Forum menu
we can be fairly sure he’ll be more proactive. I think we could see a tsunami of legislation in the first couple of years
I honestly have no idea where you get that idea from. I see a man who goes out of his way to say as little as possible. I base my opinion of what sort of PM he will be on what sort of opposition leader he has been - not very good imo.
The current 20 plus lead Labour are enjoying is overwhelmingly down to the Tories and little to do with Labour. For over a year now the Tories have staggered from one crises of their own making to the next crisis of their own making.
Starmer has sat back and watched a Tory government destroy itself. When he is PM in about 18 months time that will no longer be an available strategy. I have little doubt that once the light is shining on him and his government instead of the Tories, and he is exposed to intense scrutiny, that his personal popularity, as it is, will plummet. But we will see, not too long now.
Hmmmm
I think he will be perfectly competent as PM - as before I see him as a technocrat. Pity his ambition is so low and his outlook so right wing
I don't think he will blunder and make mistakes in what he tries to do.
I thought you said that he was a vote loser because of his brexit stance?
That was this morning, apparently based on the opinions of everyone around you - family and friends.
Now not only do you think that he will become PM but that he will actually make a "perfectly competent" one.
When did this change happen? About mid-afternoon?
Starmer will do fine as PM and I would take whatever he does over any Tory government. The only way a government would get anywhere near to perfection would be if I was running it and then my perfection would not be your perfection so see the problem?
A lot of people seem to forget that it is the voters who choose not a few idealists on an MTB forum and those people (for many reasons) tend to vote Tory more than anything else so maybe they actually agree with the Tory philosophy but get fed up with the reality after 12 years or so.
Starmer’s anti-democratic credentials will help to achieve your rejoin dream
Anti-democratic? When the current course of action is only supported by a minority of the electorate? Hardly.
Of course, it could be settled by a confirmatory vote, but presumably that would be anti-democratic too?
Ernie The two things are compatable.
Starmer supporting brexit is a vote loser. If he backed rejoin I think he would be more popular and would win seats in remain areas more than he would lose seats in leave areas given the majority for rejoin in the vcountry. I expect Labour to end up with no seats in Scotland. Certainly not more than a couple. The right policies ( rejoin, proper constitutional reform and so on) could win labour dozens of seats in Scotland but he is not interested in these policies or in Scotland
He will be perfectly competent in that he will not make major blunders like Truss did. He is a competent technocrat
The problem is he will be competent at being tory lite rather than being socialist. He will get where he wants to go but where he wants to go is tory lite territory
A lot of people seem to forget that it is the voters who choose not a few idealists on an MTB forum and those people (for many reasons) tend to vote Tory more than anything else so maybe they actually agree with the Tory philosophy but get fed up with the reality after 12 years or so.
I love how the solution to a broken system is more right-wing ideas because the left can't seem to construct a strong enough reason and solution to push back. I mean if you can't construct a robust left idea now then you probably never will.
The current labour party are full of cowards.
Just removing the Tory party in istelf might be a breath of fresh for about 10 minutes.
Then when you're saddled again with similar outcomes with the economy as the Tories, simply don't expect things to be much better.
Starmer is the worst type of leader - I sat through his boring speech and as usual full of empty space and contradictions. People are desperate, so they look for positives.
Even the much touted GB energy is full of holes and misdirection, and bullshit private investment mess.
Looking for crumbs is not a way out.
The upside is I expected nothing more really. And won't be that shocked when it all goes to hell.
Fortunately for those of us in Scotland we do have a choice of 2 social democratic party of the left to vote for if we want. In England you don't have that ( well none with a hope of gaining seats bar the greens in Brighton)
I see a man who goes out of his way to say as little as possible.
It’s pretty obvious why he says very little, to placate the rightwing press and avoid any ‘red Ed’ headlines. It’s worked too, the best they’ve come up with is the pathetic ‘captain hindsight’.
As to what he’ll do I’m going purely off the policies and the fact he has a bunch of senior northern MPs around him who will not let him sit on his hands. Blair wasted the opportunity he had in 97, and Labour have surely learned that lesson.
