basically you are giving governments excuses not to fund things.
Once again the BoE/UK government is the monopoly issuer of the the £. Why do you think it needs to be EU for revenue?
The EU nurses will not come back under visa schemes. Only under FOM
Over a third of nurses currently being recruited by the NHS come from outside both the UK and the EU.
So if the UK doesn't want to go through the bother and expense of training UK residents there is clearly an available source from outside the EU.
which is unethical and destroys other countries healthservices
overseas recruitment is a fraction of what it was and recruitment from the EU is virtually stopped.
I agree that governments can create money but there are limits to doing so without devaluing the currency / driving inflation.
How do explain the USD strength to just about every other currency given their huge stimulus (i.e spending 5 trillion) programme then?
It's the exact opposite of what you are suggesting.
Of course there are limits to spending and money creation but not with country in our mess!
Also you don't devalue a currency like this. Fiat currencies aren't backed. They are traded, and that is more of a pride thing than any meaningful real economic use to the UK.
Over a third of nurses currently being recruited by the NHS come from outside both the UK and the EU.
So if the UK doesn’t want to go through the bother and expense of training UK residents there is clearly an available source from outside the EU.
But Brexit has made that much more expensive for all industries to recruit, paying £1000s in visa fees and facing the inevitable delays in processing compared to FOM, is a perfect example of how Brexit is hurting UK industry & the NHS.
Its certainly hurt the scientific research sector in that respect, took a chunk out of the budget in my last last lab but it was the extra delays and red tape that made it worse
still blue passports or something
Of course there are limits to spending and money creation
correct there are. Now please stop pretending there are not
Brexit is hurting UK industry & the NHS.
Its certainly hurt the scientific research sector in that respect, took a chunk out of the budget in my last last lab but it was the extra delays and red tape that made it worse
All I'm suggesting and agree with you, is the the UK government could fix stuff if it wanted to. It's not restricted by lack of pounds.
That's not an EU issue, it's a capitalism issue.
correct there are. Now please stop pretending there are not
No you misunderstand. Money creation is a product of any government with a central bank. Don't confuse Q/E with government spending. Government spending is a normal every day operation. The spending happens first before tax receipts are cleared.
The limitation is not lack of pounds.
The limitation is inflation (driven by too much spending, not the the same as the current inflation.) And full employment.
I know my topic pretty well. So these old arguments that your are throwing at me are well worn and flacid.
The government needs to spend cash, 12 years of Tory austerity has flattened public services - this happend whilst in the EU.
It's a government spending issue not a revenue constrained issue by being out of the EU.
That's the fantasy.
Catch up
https://warrenmosler.com/mmtwhitepaper/
It's a USA paper but directly comparable to the UK. Mosler was a hedge fund manager and figured out government finances form the other side of the fence.
No - the fantasy is that you keep trying to pretend there is no limit to this - and that dire financial circumstances that brexit have caused are irrelevant.
Attempting to fix the UK without at a very minimum getting much closer to the EU is the fantasy
But Brexit has made that much more expensive for all industries to recruit,
So making recruiting fully trained overseas nurses less attractive?
Is the only solution really to find another cheaper source? Or, despite the expense, perhaps to train UK residents?
Sometimes the very cheapest solution isn't necessarily the most acceptable solution, whatever the Tories might claim.
4 years to train a nurse plus another couple of years to set up the increased training places. 7-12 years to train a doctor depending on what type.
Yes proper training and recruitment in the UK is needed but it will not have any impact for a minimum of five years. Meanwhile spain has a glut of nurses who used to come here by the thousands. Now they don't
If you want increased NHS staffing you need to recruit from overseas in the short term. Recruiting ethically from overseas outside of the EU is highly difficult
4 years to train a nurse plus another couple of years to set up the increased training places.
Which doesn't sound any longer than your solution - to rejoin the EU.
Although the obvious difference between my suggestion of training more nurses and yours of rejoining the EU is that my suggestion sounds a lot more feasible and achievable, certainly in the short-term.
Both is needed. Its not an either / or choice. We could have FOM within weeks or months with the political will
We need FOM to gain access to the pool of unemployed EU nurses. We need CU and SM to reverse the economic damage of brexit.
Without a return to the EU we will continue to fall behind economically and we are attempting to reverse the damage with both hands tied behind our backs.
Untill Starmer and labour adopt a return to the EU which a majority in the country are in favour of we will never recover the lost ground and indeed will continue to fall back economically
Recruiting ethically from overseas outside of the EU is highly difficult
Why do we need to recruit from outside the EU? There’s nothing stopping us recruiting Spanish nurses. All we have to do is let them in.
They will not come without FOM. simple as.
