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Thanks but it is not just Sunday, I care about the plight of others every day of the week. Something the tory doesn’t have to bother with.
I really wished I could be arsed to list what I have done and continue to do for other people. Year in year out I've helped so many people selflessly it's unreal.
But because I don't follow the STW lefty rabid brigade I must be a heartless racist fat cat hahaha.
*smells rat, then realises that this thread seems to be another dog whistle for some people *
Very odd because unless you’re very rich, a large landowner or CEO/director of a large business then the tories are almost certainly the wrong party to represent your interests. The reason they win is becausee a significant proportion of the electorate are too stupid to identify what is in their best interests, or are too blinded by their prejudices to look beyond the dog whistle issues.
See, I find this amazing. Because the majority do not see things your way they must automatically be stupid, too stupid to know whats good for them, or are prejudiced.
That's quite a complex.
I know plenty of Tory voters who give back more to society, especially the most needy, through their hardwork, time and effort than most people do. They just don’t see that we could all help others more by having a government that gives a shit like they do.
Can we get this back to Starmer? There’s no chance that he, or any other Labour politican, will be winning over Brads to vote for them any time soon… is there Brads?
But because I don’t follow the STW lefty rabid brigade I must be a heartless racist fat cat hahaha.
So if not a fat cat (and I don't think anyone thought you were based on your contributions on here), what attracts you to the tories over labour? Presumably their competence? 🙂
voting tory makes you culpable in the tens of thousands of deaths they deliberately caused and the millions whose lives have been blighted
And yes - the deaths as a result of the cuts were deliberate in that they knew it would happen
Bevan is still appropriate today
“That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin”
The 2020 Tories represent virtually nothing that the 80s/90s/noughties Tories did.
Nah, I’m not having that. They’re no different, they’ve always been like this. They’re just more open/brazen nowadays.
There was nothing cuddly about Thatcher and her ilk!
Okey doke.
I will vote for whoever I think will do the job that needs done at that time. I'm not dyed in any wool.
There was no chance anyone with half a brain was voting for the 70's throwback that was Corbyn and his ilk.
Imagine Abbot having a position in an actual government?. Doesn't bear thinking about.
So in answer to the above there may well be plenty chance that the right person may sway me away from the Conservatives.
Not at the moment though.
I'm not some rich (ahem) playboy developer either and the majority of Tory voters aren't.
I'm not a Xenophobe either. There are people I don't like, for various reasons but I'm sure most folk are the same.
If it makes you all feel better, I hate the Mail, reading the Sun gives you cancer and I like Idles hahaha.
I’m not some rich (ahem) playboy developer either and the majority of Tory voters aren’t.
I think other people have made that point for you.
What would it take for a Labour leader to win you over?
There was no chance anyone with half a brain was voting for the 70’s throwback that was Corbyn and his ilk.
Imagine Abbot having a position in an actual government?. Doesn’t bear thinking about.
The vast majority of the country shared your opinion on that. Hence having a Tory government. Rather than any enthusiasm for Boris, the alternative just looked even less appealing. The choice we were offered at the last election was ‘would you like your huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread?’
Nah, I’m not having that. They’re no different, they’ve always been like this. They’re just more open/brazen nowadays.
There was nothing cuddly about Thatcher and her ilk!
Thatcher was terrible but at least you knew where you stood. You may not like it (I hated it!) but you knew what she was going to do and she was horribly proficient at doing it.
These lot are liars, swindlers and con artists. They say one thing then do the opposite. They obstruct democracy at every turn. Most of all they are utterly incompetent, morally bankrupt and completely Corrupt.
I honestly think that Thatcher would take one look at this lot and would be horrified that this is what the Tory party had become. I think she’d be appalled that someone like Boris Johnson could’ve PM, and I can imagine what she’d make of having someone like Dominic Cummings dictating policy
They are so much worse than she was, on so many levels. And that’s quite some benchmark
What would it take for a Labour leader to win you over?
Good question and one I would have to think about.
Edit to cut out a long spiel about the NHS
Not getting into it on this thread really, folk don't want it to drift and I would be drifting it.
Not getting into it on this thread really, folk don’t want it to drift and I would be drifting it.
It's a thread about the current Labour leader and the question is what would a Labour leader need to do to win you over, so it doesn't seem much like thread drift to me.
