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So, we’re blaming minimum wage earners for not paying enough tax now are we?
I think you've imagined that. It's pretty obvious why people in this country are anti-immigration (and hence anti-EU). It's because we don't have the infrastructure and scalable services to meet the needs of an increasing population, and that inevitably ends up creating competition for housing, medical services etc. We really can't have it both ways, if we want immigrant labour in our economy to do the jobs that we are either unwilling or unable to do, then we have to create the infrastructure to support them, and that's only going to happen if we fix our economic system so that we can pay for all that.
if we want immigrant labour in our economy to do the jobs that we are either unwilling or unable to do, then we have to create the infrastructure to support them, and that’s only going to happen if we fix our economic system so that we can pay for all that.
chicken and egg there
Do minimum wage car washers provide the tax income required to service their housing, infrastructure and public services demand?
people are worth more than just their tax take, social care is vitally important, not least because the knock on for the NHS and it may be underpaid but it contributes £50bn a year to the UK economy!
-no idea what the figure would be for car washes, but its a wildly under-regulated industry, notorious for sub minimum wages and employment law violations, but thats once again a failure of government, rather any immigrants working there
like care work and other sectors which can’t be automated. I see little value in importing people to do menial, servile jobs.
According to at least one nobel prize winner care work is menial and servile (I don't agree but it's often paid as such unfortunately). That along with:
importing an army of albanians or Iraqis and paying them £5 an hour to wash cars by hand?
stereotypes migrant workers in a way that is plain... .
It's not our imagination, Dazh, read back through you own posts FFS.
chicken and egg there
Well the majority in the UK have chosen to do without the eggs. The question I have is do the people who support higher immigration do so simply because they know immigrants provide a cheap resource which supports their lifestyles?
read back through you own posts FFS.
Yes Ed, I get it. Anyone who doesn't conform to your European neoliberal colonialist views is a racist. 🙄
The question I have is do the people who support higher immigration do so simply because they know immigrants provide a cheap resource which supports their lifestyles?
If you mean immigrants have at various times saved the lives of myself, of friends and of family members, and also (in my opinion) improved the quality of all our lives. Than yes. The focus on “cheap labour” when talking about immigration is about devaluing work that is poorly paid. Immigrants perform essential roles across our society, some are well paid, some are not. Doubly true in the NHS… …and back to Starmer… I’m fully behind the plan to train more staff in the UK to staff the NHS… but it will still rely on people born elsewhere though, simply due to demographics… like all sectors that rely on new younger workers coming though all the time.
I’m fully behind the plan to train more staff in the UK to staff the NHS
And it will require an improvement in working conditions (including pay) for them to follow through their training with long term careers.
One of the things with immigrants doing low paid jobs, is it realy where we are as a society where we need people escaping extreme poverty to share a bedsit with 5 other people sleeping on mattresses on the floor in shifts just in order to make ends meet. Or could we prioritise actually making every job having conditions and pay that allows people real choice and freedom in life.
If you mean immigrants have at various times saved the lives of myself, of friends and of family members, and also (in my opinion) improved the quality of all our lives
No I'm not talking about them. I don't know anyone who is against immigrants working in the NHS or other critical services. Back to the car washing example, is it ok to import workers to wash the cars of peope who can't be bothered to do it themselves? Same goes for other low-skilled manual jobs. The problem with immigration in this country is that on one side you have a group of people who rightly or wrongly feel like they have to compete with immigrants for housing, services etc, and on the other side there is a group of people who don't have to worry about those things and benefit more from immigrant labour than the other group.
Anyway back to Starmer. The reason I bring this up is that it's quite clear which side he is on with this debate, and it doesn't appear to be the side of most of his supporters. I've always thought Starmer was incapable or unwilling to choose a distinct position on most issues but he's surprised me on this.
is it ok to import workers to prepare meals for people who can’t be bothered to do it themselves?
Etc, etc. These are real jobs. Why do you seem so keen to do away with them? Because it's work that's beneath you?
Same goes for other low-skilled manual jobs.