As to what he’ll do I’m going purely off the policies and the fact he has a bunch of senior northern MPs around him who will not let him sit on his hands
Those northern MPs are the ones who are making him support brexit which equates to refusing to do the one single most important thing to improve the UK. Starmer has put the need to appease racists in a few northern constituencies above the good of the country as a whole and above the wish to take scottish seats
I repeat. the SNP are hugely vulnerable but by moving from social democratic to tory lite he has refused that open door. Proper constitutional reform and rejoin would win them seats in Scotland and end the threat of independence. Instead because he neither understands or cares about Scotland he is not going to take that opportunity
Starmer has put the need to appease racists
TJ has danny/saucemerlin (I forget the other pseudonyms) hacked your account? Won’t be long til your talking about nazis.
I'm pretty sure TJ can see with his own eyes what is obvious to a lot of us - irrespective of the views of any other posters on here. 🤷♂️
TJ you really need to get over your obsession with Scotland, you mention Scotland in every single post - 6 times so far this morning.
I don't think Scotland should be ignored but it isn't the only thing that matters to the British people. 92% of the British population don't live in Scotland, there are other issues.
How would you feel if people who live in London, which has a population twice the size of Scotland's, banged on about London in every single post?
They do directly or indirectly. You do. The only point of view you ever express is a london centric one. You do think Scotland should be ignored as you are content with labour policies like brexit that are an anathema north of the border. Westminster politicians like Starmer ignore scotland
Now you are seeing a ;little of the constant frustration we have north of the border where the london centric view is the only one considered
The point is a simple one. In an attempt to win back some seats in England by appeasing racists Starmer is ignoring the opportunityt to win far more seats in Scotland
You do
You do think Scotland should be ignored
Oh okay, I mention London in every single post and I think Scotland should be ignored.
If you believe that then discussing the issue with you is about as useful as discussing whether the earth is flat.
No = you espouse a london centric view. constantly. You don't even realise it. its very common.
I believe labour could take 30 seats in Scotland given the right policies.
Scotland is my country and my home. Of course its what I am concerned about. Your post above shows just how londoncentric you are. Several other posters on here have said things like " no one cares about Scotland" You wonder why we see no alternative to independence
such views as " no one cares or discusses brexit any more" Very anglo centric / london centric view.
"no one discusses brexit any more is simply wrong. what yo actually mean is no one in your circle / in your area does
"I base my opinion of what sort of PM he will be on what sort of opposition leader he has been"
Very different role. Different skillset required - some party leaders have both but not many. Boris for instance would probably make a great leader of the opposition but was obviously a complete failiure as a PM, even in the eyes of his own party. I think Starmer with his actual change management experience, attention to detail, and genuine work ethic will be perfectly suited to at least starting to repair the damage. He won't be shooting his mouth off every five minutes and perhaps politics can drop off the front pages for a while which will be a blessed relief for everyone. As to him being a closet tory or whatever, please remember that we don't currently have a tory government - they were flushed out long ago. We have a rag bag of disaster capitalists, nationalist racist scumbags and actual real life crooks. I don't believe that even in a centarist labour party the same level of corruption is anywhere near as prevelent. Don't underestimate the difference that this will make.
I don’t believe that even in a centarist labour party the same level of corruption is anywhere near as prevelent
Perhaps not as corrupt but we still have the bought and paid for Streeting saying the only way to help the NHS is more privitisation because he is corrupt
I love how the solution to a broken system is more right-wing ideas because the left can’t seem to construct a strong enough reason and solution to push back. I mean if you can’t construct a robust left idea now then you probably never will.
Didn't say it was a solution, just one way to react to the cards we are dealt. You can bitch and whine about how bad it all is but you can only vote for the parties that are available. Yes I would love for a progressive Labour party to be on offer but would they win?
Corbyn's Labour was the nearest we have got for a long time and was still miles away from a decent Labour party but we know how that went down with the voters.