It isn't because you actually have no idea, is it? Or perhaps some of the reasons may not be politically correct?
It isn’t because you actually have no idea, is it? Or perhaps some of the reasons may not be politically correct?
See that ? Is that you just being rude, or ignorant or both ?
What part of your shitty attitude would encourage me to reply ?
What part of your shitty attitude would encourage me to reply ?
I thought goading might be worth a shot. Nothing else has actually made you enunciate what it is that you actually want. So I'm left speculating.
Oh, and the speed of your response after nearly an hour of trying to slip away from having to give an outline of your reasons makes me suspect you like a bit of provocation....
Yes very good.
You probably spend too much time on the internet I think.
I did type out a rather lengthy reply mainly about the poor way the NHS is run and what a leader could do about it , just as one example, but there have a been a couple of comments about keeping the thread on track so I edited it out.
You give me no inclination to retype it all.
What would it take for a Labour leader to win you over?
This is such a key question, and arguably what this whole thread revolves around.
Well put Kelvin.
Good question and one I would have to think about.
Please answer, and anyone else reading this thread that hasn't/didn't vote Labour.
The better we understand this the more bridges can be built
You give me no inclination to retype it all.
Yeah, right-o.
🥱
I used the NHs as one example.
It is an organisation rife with money wasting. Bad contracts, bad staff , bad management.
Labour have made it clear that their answer is to spend more, this is a total waste of time and money.
The NHS needs a boot up the hole. People need to be put in place that can actually run a business , negotiate contracts and hold people responsible for providing what they are paid for.
This goes right to the roots, not just the trust managers, but the kitchen staff as well.
I know an NHS manager and the tales are ridiculous.
The Tories aren't doing it either but at least have the balls to say endless pits of money won't solve it, even though they have increased NHS funding by enormous amounts (not enough for labour though eh?)
If a labour leader said they would re-organise and manage the NHS properly to correctly use the money it is given to ensure it was correctly funded, that that would be a policy I would admire.
But they won't. They will pander to the masses who simply hate anything Tory and want the opposite done.
Yeah, right-o.
There you go. I retyped so you try being less of an arse. Fair swap?.
Enjoy checking this thread out every few weeks.
55 pages now. No ideas. No humour. No hope.
I love that the thought of Abbot having a cabinet position made you shit your pants and vote Tory...for what? The desire to have intellectual heavyweights like...
Dominic “Great Britain is an island? Eh?” Raab
Liz “The” Truss
Priti “it’s about having a deterrent...” Patel
Gavin “guns on tractors” Williamson
James “Clever”ley?
Yeah, I can see where you’re coming from brads.
To me, she seems like breathing and standing upright are a challenge.
she seems like breathing and standing upright are a challenge.
That pretty much sums up Boris. If he were a Labour politician the press would have totally eviscerated him by now. His totally absent grasp of facts and habitual lying have become the norm for the government.
If a labour leader said they would re-organise and manage the NHS properly to correctly use the money it is given to ensure it was correctly funded, that that would be a policy I would admire.
The NHS is one of the largest and most well-funded organisations in the world, with millions of employees operating across a huge number of disciplines serving people with a massive quantity and diversity of needs. It's never going to be perfect, for obvious reasons. The scale of the problem of 'managing the NHS' is so huge it can't be solved by a single policy, or a single government in a single parliamentary term.
Presumably you think it should be privatised, as that is the clear implication of your wish for it to be 'properly managed'? Have you seen how that is working out for test and trace? Or the care industry? Or pretty much any other service or utility which has been privatised? 12 billion for test and trace and they use a spreadsheet. And yet you think these grasping idiots can run an organsiation with millions of staff and an annual budget of nearly half a trillion?
You might as well be asking labour to promise world peace and free unicorns for everyone.
There you go. I retyped so you try being less of an arse. Fair swap?.
I'll try, but I can be a right arse.
Tell you what I will agree but only if I can point out the irony of:
You probably spend too much time on the internet I think.
Coming from someone who replied in about 30 seconds flat to a comment on his post that was nearly an hour old.
Pot. Kettle. Etc.
Presumptions .
No I don't want it privatised, just run properly. regardless of size.
As for the rest, I was asked and was under no illusions that the mob on here would ridicule any reply. But it wasn't you I was replying to so hey ho.