What do you have against manual workers? You do realise that they might consider your job to be sitting around on your arse doing nothing useful while belittling them and their lives on the internet.
We should pay people who do these jobs more, wherever they are born. Perhaps we should pay people less that have non-manual jobs as well? What we value in terms of work, and how we determine the income of people right across society, needs to change.
The reason I bring this up is that it’s quite clear which side he is on with this debate, and it doesn’t appear to be the side of most of his supporters.
He's trying overly hard to look to represent the interests of a certain slice of voters he needs to win over, even where that is counter to the opinions and values of Labour members and 2019 Labour voters. It's going to be a tough path to walk... but he has to do it if he want to ensure those votes/seats turn to Labour when we eventually get to an election. A lot of people will be upset (as can be seen in the "I can't support Labour now" comments in this thread), but it's the path he has to take to beat the Conservatives. There are people that think he can just be quiet on Brexit and immigration... but he can't, otherwise that is what the next election will be fought on... Starmer is not prepared to risk that, no matter how strong the current polling for Labour. Rightly so in my opinion.
Why do you so keen to do away with them?
Because they're shit jobs which don't really add anything to our economy or society? Would you want to do them? I don't, so why should we expect others to? How far does it go? Perhaps I could hire someone who's desperate enough for some cash to wipe my arse for me, or wash my bikes?
What do you have against manual workers?
Nothing. I have a problem with many of the jobs we ask them to do which could be automated or done away with by other means.
Would you want to do them? I don’t, so why should we expect others to?
I wouldn't want to be teacher, surgeon, police officer...
Perhaps I could hire someone who’s desperate enough for some cash to wipe my arse for me
The day may come for you.
I wouldn’t want to be teacher, surgeon, police officer…
Either you don't understand my point or you're being deliberately obtuse. Do you seriously not see the problem with exploitative employment practices in the immigrant workforce and wider economy? Or maybe you're just proving my suspicion, that many supposed liberals are quite content for these things to exist as long as they are deriving some cheap benefit from them.
I see the problem. And I've stated many many times that low pay and poor conditions need addressing. But I don't dismiss "unskilled" and manual labour in the way you do. Perhaps because that's my family background. And your desire to automate away other people's jobs might catch up with your own role one day. But I don't see "arse wiping" being automated any time soon, and have huge respect for people doing a job that includes that. It's not a job I would want to do, we should pay people more in those jobs, we should value more the people who do those jobs, we should welcome with open arms people taking on those jobs, wherever they were born.
He’s doing a lot better than we thought he would though… isn’t he?
No really, no. He has continued to do the bare minimum while having the good fortune of the tories imploding. It had to happen at some time after 12 years in power and once it tipped over that was it but it was not caused by anything Starmer did. What he has been good at, which was pretty obvious at the start, is not giving the tories or right wing media anything to really get him on as he is clean and continues to be clean (pretty much by doing nothing!)
But I don’t dismiss “unskilled” and manual labour in the way you do.
FFS I'm not dismissing the labourers, I'm questioning the need for the jobs they do. These people could be deployed in much more useful areas of the economy than washing cars (as a random example). The care industry and NHS for example. And yes we should pay much, much more for them. Care workers for example should be paid at least double what they currently are. Same goes for nurses, ambulance drivers, hospital porters, street cleaners, sewage workers etc.
PS I don't exclude my own job from this. Eventually it will be automated and rightly so because writing code is a mechanistic boring activity even if it requires quite a bit of training and practice. I'd be far more useful to society doing something else.
In terms of the EU/immigration debate, it seems that instead of questioning the need for some jobs in our economy and where workers could have the most beneficial impact, the answer is simply to bring in a load of people who are desperate enough to do anything we ask for very little money in return.
No really, no.
