It is obvious. You can’t take an age old anti-Semitic trope, substitute in “Israel” for “Jews”, and think that makes it okay.
I agree. But why are you so sure that is what happened here?
Surely that's the definition that's been signed up to. The claim is that Israel is such a fundamental part of jewish identity, to criticise one is to criticise the other.
But why are you so sure that is what happened here?
Yes. The very real BLM concerns should not be linked to Israel. Why do so?
The claim is that Israel is such a fundamental part of jewish identity, to criticise one is to criticise the other.
You can critise Israel. You can not claim that racist deaths in the USA are down to Israel. That kind of conspiracy theory trope must be shut down by anyone in a position to do so, they should not spread them, and then step back… mistakenly spread them, and the counter action to undo that needs to be very strong. More action is needed from RLB still, in my opinion. Many people vocally supporting her on social media are doubling down on the idea that racism in the police in the USA has been imported from Israel. She needs to act to shut that down as best she can.
It was for RLB to shut down the story
There was no story until Starmer turned it into one. If RLB is guilty of anything it's not 'spreading tropes', it's sucking up to her celebrity mates to make herself look a bit more cool and interesting. 'Ooh look at me, I'm good mates with Maxine Peake, national television star, and salt of the earth northerner'. She's not the first to do this, and won't be the last. It's a shit hill to die on qute frankly.
You can critise Israel.
Not without being anti-Semitic. See the IHRA definition.
Start another thread for that.
There's no debate on whether it was a stupid article for a Labour MP to share.
If she refused to take tweet down when asked then she is asking to be sacked.
Start another thread for that.
I'm happy to respond to your erroneous claims on this thread.
If she refused to take tweet down when asked then she is asking to be sacked.
If her account is to be believed, that's not quite how it happened.
You can critise Israel
Not without being anti-Semitic. See the IHRA definition.
From page 1, 'working definition of antisemitism' International Holocaust Remembrance Assoc website:
criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.
Anyway, enough of a derail. What point are you making?
Leave it for another thread. Please.
Leave it for another thread. Please.
It's difficult to see what your objection is, other than wishing to state your views without challenge. It's pretty obvious that we cannot reasonably debate this alleged case of anti-Semitism without considering its definition.
Anyway, enough of a derail. What point are you making?
You need to read the full text, including all of the examples.
For me the big thing is it made a point of mentioning Israel, which seemed strangely specific in the context, the racist American cop who murdered a fellow American could have picked up that particular choke hold from any number of movies, YouTube videos, etc. It's pure conjecture.
It's an incredibly short sighted thing to shared, and even worse not to retract it, and I'd expect kier would expect much higher standards from his shadow cabinet, given that Labour have rightly or wrongly been dragged through the mud on this subject repeatedly in recent history.
The victim was clearly incapacitated, and should have been in the back of the police van down the station to be charged with whatever he did. Due process.
That didn't happen, the cop chose to murder a restrained, incapacitated person. That's not on Israel, any more than it's on a martial arts film or whatever. That was the cops personal choice.
That didn’t happen, the cop chose to murder a restrained, incapacitated person. That’s not on Israel, any more than it’s on a martial arts film or whatever. That was the cops personal choice.
& blaming it on Israel means people are less likely to listen to you when you talk about Israel doing other stuff. Or less likely to listen to you in general. (Outside the bubble at least)
Apologies, even I thought that was nonsense.
we cannot reasonably debate this alleged case of anti-Semitism without considering its definition.
the reason the Labour Party got in the mess it was in on this issue is that it got totally bogged down in an endless, cyclical ‘debate’ about what did and didn’t constitute antisemitism
I’d imagine Starmers reaction to the Corbynite lefts latest outburst of their obsession with Israel was “Oh FFS!!! Not this again!!!”. Hence stamping on it immediately and decisively.
The Labour Party has bigger fish to fry at the moment than disappearing up its own arse yet again on a subject that won’t even register with 99% of the electorate.
You might not of noticed but there’s one or two quite seismic things going on at the moment, so I’m sure he’s got plenty he’s rather be concentrating on.
Given that, he can probably live with fuelling the achingly predictable paranoid persecution complex of a load of sixth formers on Twitter
are you not at risk of spreading the claimed trope
So, when calmly trying to point out what shouldn’t be spread, and why a leading politician needs to act to counter her (I believe) accidental contribution to spreading it… you accuse me of spreading it?
I call troll. Smells like baiting to me.
To be clear, linking the central concerns of the BLM movement to Israel shouldn’t be a thing. You can put this into a historical context yourself by going and doing some reading form sources you consider reliable, if my very short attempt at doing so for you is inadequate for you (and it should be).
There was no story until Starmer turned it into one
You don't think the right wing press would have used it as a werapon? I am sure they would have
Kelvin:
So, when calmly trying to point out what shouldn’t be spread, and why a leading politician needs to act to counter her (I believe) accidental contribution to spreading it… you accuse me of spreading it?
I call troll. Smells like baiting to me.
Sorry, I realised it was too far fetched, quickly edited/deleted it - then found that my idea of quick, is far too slow.
I am struggling with this issue, each time I read one side of the argument I’m swayed that way, then back again with a counter argument.
Apologies, even I thought that was nonsense.
Thanks. I can’t edit my response now, but I apologise for the Troll comment.
I am struggling with this issue
I don’t think you need to resolve anything. If you can see that the original comment in the article was untrue, and not apologising for sharing it is a poor political decision… nothing else is needed really.
Moving on.... I’ve just been reading about Wrong-Daily’s replacement as shadow education secretary, Kate Green. She sounds interesting. From the BBC site:
Ms Green, a Labour MP since 2010, said it was a "privilege" to have been asked to serve in the role.