Tell you what I will agree but only if I can point out the irony of
Yeh, you can have that one. I'd have pounced on it as well, 🙂
NHS needs a boot up the hole.
The Tories have been in power for 27 of the last 40 years so who is more likely to have put it there?
increased NHS funding by enormous amounts
Compared to when and on what basis? Pure £- inflation cancover that, doesn’t necessarily mean increased service/ treatments.
With a growing & ageing population then of course spend will increase.
I agree there are inefficiencies- I worked at a dental supplier- prices from region to region varied depending on how good the respective NHS trust buyers were.
But of course if it was centralised to use bulk buying then that would be seen as too much like communist like state control. I’ve worked for plenty of plcs and they can be just as inefficient.
My wife is patient-facing NHS and she has many a story to tell with regards to waste, blagging, failing upwards etc.
But the most egregious examples of waste most often include the likes of Serco and their contractors rinsing trusts and charging the earth for basic maintenance jobs. Jobs that are more often than not done to a substandard level and result in further expensive callouts.
Being economical with resources is very often essentially left to the conscience of the individual nhs staff members. Add to this the fact that many patients and relatives etc are a massive entitled pain the arse and waste is inevitable.
There have been two examples I can remember in the last few months where multiple members of staff have had to be present or do unnecessary cleaning up because patients have been selfish and/or totally unreasonable. And they have no security staff. These are only the examples I can remember her mentioning.
Edinburgh sick kids.
Nuff said.
Some should be lined up against the wall for that fiasco.
I get that there is no easy answer, but really, that's just one example of why I haven't voted labour.
As I have said, I am actually disappointed that Starmer hasn't turned out as I hoped.
A proper robust opposition is a must have. We don't have.
Brads
See, I find this amazing. Because the majority do not see things your way they must automatically be stupid, too stupid to know whats good for them, or are prejudiced.
Brads
There was no chance anyone with half a brain was voting for the 70’s throwback that was Corbyn and his ilk.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
the NHS especially in Scotland actually is one of the most efficient healthcare systems in the world with far lower management costs than almost any other.
Poor quality management is an issue but as for the mess its in - that is totally the tories fault
woking in the NHS as I have done for over 40 years I can tell yo that under labour when funding goes up it gets better and under the tories it gets worse dure to cuts adn stupid management. did you realise that in england 10% of all nhs budget goes on administering the fake internal market?
Its also incredibly cheap for what it does
You make it sound idylic.
Anyhoo. 500 fire doors having to be replaced before they had even been walked through.
Cost is on NHS because they had already been accepted on completion of work.
Thats a whole lot of shit management and robbery.
"it gets worse due to cuts and stupid management"
Who makes those cuts.? The stupid managers per chance ?
Again, I answered the question so back to Starmer.
The cuts are the Tories fault. No one else
Explain.
Is that NHS funding going down, or is it management reducing spending ?
Damn, suckered.
Back to Starmer please. lol.
Well it's good to see that the Tories have gotten a real handle on corruption in the decade they've had in power.
I'm voting/I vote Labour - even though it'll likely leave me poorer in terms of tax if they get in - because I have absolutely no faith in the current bunch of Tories - if it were a Major or a Thatcher in charge, it'd be a more difficult choice, but they aren't so it's not.
You're the first person I've ever heard say they will vote Labour because they miss Maggie.
Sigh, not because I miss her. Because she was at least competent and it would've been a choice based upon perceived pros and cons of policy. Rather than a choice between Mr eleventy-kids-hides-in-a-fridge and someone at least appears to know what they're doing - if we had a general election tomorrow.
There absolutely will be people who have traditionally voted Tory who won’t be backing this current lot at the next election. Can Starmer persuade enough of them to back him, rather than not vote? It’s a tall ask, but it has to be part of his plan if he has any chance of being PM. People who would not normally be inclined to vote for a party on the left, but can see that we need a government made up of honest and capable people. Some of them can be won around. I don’t think you fall into this category Brads… but I strongly expect that is more due to the efforts of the spin doctors of the current administration to focus on culture wars than any admiration for the competence and integrity of their ministers and PM.
So you think Starmer is a better choice ?
More Maggie like ?
NHS funding not increasing with inflation
Total tory fault along with tory reorganisation wasting money. 10% of NHS spending in england wasted on tory market dogma
So you think Starmer is a better choice ?