I don't think he's given enough credit for his role. When the papers and Tories were after him for "beergate", he turned that around by saying he'd resign if it stuck... the contrast with Johnson doing everything he could to avoid responsibility for his lies and actions were stark. When Truss came along his focus on government action on climate change and the overly cautious way he focused on how we would "afford" that (to the dismay of many in this thread) was a strong contrast to Truss being in the pocket of fossil fuel interests and lobby bodies and her avoidance of scrutiny and transparency around her own "plans". One person's "bare minimum, and too slow" is another persons "the right announcements, at the right time, and not before". There could still be another 2 years of chaos and impoverishment ahead of us before we get to the point where manifestos are published.
I’m not dismissing the labourers, I’m questioning the need for the jobs they do. These people could be deployed in much more useful areas of the economy than washing cars (as a random example)
A totally unrepresentaive example at that. Immigrants don't often wash cars other than their own. Every reference you've made to what immmigrants do has been inaccurate and dreadful stereotyping. Here's how immigrants are really employed:
https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/migobs/viz/Labourmarketbriefing2021/FIG8
I don't know where you get your information from, Dazh, but you seriously need to think about your sources.
Have a look at you own sector, is that menial and servile?
A totally unrepresentaive example at that.
Maybe. But the general point still stands. Given the view of UK voters and Keir Starmer on immigration it would appear that your pro-immigration/free movement at all costs opinion isn't shared. Wonder why that is? Racists obviously! 😀
Have a look at you own sector, is that menial and servile?
I get paid to post on here. What do you think?
I should imagine an Indian trade deal will come with a supply of people to do all our shitty jobs for a pittance.
Maybe. But the general point still stands.
Have another look at the table I linked.
Wonder why that is? Racists obviously!
One point we agree on then, Starmer fears and fails to act against the racists among the electorate and in his own party. Plenty of articles in the gutter press to support that view. (add smiley to suit your views).
I should imagine an Indian trade deal will come with a supply of people to do all our shitty jobs for a pittance.
Mainly computer programming.
One point we agree on then
No we don't, in case you hand't detected the sarcasm. It's perfectly valid for people to be worried about the importation of foreign labour threatening their jobs in much the same way that they might worry about being replaced by anyone else. That's what labour laws are for, to ensure a level playing field and prevent a race to the bottom.
Mainly computer programming.
Have worked with many. It's never worked out for once reason or another. Mainly because they had a very different concept of what 'computer programming' entails as opposed to what we needed.
It’s perfectly valid for people to be worried about the importation of foreign labour threatening their jobs in much the same way that they might worry about being replaced by anyone else.
Are these the jobs that you think we should be rid of, and no one should be doing, because of automation, or because everyone should do everything for themselves instead of being lazy? Perhaps people should be worrying about automation more than their foreign born coworkers.
It’s never worked out for once reason or another.
You've been unlucky. I've found similar with programmers working offshore, but those programmers I know that have worked here in the UK have been amazing. Proper boffins who were also very professional... a rare combination. The best one I've worked with moved to Amsterdam once his first kid was on the way... it's become a real hotspot for shit hot talent since the Brexit vote.
Mainly computer programming.
The current system works just fine for the big sweatshops. Bring people over for 6 months or so to get trained and then cycle them as needed.
Once the staff come over fulltime they need paying UK wages.
Once the staff come over fulltime they need paying UK wages.
And, more importantly, are free to chose who they work for.
And, more importantly, are free to chose who they work for.
True. The yankee green card system is far "superior" in that respect for the employers.
Maybe. But the general point still stands. Given the view of UK voters and Keir Starmer on immigration it would appear that your pro-immigration/free movement at all costs opinion isn’t shared. Wonder why that is? Racists obviously! 😀
England Dazh not UK please!
here we have a pro EU pro immigration coalition running holyrood and the other parties do not bother with anti EU anti Immigrant rhetoric because it gains no traction
Have worked with many. It’s never worked out for once reason or another.
Now there's a surprise.
Now there’s a surprise.
On the previous page you were complaining about a supposed personal attack.
On this page he claimed I didn't understand sarcasm.
Edit: if you read back over a few pages you'll find a few of my light-hearted/vaguely amusing if you've got asense of humour being taken literally (mainly by Ernie). That the way he operates, he takes things which ever way enables him to attack his adversary, because that's how he sees us - adversaries.