Corbyns issue was the labour right constantly briefing against him feeding the tory press and party with easy attack lines. He still had a higher % of the vote than many others and would have been PM without the labour / tory pact in Scotland ( of a weak minority gov but even so) What sabotaged Corbyn was the labour right. Nowt else. the labour right preferred to lose an election than to have a left of centre government. They won which is why we now have a central right labour party and only in Scotland do we have a major left of centre party to vote for ( Oh i'm not supposed to mention scotland even when the scots experience gives lie to the anglo centric view)
Er...
we still have the bought and paid for Streeting saying the only way to help the NHS is more privitisation because he is corrupt
...what?
I mean he's wrong about private sector capacity being other than of marginal use for clearing waiting lists, but corrupt? Really??
Otherwise please carry on. I sense exhaustion setting in amongst the thread regulars. One more SNP (the hole between the buttocks you're so frequently citing) digression and I think they'll crack... Or the reason people didn't vote for Corbyn's labour being the labour right 🙂 ... That should do it.
Streeting is in the pay of private healthcare companies and has been for years. So IMO corrupt as more privatisation of the health service is counterproductive but he is promoting it.
such views as ” no one cares or discusses brexit any more” Very anglo centric / london centric view.
London is as strongly Remain as Scotland.
so is every MP whose office is part funded by a union say, or private donor necessarily corrupt? They certainly have an interest to declare, but corrupt?
Didn’t say it was a solution, just one way to react to the cards we are dealt. You can bitch and whine about how bad it all is but you can only vote for the parties that are available. Yes I would love for a progressive Labour party to be on offer but would they win?
Now? I think they absolutely would.
Nowt else. the labour right preferred to lose an election than to have a left of centre government.
Absolutely.
Think how this was ridiculed at the time.
A reminder that Starmer campaigned to get that government elected.
so is every MP whose office is part funded by a union say, or private donor necessarily corrupt? They certainly have an interest to declare, but corrupt?
Basically yes. They cannot be trusted to work for the good of their country or constituents if they have another paymaster. Those private medical interests are not funding Streeting out of the goodness of their heart. They are funding him so he does what they want and its working. Streetings promotion of private healthcare is counterproductive in solving NHS issues so he is actively working against the interests of the country. He may know this and be consciously corrupt or he may not realise it being a useful idiot to them
The level of corruption in UK politics is huge - its just been legalised
To go back to an earlier point about refusing to join the EU or even get closer to them and recruitment of healthcare professionals
NHS trusts in England have increased recruitment from low-income “red list” countries to make up for the post-Brexit loss of EU staff, despite a code of practice to safeguard health services in those developing countries.
So to counter the loss of EU staff who are not going to come here without FOM we are stripping vital healthcare staff from countries that its aknowledged we should not because its unethical
So to counter the loss of EU staff who are not going to come here without FOM we are stripping vital healthcare staff from countries that its aknowledged we should not because its unethical
It was always going to be this way. Not least because those calling loudest for "training more of our own instead" go and vote for politicians unprepared to put the money and effort required into ramping up training. Hopefully that'll change soon... but it'll take a decade to play out if/once it does begin to happen. In the meantime...
In the meantime......
If Starmer would admit that
1) we need to import nurses as we don't have enough of our own and wont for many years
2) stripping healthcare staff from red list countries is unethical
3) the only solution short term is FOM with the EU
then we could be on the way to an ethical solution to this.
Think how this was ridiculed at the time.
I'm happy to ridicule it now too, just a bit pressed atm. Hth
In the meantime……If Starmer would admit that
He doesn't need to say anything. He knows that barring some sort of phoenix like Tory resurrection under Sunak he's only got to wait a year and a few months till he's in charge. It's unlikely to go to Jan '25 as General elections are normally held in May/June.
Better to keep quiet than risk chipping away at any lead he has.
Now? I think they absolutely would.
And I think they absolutely wouldn't. Guess we just have different views of the voting population...
Can you win an election without the support of the hate press?
The muffin man - in which case he is condemning the NHS to either further decline or unethical recruitment
And I think they absolutely wouldn’t. Guess we just have different views of the voting population…
Well I think the Tory vote has probably imploded currently - without anything Starmer has done particularly well.