More Maggie like ?
Obvious troll is obvious.
They will have a struggle in Scotland because exactly the opposite happened last time round.
Labour voters actually voted Tory.
I live in an area that has only ever been labour in my lifetime (I'm "middle aged" apparently, different thread)
Unheard off. For that to have happened, it will take some massive shift to woo then back. Starmer isn't it.
Obvious troll is obvious.
For gods sake, be adult.
NHS funding not increasing with inflation
Total tory fault along with tory reorganisation wasting money. 10% of NHS spending in england wasted on tory market dogma
Sorry, that just sounds like dogma.
My wages haven't increased with inflation. My standard of living has went up though.
For gods sake, be adult.
If you'll stop trying to be a wind up merchant.
I don’t think you fall into this category Brads
You're accusing me of cultural bias as opposed to thinking ?
Seriously ? you have to be making that up to provoke me , no ?
If you’ll stop trying to be a wind up merchant.
Does anyone else think I'm on the wind up as opposed to actually having a discussion about a politician I had high hopes for ?
Who, Thatcher?
Troll ?
Its obvious that either you are trolling or have a serious comprehension and empathy failure.
So not you then.
I am neither, but I suspect you know that but just don't want a discussion, just a rant.
They will have a struggle in Scotland because exactly the opposite happened last time round.
I don’t think Starmer has any chance of enabling a Labour recovery in Scotland, that’s a whole problem he can’t do anything about yet, in my opinion. TJ has started another thread about that though. Join in there if you want.
a discussion about a politician I had high hopes for ?
When you say “High Hopes”, what were you hoping he would do or say?
I find him dull, but have accepted for now that he looks to have a reasonable idea about how to show that the Labour Party are ready to move into government. He’s slowly dismantling the idea (with help from his opposite number) that Labour have their heads in the cloud, and the Conservatives can be trusted with the economy and general day to day business of running the government and all that entails.
Change Labour and actually make it a viable option.
And be a powerful opposition. Someone who offered alternatives that could not be ignored.
Think Kier Hardie crossed with Jimmy Reid
Someone with a solution and the skills to put it across with integrity.
In six months? During this medical emergency? With four years ‘till an election? Right… I think he is changing Labour, and people’s opinion/view of the party, as it happens.
Back to the topic. concerted attacks all day from shadow cabinet and norther mayors on tory incompetence. Looks to me like a deliberate ramping up of attacks. good politics again. Harness the anger people feel and direct at those responsible. make the tories own the mess they have made of covid response.
In six months? During this medical emergency? With four years ‘till an election? Right</blockquo
I want details.
You obviously don't want my opinion so best ignore my posts. Actually half bottle of wine and some home brewed porter in me so excuse any touchiness hahaha
Perhaps you should give details about what's required, without the anti Tory blurb.
I absolutely do want your opinion, hence the questions. What do you want him to do or say? What would he have to do to start winning you over to voting Labour?
Well I stated above some of the attitude I'd like to see.
I get that it takes time, but really, up till now all he has done is been a talking head , disagreeing and offering nothing.
Question, guys.
It's Starmer privy to all the scientific data/advice given to Johnson /Cummings regarding Covid?
In a word no
They're running the country from Cummings summer house, half the cabinet don't know WTF is happening on a daily basis. What makes you think they'd show Labour their workings?
Poor quality management is an issue but as for the mess its in – that is totally the tories fault
Nope, no way, you're not getting that.
NHS is devolved in Scotland as you damn well know, it has been under SNP government control for 13 years now and whilst we see lots of roads and bridges getting cash spaffed on them we are left with substandard crap like QE Hospital and mental health care barely better than south of the border. The NHS is a bloody mess up here as well but don't pretend we couldn't have done anything to change that.
Nope aquirrelking
Scotland has a capped budget. the NHS is something like half of all government spending. to spend more on the NHS would have meant huge cuts elsewhere. If the scots government could raise money I will give you that but as they cannot then its totally the tories fault.
the SNP government took one huge decision that made a huge positive impact on the NHS - remove the fake internal market which took 10% of the entire NHS budget to administer
There is very little the scots government could have done beyond what they have - and the NHS in Scotland is significantly better than in england
I get that it takes time, but really, up till now all he has done is been a talking head
The Tory party has a genuinely massive majority. A talking head is pretty much Starmers only option until votes are cast.