Pre brexit we were taking thousands each month. Now its hundreds per year
They will not come without FOM.
So give them the right to remain. We don’t need a deal with the EU we can just unilaterally give them the right to stay.
rone
Full MemberThe government and the BoE spend money into existence when they spend. That is how the model works.
Yeeess. But, what people frequently fail to take into account is that the current economic system as it works and how it's perceived to work have huge forces behind it. 20th century economics are largely fiction, but when you act like fiction is real it has momentum, and when you act like reality is fiction it's massively suppressing. Any state that switches to using more correct economics is likely to be punished by the world institutions that are invested in that existing fiction- whether that be the world bank, massive corporations etc. The US is too large for that to happen easily, the UK not so much. But also, less deliberately, people will innocently act like what you're doing is faulty, even if it's not, and that can harm you.
Perhaps most of all, the politics are not based in reality. Look at the situation right now, people are trying very hard to blame the current inflation on government spending in the financial crisis and the pandemic, and not on 2022 capitalism being all made up. And it sticks.
It's a bit like playing a game where you're the only person who actually understands the rules properly- you're going to lose because everyone else will insist on playing it differently.
So give them the right to remain. We don’t need a deal with the EU we can just unilaterally give them the right to stay.
Not enough. they will not come without FOM. Right to remain is not the same at all.
Right to remain is not the same at all.
Eh? Of course it is. All FoM means is that a foreigner has the right to live and work in this country. We could easily grant those rights to EU doctors and nurses if we wanted to.
During the night rides I've done I reckon id be ok with heading howling but if I rode past something like this I'd genuinely brick it.
I've had a fear of witches since childhood. Most annoying!
^^Erm.... I think I might have posted that in the wrong thread!
Eh? Of course it is. All FoM means is that a foreigner has the right to live and work in this country. We could easily grant those rights to EU doctors and nurses if we wanted to.
FOM movement is an awful lot more than a right to work in a country. Like bringing non working spouses and dependents, like being able to transport pets across borders freely ( believe it or not a major issue for one of my pals and why she went back to spain) Like having full rights to live in a country not only so long as you have a job with a particular employer
without FOM we are simply not getting those nurses back
^^Erm…. I think I might have posted that in the wrong thread!
Are you saying Starmer is a witch or a puritanical witch hunter?
without FOM we are simply not getting those nurses back
TJ you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me. I’m saying we could give EU nurses and doctors all the rights they previously had under FoM without us rejoining the EU. I don’t know why you have a problem with that.
It's possible that the boot really is on the other foot now. Rather than being a net "importer" of fully trained nurses from other countries, those other countries are now "importing" nurses from the UK.
I’m saying we could give EU nurses and doctors all the rights they previously had under FoM without us rejoining the EU.
And their families? But we won’t will we… and even if we did, what guarantee would they have that we won’t treat them as lessors? The treaties we are no longer a party to, and the courts that were part of that, are no longer in play here.
We need FOM to gain access to the pool of unemployed EU nurses
like being able to transport pets across borders freely ( believe it or not a major issue for one of my pals and why she went back to spain)
I guess being an unemployed nurse in Spain isn't that bad then?
How much is unemployment benefit in Spain?
More than here. She has a part time job there tho and not on benefits.
TJ you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me. I’m saying we could give EU nurses and doctors all the rights they previously had under FoM without us rejoining the EU. I don’t know why you have a problem with that.
well we could but its not something we have ever done and FOM gives a lot more rights than a visa as we have now does. Also what kelvin says
Rather than being a net “importer” of fully trained nurses from other countries, those other countries are now “importing” nurses from the UK.
Presumably only after removing those who have already left the profession for work elsewhere with better pay, conditions, less abuse, less responsibility, free staff parking, etc, et bloody cetera.
But we won’t will we…
No we won’t. But nether will we rejoin the EU. It’s massively much more difficult to rejoin the EU than it is to recruit a few thousand foreign nurses. It’s clearly a ridiculous position to say that the best/only way to solve the NHS crisis is to rejoin the EU. In fact the opposite is true. The energy, effort, and political capital needed to rejoin will distract from the task of fixing the NHS.
We can pay to train people to kill other people, why can't we pay to train people to look after us?
The answer will be tagged onto an Indian trade deal, all the people you could ever want to do whatever job you want for a fraction of what we would do it for.
dazh - without getting closer to the EU repairing the damage from brexit will never happen and neither will recruitment of EU nurses
Without getting closer at a minimum to the EU then any attempts to repair the damage is made much harder. Economic damage and inability to recruit EU nurses
Its literally the key thing. Until we rejoin or at least get a much closer relationship then we are trying to do this with both hands tied behind our backs.