And people are properly struggling - so you think the public would not vote for things to fix that?
No wonder we don't agree.
Can you win an election without the support of the hate press?
I know I am not supposed to mention Scotland but the SNP have in the face of not just a hostile hate press but hostile mainstream media
The muffin man – in which case he is condemning the NHS to either further decline or unethical recruitment
Realistically what can he actually change in the next year though?
To come out with pro EU statements now risks pushing red wall voters they lost back to the right.
It'd be like a football manager being 3-0 up in a FA Cup Final with 20 minutes to go and then subbing his entire first team for the under 12's and wondering why they lost 3-4.
He's got a good lead and needs to do the political equivalent of football shithousery - knock the political ball around by the opponents corner flag and take easy digs when they arise.
You might find this bit from John McDonnell on the fully-costed 17/19 Manifestos worth a look or not.
You know my thoughts on the crud that is fully funded - but I was just making the point a few discussions ago about this and I'm pretty sure you put up a point the 2019 wasn't costed.
https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1611073860740255744?s=20&t=0n_W3WcbWRaX751NtkZudg
I haven't got a dog in this one just to say the tem "fully-costed/funded" opens you up to all sorts of misrepresentation, and Reeves making out stuff previously wasn't fully costed is just blantant lies.
Realistically what can he actually change in the next year though?
Now? Very little because he has nailed his colours to the brexit disaster. Very little after the next year either because he has ruled out the single most effective policy he could have
If he had spent the last 6 years nailing the brexiteer and tory lies and being a leader we could have had a very different political consensus and he could have taken advantage of the shift towards the EU in public opinion and that shift would have been greater
Instead he just repeats the brexit lies has thus has lost all room to maneuver
And people are properly struggling – so you think the public would not vote for things to fix that?
No, I don't think they would - or not enough of them. Remember a lot of people are not struggling and a lot of those that are struggling don't believe a Labour party would fix anything for them.
By not being radical he is not putting those people off. A lot of voters simply didn't believe that Corbyn could do what he said and he was only talking about mild changes.
The brainwashing against Labour in this country is fairly strong.
Instead he just repeats the brexit lies has thus has lost all room to maneuver
Do you want him to win an election or win an ethical points scoring game?
It's easier to do a u-turn when your backside is in the main chair at No.10 for 5 years than on the opposition front bench.
I would like him to show leadership and not to lie. i believe doing those two things would be a vote winner. Remember what we are seeing is not a positive vote for labour but a anti tory vote. the polls still have Sunak as a better PM than Starmer
Has a starmer said anything about Europe rather than brexit? “Make brexit work” is just nonsense for idiots.
Has he said how he is going to increase trade and reduce queues? Has he actually had talks with anyone at the eu , does he too have an oven ready plan?
Or are we in for another session of letting the markets decide by having them **** off to the mainland?
I want my glimmer of hope , please supply one.
Teeny tiny things, like the urgent veterinarian and food standards agreements that UK farming and fishing, retail/hospitality in NI, and cost conscious shoppers need. Nothing big enough to put the “save Brexit” sword into the hand of Johnson if he’s back for the next general election.
It’s easier to do a u-turn when your backside is in the main chair at No.10 for 5 years than on the opposition front bench.
That is how to disenfranchise voters "they are all as bad as each other" etc
One of the reasons Mick Lynch and a couple of other union leaders have cut through the media narrative and connected with people is because they have talked earnestly with a bit of passion in representing normal people. After years of deception and spin the electorate are crying out for a bit of honesty, telling the truth will connect and re-engage with voters.
Populism works when the "normal" political class smugly believe that the electorate can't be trusted with the truth, everyone can see the lies but the uncertainty of what the reality is leads to the populists leveraging even greater lies and deceptions for their own gain.
That is how to disenfranchise voters “they are all as bad as each other” etc
Yup. It normalises the lies and allows the really dishonest to benefit.
Its a variant on the dont object to a government passing a law which is easy to abuse because you can trust them not to do so. Maybe but what about the next?
Remember what we are seeing is not a positive vote for labour but a anti tory vote.