She said the coronavirus pandemic had had a "devastating impact" on children's education and that she was looking forward to working with teachers, unions, parents and councils to "help ensure we get our children back in school as soon as possible".
Prior to becoming an MP, she was chief executive of the Child Poverty Action Group and before that, director of the National Council for One Parent Families (now Gingerbread).
Looks like someone who might well know what they’re doing in the roll and add more professionalism to the front bench, thus making the party more electable.
Imagine that? Bonkers, eh? Richard Burgon must have been unavailable
pie nails it again
Absolutely bang on! As ever!
Just to add to binners post about Kate Green...she resigned from Corbyn's shadow cabinet so that will have been seen by Starmer as a +ve.
Seems like a sound choice.
A quick glance on Twitter shows that the Momentum lot are shrieking their hysterical indignance and righteous outrage at her appointment, which is always a positive sign about some sense re-entering proceedings
She looks like the best qualified person for the job, an ideal appointment, and she's not new to education or being an MP. And losing his closest rival for the leadership whilst pointing and calling her a racist.
Looks like she was always the right appointment, starmer just had to appease his rivals for a bit then wait for any chance to enact his plan.
Moving on…. I’ve just been reading about Wrong-Daily’s
Makes juvenile comment: check
Calls his opponents sixth-formers:check
Tedious hypocrisy firmly in place: check
Opponents?
Interesting choice of phrase. I thought that was meant to be the Tory’s?
I’m a fully paid up Labour Party member, comrade.
Solidarity, brother
I take it you approve of Mr Starmers latest appointment? She seems able, well-qualified and perfectly suited to bring much to the role, yes?
She did great with Owen Smith's leadership campaign as well 😉
Oh and Binbins practice what you preach ffs. You come across like Mark Francois with all this comrade/ sixth form bs.
Kate Green has a depth and breadth of experience in child-focussed organisations and policy making which makes for a stark contrast with dead-eye williamson.
In other news... some actual opposition taking place.
Granted, it’s not a weekly 10 second shouty YouTube clip on Twitter, but... you know...
So the matter isn’t closed, Boris
Quite a contrast. Firm leadership from Labour this week and the complete absence of it by that fly-tipped sofa
Hardly surprising, Kimbers.
This, however...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1276558018684076037?s=19
As I keep pointing out, the fact that Starmer’s ratings don’t yet result in a similar rise in support for Labour is very worrying. He has a monster task on his hands, one which I don’t think anyone could complete in time. It still feels like Johnson and his successor have 9+ years between them. Obviously want to be wrong.
other polls give a very different story. showing a rise for labour as well to near neck and neck
While the Tories remain four points ahead of Starmer’s party on 44% to Labour’s 39%, the gap has closed from over 20% in February and early March when the Tories enjoyed a regular commanding lead as the country rallied behind the government, and Jeremy Corbyn was reaching the end of his time as Labour leader.
Opponents?
Interesting choice of phrase. I thought that was meant to be the Tory’s?
It should be, but you've made it pretty clear that it isn't.
At this stage and 4 years away from a GE the polls are a bit irrelevant.
Starmer being sure-footed and johnson flailing around hopelessly.
The economic fallout resulting from CV19 will be overlaid with the Brexit transition ending in a hard no deal; combination of those two events will be v bad for tories.
As for Jenrick, have we got onto his involvement with Sirius and Cleveland Potash?
He's been a naughty boy again.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/27/robert-jenrick-admits-israeli-billionaire-he-had-meeting-with-is-family-friend
Also reported yesterday that gov had dropped plans to give him more power over the planning process - oops.
The clown circus really have no understanding of optics, ethics and leadership.
The Tories had the luxury of four years without anything remotely resembling a functioning opposition. They could get away with being a circus because they had been gifted a far more inept bunch of clowns on the front bench opposite.
As Joris demonstrates at PMQ’s every week, they got very complacent - as you would when all you had to worry about was Jeremy Corbyn - and they’re not equipped to deal with the change in circumstances
We’ve about to enter an absolute economic shitstorm the likes of which we’ve never seen before, with Covid fallout and a no deal Brexit
The general public’s tolerance for clowns, whether they speak Latin or not, will wear thin very, very quickly.
In marked contrast to RLBs tinfoil-helmet conspiracy theory nonsense, Lisa Nandy is leading the call for sanctions on Israel, which even the Daily Telegraph surely couldnt even spin as antisemitism
Lisa Nandy urges ban on imports of West Bank goods
So ‘Becky’ must have known about this. I can’t imagine she didn’t. Which makes what she did about ten times as stupid.
Seems she really is as politically clueless as her Bearded, allotment-dwelling cheerleader. Possibly even more so. Which is quite an achievement
Starmer has opponents in his own party just as Corbyn did. Strangely, the people who are Starmers opponents are the same people who said Corbyns opponents should get behind Corbyn and put differences aside for good of party.
It makes a lot more sense to get behind Starmer as he is not a liability and in fact the opposite as the leader polls show, he is preferred to that lovable Boris character.
I don't think I've ever seen a label saying 'made in illegal settlements in the West Bank' over at the Co-op. Do things still get re-labelled like the orange juice from apartheid SA resold as Jaffa? How about all those avocados they are so keen to export, are they legal and ok?
TJ: 'neck and neck', tres bon!
As CFH suggests, while Starmer is doing a good job (in my view) of being the opposition there is some work to be done in getting people to see the labour party as government material.
I don't really know what people see in the current crop of Torys. Starmer needs to figure this out and provide an alternative. This could be tricky because at the minute it seems to be mostly about brexit and immigration driving their support.