Until this is accepted then the decline continues
We can pay to train people to kill other people, why can’t we pay to train people to look after us?
An excellent point. Clearly it’s not because we aren’t in the EU. It comes down to one thing and one thing only, political will.
Once again - its not impossible outside the EU but its much harder as we have lower GDP, worse balance of payments, etc etc
The key thing is a prosperous economy and outside the EU we are stuffed on that
Stuill - at least I live in Scotland where this anti eu nonsense has no traction and independence and a return to the EU and prosperity is possible.
There is no "making brexit work" Its a weird little englander fantasy
We can pay to train people to kill other people, why can’t we pay to train people to look after us?
The UK struggles at the former. Although to be fair that might be down to crapita being a bunch of pacifists rather than incompetent morons (outside of lobbying/writing contracts) meaning a lot of people give up on joining the army after crapita waste their time for months.
If the nurses are to be sourced from UK via training there are a few problems.
- The qualifications required to become a nurse
- Whether someone actually wants to become a nurse (the main issue I would guess)
- The money received for being a nurse (after the time.effort required to be one)
How many people are queuing up to be nurses rather than do other jobs for similar money?
How many people are queuing up to be nurses rather than do other jobs for similar money?
Yep just lift the pay.
Wages don't appear to be subject to the laws of supply and demand when the state needs to pay apparently. And yet the right are so keen on paying the best wages for the top talent when it's a ****ing financier.
It can afford it. Everything else is lies and distortion of monetary operations.
The money is there. There is massive power in the state to do things. Any objection to it is contraction of money flowing around the economy. Hence the recession.
Transport Secretary has just spent 20mins lying about a fictional lack of tax payers money. They're all at it.
It's the perfect argument closer.
Whilst people believe the myth expect things to carry on downwards because there is no other source of £££.
Tories are doomed currently.
Perhaps most of all, the politics are not based in reality. Look at the situation right now, people are trying very hard to blame the current inflation on government spending in the financial crisis and the pandemic, and not on 2022 capitalism being all made up. And it sticks.
Simply keep pushing back with the facts otherwise expect things to deteriorate.
Get informed etc. What else can you do?
I've written a script and am producing for a documentary about financial operations. Getting various pundits together and hopefully shooting later in the year.
It's struggle but it's worth it.
The key thing is a prosperous economy and outside the EU we are stuffed on that
A prosperous economy starts by new money being spent into the economy that then generates wealth in the private sector. Without that it's totally irrelevant what position we have with the EU.
The EU can't generate wealth for us. It can supply labour but until the UK reaches full employment then all resources are not put to work in the UK.
We are the end result of austerity.
Nursing is a bit like teaching, there are more than enough very good and fully qualified nurses in the UK without recruiting any from abroad, but you've got to provide pay and conditions good enough to convince them to quit whatever they're doing instead and go back into the profession. I reckon that if you quadrupled pay, reduced working hours, provided a free EV taxi to work or company car, hired security bods to keep peace on the wards, equipped hospitals with equipment to reduce occupational injuries, generous pensions scheme, security of employment with generous firing/reducndancy terms etc. the staff shortage would be over by the Summer.
I reckon that if you quadrupled pay, reduced working hours, provided a free EV taxi to work or company car, hired security bods to keep peace on the wards, equipped hospitals with equipment to reduce occupational injuries, generous pensions scheme, security of employment with generous firing/reducndancy terms etc. the staff shortage would be over by the Summer
I think it might be a bit less than that but generally if you offer a better reasons to go work more folk might turn up.
Also how dare you suggest a progressive way forward? We're in the business of contraction of the state.
We are the end result of austerity.
Agreed.
But you need to stop ignoring that we buy imports in currencies that the UK does not control. What they do in the USA in particular, and the Eurozone to a smaller degree, plays a big rule. The UK government isn’t the all powerful controller of money that you repeatedly paint it to be in oh so many threads. The UK is not a bubble. And it does not have the scale and diversity of the USA.
the staff shortage would be over by the Summer
If you’d said six years, not suggested six months, then I would have agreed with you. Nurses aren’t made in six months. Better pay and conditions, and increased training capacity, are key. Demographics might still not be on our side though, and there are specialisms where training in one country only to end up working in another os required. The UK is not a bubble… etc.
The EU can’t generate wealth for us
Trade with the EU can generate wealth tho and we have lost that. I have seen various numbers put on it but its the sort of sums that would give every NHS emplyee a huge pay rise. We have lost many billions as a result of brexit. thats all money lost to the economy and will continue to be lost as we are outside of the EU
We do not have that many nurses qualified but not working. We have failed to train enough nurses for 20+ years