As for Dazh he been coming out with stuff which other posters have pointed out are "dog whistles" or "Daily Mail comments section". Of course I'd understood his sarcasm but did an Ernie, and here I've palyed the same silly game, and you've noticed and picked me up on it which is great because you must think it unacceptable. Well don't discrimate, if if's unacceptable for me to use sarcasm point it out to the others to - ah, but you're on their side so you can't do that.
This place sometimes, as another couple of posters popped in to say STW politics threads are not worth getting invloved in... . But I do for a couple of days, now and then. More fool me. It's sunny tomporrow.
Well don’t discrimate, if if’s unacceptable for me to use sarcasm point it out to the others to – ah, but you’re on their side so you can’t do that.
Please show me where I said it's unacceptable.
England Dazh not UK please!
here we have a pro EU pro immigration coalition running holyrood and the other parties do not bother with anti EU anti Immigrant rhetoric because it gains no traction
10 years ago travelling the UK in a German registered car, it was Scotland where I encountered the most open racism. I don't believe that Scotland is any less racist, just that the "independent Scottish" movement has currently aligned the racists more against English rule, and being pro European is a weapon in that fight.
The welcoming Scottish utopia that you paint a picture of is not real.
Now you're definitely joining in with the bullying, Ransos. You haven't joined in with the debate for several pages and then make post clearly intended to provoke and pick a fight, because that's what you do. Anything to say about Starmer?
I stil think he's pandering to the wrong people and ignoring the fact that most Labour voters regret leaving the EU.
I had a look at the Guardian earlier, even they've got nothing to say about Starmer other than his approach to Brexit.
MSP - even if that were true its irrelevant to my point
Dazh said "Given the view of UK voters and Keir Starmer on immigration it would appear that your pro-immigration/free movement at all costs opinion isn’t shared."
that pro immigration pro EU sentiment is followed by the two parties in coalition in Scotland and anti immigrant rhetoric holds almost no sway here. DazH is making the common mistake of England = UK
AS a man of english descent with a very english name and accent who has lived 40 years in Scotland I guess I have a slightly better view than you from one trip a decade ago
As for Dazh he been coming out with stuff which other posters have pointed out are “dog whistles” or “Daily Mail comments section”. Of course I’d understood his sarcasm but did an Ernie,
How the **** did I get dragged into your latest argument with someone Ed?
I haven't made any comment on this thread since yesterday, let alone remarked on anything that Daz has said.
I am barely paying any attention to this thread as, yet again, all you want to do is talk about brexit. Despite the fact that there is a whole thread dedicated to brexit. Not a few references to brexit, page after page of nothing but brexit.
And what is this nonsense about:
if you read back over a few pages you’ll find a few of my light-hearted/vaguely amusing if you’ve got asense of humour being taken literally (mainly by Ernie). That the way he operates, he takes things which ever way enables him to attack his adversary, because that’s how he sees us – adversaries.
Posted 58 minutes ago
Thought you would take the opportunity to have a little dig at me whilst I wasn't on the thread. Or hoping to kick things off again?
And for the record I don't take anything you say seriously. Not even the stuff you now claim to be "light-hearted/vaguely amusing", whatever that is.
It may have only been one trip a decade ago for MSP but my own experience of driving a car on foreign plates in England (but not Scotland) at various times over a quarter of a century says MSP has a point. I can drive almost anywhere in Europe and mostly feel transparent, in England I drive cautiously within the law to V signs, shaken fists, aggressive overtakes/braking, horn blowing... . If I step into a car on UK plates I become transparent again.
It goes through phases, the mad cow period had French haters behaving like stock car drivers, then things calmed down only to pick up in the approach to Brexit. I haven't driven in the UK for a few years and frankly, I'm reluctant.
Thought you would take the opportunity to have a little dig at me whilst I wasn’t on the thread.
You're always on the thread, Ernie. Read back and read your own posts with the same level of critical analysis and pickiness as you do everybody else's.