Yes and Starmer has to tread carefully to ensure an anti Labour vote doesn't start to erode the anti tory vote (plus these are polls and nobody has actually voted yet of course)
If Starmer was pushing a socialists dream then the powerful people and organisations within the country who REALLY don't want that to happen would do all they can over the next 2 years to damage the chances of it and they would turn the anti tory vote around massively over that time. Yes it sucks and it is dreadful for democracy but we know that is what happens in this country.
If Starmer was pushing a socialists dream then the powerful people and organisations within the country who REALLY don’t want that to happen would do all they can over the next 2 years to damage the chances of it and they would turn the anti tory vote around massively over that time
Key - it doesn't have to be a socialist's dream.
Plenty of ways in the current environment to be doing solid things without the term socialist involved.
And anyway what is so wrong with the state owning and operating things - given the current system is driven by failure of the market, it might start to click that market is mythic overlord serving very few.
Redefine the narrative - too much in the Labour party is driven by Tory narrative, and frankly cowardice.
It’s easier to do a u-turn when your backside is in the main chair at No.10 for 5 years than on the opposition front bench.
Doubt it - once you've shown your colours you are going to want to stay in power - that would mean keeping the establishment happy according to the your own rules of gaining power.
And anyway what is so wrong with the state owning and operating things – given the current system is driven by failure of the market, it might start to click that market is mythic overlord serving very few.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I would love a socialist government remember. I am just not as convinced as you that one would be 'allowed' to get into power by those in control of the country.
But as Starmer is not doing anything to prove/disprove it we will never know...
But as Starmer is not doing anything to prove/disprove it we will never know…
It's just a frustrating waiting game isn't it?
It’s just a frustrating waiting game isn’t it?
Yup. Given that he abandoned his leadership manifesto I suppose it's equally possible that he'll pivot away from his current position once in power.
equally possible that he’ll pivot away from his current position
Well just as long as he's not lying.
We don't like Prime Ministers who lie.
The Tories had to get rid of a PM because he was a liar.
He already is lying. " no economic benefit to getting closer to the EU" to paraphrase. Lie.
What are you paraphrasing from? Labour have already said the current "oven baked" deal isn't working, and proposed the first step towards improving on it and facilitating cross border trade for some currently stalled sectors.
Leader of the Labour Party Keir Starmer has agreed that re-joining the European Union would not benefit the UK economically. In an answer to a question from BBC Radio 4, Starmer stated that joining the EU again at this stage would not boost the economy and that there was no benefit of entering the single market system.
The Labour leader said: "There's no case for going back to the EU or going back into the single market."
As reported in much of the press and an outright lie
Redefine the narrative – too much in the Labour party is driven by Tory narrative, and frankly cowardice.
That I can agree with.
As reported in much of the press and an outright lie
Ah... back to the joining the EU... not happening... would take ages... no economic benefit in the short term while we try and arrange getting back in (in fact many investments would be put off to wait out the period of preparing to rejoin). What you said was... ”no economic benefit to getting closer to the EU” ... and Labour are proposing getting closer to the EU... just not joining it (or joining the SM)... which would take years and risk keeping the Tories and their aggressive divergence strategy in place for at least another 5 years.
The Tories had to get rid of a PM because he was a liar.
No they didnt. They selected him for that reason.
They finally got rid of him due to his dubious hiring criteria.
As reported in much of the press and an outright lie
Do you want him to fight the next election on a rejoining the EU basis? Prepare for a hung parliament if that’s the case as it would be the only topic on the doorsteps.
Its still an outright lie. The biggest thing he can do to sort out the mess is rejoin. This has lost him huge support IMO / IME
A bunch of folk I know were considering voting labour. None will after that bit of nonsense
Labour are now a brexit party and its cost them huge support and everyone can see he is ;lying about the benefits of rejoin. Its again IMO a huge part of why labour support is so soft.
It’ll cost them minimal support as most people have accepted Brexit was crap but it’s a closed issue - bar some tweaking in certain areas. You’ve said in the echo chamber thread your social media circle is made up of like minded people.
The Tories had to get rid of a PM because he was a liar.