Change Labour and actually make it a viable option.
And be a powerful opposition. Someone who offered alternatives that could not be ignored.
If you actually look at opinion polls it seems hes very much turning labour into a viable option and making back ground from the Corbyn era, remember hes got 4 years to make this ground back. A week or so ago he (Kier) was up now its neck and neck again. But thats fact rather than a sweeping generalisation.
Big presser putting the boot into Johnson and co big time with a couple of tasty soundbites - and cleverly being supportive of the right measures so he canot be accused of simply saying no and opposing everything. Very good work
“Why isn’t this guy PM instead?”
I find labour just come across as trying to score political points - Corbyn did it - and now Starmer seems to do from what I’ve seen.
What we actually need opposition to be is full of proper proposals rather than just either mocking the current government or saying we need to spend more when we have a deficit rapidly going the wrong way.
Traditionally I’ve voted Tory but at the last election I voted Lib Dem in the hope there was an option inbetween labour and the tories that might try to do the right thing. Boris Johnson is a joke as PM and SKS doesn’t look a better option to me.
What we actually need opposition to be is full of proper proposals
And what do you expect to happen with the proposals?
Erm - hasn’t he just suggested a proposal, as suggested by the science?
He suggested the shutdown, one week of which would coincide with schools’ planned half-term break later this month, could be used to upgrade the UK’s beleaguered test-and-trace system. The Sage minutes said test and trace was having only a “marginal” impact on the spread of the disease.
The Guardian Today newsletter: the headlines, the analysis, the debate – sent direct to you
Read moreStarmer suggested schools could remain open, but many other businesses would close. “It would mean only essential work and travel. That everyone who can work from home should do so. Non-essential offices should be closed. Household mixing should be restricted to one household except for those who’ve formed support ‘bubbles’. And all pubs, bars and restaurants would be closed for two to three weeks – but compensated so that no business loses out because of the sacrifices we all need to make. It should also mean the UK Parliament moves to remote working,” he said.
Starmer called on the prime minister to face down lockdown sceptics in his party, and said Labour would lend him the votes he would need to get the measure agreed by the House of Commons.
“You know that the science backs this approach. You know that the restrictions you’re introducing won’t be enough … So act now. Break the cycle. If you do you will have the votes in the House of Commons. I can assure you of that. You don’t need to balance the needs of your party against the national interest.
Boris Johnson is a joke as PM and SKS doesn’t look a better option to me.
I'm not wild about Starmer but how can you say he doesn't look a better option, by a country mile? I really don't get it. A highly successful and principled lawyer/DPP vs a reckless/****less 'journalist' chancer sacked for lying on more than one occasion.
I’ve got houseplants that could do a better job of this than Joris Bohnson.
I doubt that at the start of a global pandemic Kier Starmer would have been dodging Cobra meetings, going on repeated holidays, then boasting about having walked around a hospital ward shaking hands with everyone who had Covid.
Instead, he’d have taken it seriously.
It makes you wonder where we’d be now if we’d have had SKS in charge instead of that lazy, ****less ****-wit in February
binners
Instead, he’d have taken it seriously.
I think that's the crux of it
If I’ve got this right, Captain Hindsight:
- has criticised the government for both following and not following the science
- wants a national lockdown because that’s following the science - even though the WHO have warned against this approach only this week
- has criticised the government for not consulting the regions and tailoring the plans - but is now proposing a top down national lockdown with no advance consultation with those same regions
- has criticised the government for not protecting jobs but now proposes to shut down all areas of the economy even in the areas where the rate of transmission is under control. And also hasn’t got a clue how much this will cost.
It seems to me that Sir Kier is just playing schoolboy politics - for all the talk of constructive opposition he’s doing the exact opposite.
All in all pretty disappointing- effective opposition is the bedrock of our democracy and we’ll clearly limp on as we are for a while longer.
Brilliant press conference by Starmer. The SAGE report finally gave him the chance to properly expose the incompetence of the government and propose a realistic alternative without it looking like simple political point scoring. Offering to support the government if they take that option and provide the support it would need.
I was beginning to wonder if playing the long game was going to be all he ever did, but he waited till he had enough rope to hang the government with.
He's convinced me he could be a decent PM at least.