There are people popping in to these threads to say they are hostile to any but the clique of fanatics and I'm pointing out why. They also rightly point out that most of it is bollocks.
I venture in knowing what to expect, STWers have been evloving these disingeneous tactics over decades now, they're tried and tested. It's a sort of intellectual sparing in which people push the moderation limits as far as they've learned they can being thoroughly odious with each other. It's a disgrace.
I don't have much to say about Brexit these days as I think there is a much bigger distorted economic picture to resolve - but I have picked up there are no easy answers currently.
No one seems to be interested in offering a solution. The debate on here highlights how fraught it all is.
Truth.
Now you’re definitely joining in with the bullying, Ransos
In other words, you can't substantiate your claim so decided to make another personal attack rather than retract it. It really doesn't reflect well on you.
We've both been around here for over a decade, Ransos, how many times have you butted into a thread to have a pop at me. Think very hard.
After a decade or so I know who's likely to:
appear out of the blue if i'm posting on a thread
put words into my mouth
distort what I say
deliberately take it out of context
quote so as to misquote
play straw man
ask a never ending succession of dumb questions (sealioning)
make ad hominem attacks (I normally just say personal attacks coz it's easier to spell)
going to be as racist/sexist/homphobic/xenophobic etc. as possible without being racist etc. but obviously is.
post some irrefutable stat or figure that misses the point completely
fail to see humour in other people's posting then claim the Edimbourg defense
challenge other peoples' credentials whilst having absolutely non themselves
join in with their bullying mates to try and get someone banned (you really didn't deserve a ban but others did) or warned or just pissed off enough to hop ship
That's the tactics that came to mind as I typed, I'd have to sit down and think for a more complete list so I'll move on to:
The result: it's an ever declining number of people prepared to stick their head above the parapet and ever more powerful clans/tribes. Given a list of members I can draw venn diagrams of both interests (positive) and allegiences in bullying (negative). Some subjects get a concensus, on some people contribute constructively but on some the battle lines were set down decades ago and the same people are still lobbing grenades at each other from the same miserable mud-filled trenches. This is one, it was mildly amusing for a few days, I'll leave you all to rip each other to bits now unless you've got anything to say on the guitar thread... . 🙂
We’ve both been around here for over a decade, Ransos
Yep, which is why I know that you like to dish plenty out and play the victim the minute someone calls you out on it. It's not very Edifying.
Now who have I learned that from? 🙂
I learned most of this nonsense as the victim before the ban and have so far survived with just one account since. Like some I others I'm not really sure how I survived or why I'm still here.
I'm pretty pholosphical about the whole thing, STW is one of the more pleasant, woke and positive places in the Anglo-Saxon Internet universe. If you look at the sum of my posting on sport, the environment, Covid, guitars, DIY... I think you'll find it's pretty constructive and positive. I'm no nihilist, if I didn't think I was contributing positively I wouldn't post.
So what I am doing in this thread? Showing people up for what they are maybe, giving them enough rope... . Look at the attitudes I've drawn out, the attitudes to immigrants and immigration, and to the UK's (mainly Westminster's) disfunctional relationship with it's nearest neighbours.
Sir Keir Starmer has a problem because his natural supporters,the woke on this thread, don't like him because he's pandering to... .
Now who have I learned that from? 🙂
No idea: why don't you tell us.
I thought you were leaving?
I learned most of this nonsense as the victim before the ban
There you go again.
So what I am doing in this thread?
Calling everyone a racist?
Look at the attitudes I’ve drawn out
Look mum! Look what I did! 😂
That was meant to be "before the great hack" rather than "before the ban", Ransos.
I'll find my coat soon. And the weather forecast is good enough to work on the roof tomorrow.
Time to start ignoring Dazh's inaccurate and provocative nonsense. (no smiley)
That was meant to be “before the great hack” rather than “before the ban”, Ransos.
Still here then.
It's interesting you assert victimhood that coincidentally no-one has any way of verifying.