No they didnt. They selected him for that reason.
Well if being a liar is a credible qualification for the post of PM I am sure that it will come as a huge relief to Keir Starmer.
He won't have to worry about abandoning "my pledges to you", which are still proudly displayed on his website:
https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
Prepare for a hung parliament if that’s the case as it would be the only topic on the doorsteps.
Given the majority opinion in the country is now for rejoin and leave sentiment is now very soft and given the vulnerability of the SNP then a rejoin manifesto I believe would have been a vote winner and would have given more seats. But he has squandered that by becoming a brexiteer.
he should have been hammering at this since the vote. Cost of living crisis - blame tories and brexit. NHs Crisis - blame tories and brexit etc etc inflation etc etc
Now instead of being able to blame the tories for brexit he has taken ownership of it all in the name of appeasing some racists in a few northern england constituencies. He no longer can use brexit as a weapon to beat the tories with
And don't think this is not going to be an issue in the next GE. Remain parties will make it so and now they can pin the blame on Starmer as well as the tories
its a spectacular open goal. with this brexitteering from him he has removed the best attack lines he could use and ruled out the best way of economic recovery. He clearly is going to be an english PM only which will of course increase the push for independence in Scotland and make it more likely.
A bunch of folk I know were considering voting labour. None will after that bit of nonsense
The question is whether to believe the bunch of folk you know, or all the pollsters whose entire businesses rely on providing credible methodology on the subject.
Without exception they are all claiming that if there was a general election right now it would be like a walk in the park for Labour.
If they have all got it wrong then their clients, who pay them large amounts of money, won't be very happy bunnies.
which would take years and risk keeping the Tories and their aggressive divergence strategy in place for at least another 5 years.
That's what TJ and Nicola Sturgeon want because they weirdly think the tories will give them a referendum on independence.
Labour are now a brexit party
No, labour campaigned to remain. Brexit happened 6 years ago and is done and settled. If you want to carry on replaying the arguments about something that was settled quite a while ago go ahead (ideally on the brexit thread), the rest of us have better things to do.
As you have admitted yourself Ernie that labour lead is very soft as its anti tory not pro labour. Sunak is still seen as the best PM and tories best on a number of measures
Its my opinion that a strong rejoin case would be a different based lead but much stronger and most importantly if you are a unionist would take dozens of seats off the SNP. so my view is a strong remain case may lead to a loss of a few northern english seats but a much larger gain in Scotland and southern england
It would also give him a UK wide mandate which he is not going to get. he has basically abandoned every remain voter and remain voting area. He is relying on no alternative in some areas.
That’s what TJ and Nicola Sturgeon want because they weirdly think the tories will give them a referendum on independence.
Thats pure nonsense. I don't know if you are trolling or if you really are that ignorant.
Edit. Sturgeon and I share one thing - a deep loathing of the tories. Starmers position is now Tory lite. Brexit, privitisation and more austerity. FFS please give the people a positive reason to vote labour and FFS please stop lying over brexit. there is no "make brexit work"
Labour are now a brexit party. they are in favour of brexit and every labour voter is also supporting brexit. If you vote labour now you are supporting brexit.
its far from a settled issue. Its not going away, its not over. Labour are going to be beaten with the brexiteer tag and its going to cost them votes and seats
As you have admitted yourself Ernie that labour lead is very soft as its anti tory not pro labour. Sunak is still seen as the best PM and tories best on a number of measures
I haven't admitted anything about the Labour lead being soft. I believe it is built on very strong anti-Tory feelings rather than pro-Labour, most of the electorate have little idea what Labour stands for other than they aren't Tories or Liberal Democrats, but the Labour lead is absolutely solid imo, poll after poll proves it.
If it was soft there would be the occasional blip in response to events, this is what tends to happen when support is soft. This hasn't happened, even when Labour has talked of 'making brexit work'.
And I believe that Labour's lead will remain solid right up until the actual general election, there is no reason to assume that it won't. Although it will probably narrow to something like Labour 45% Tories 30%, opposition leads usually narrow in the final days before a general election.
I believe it is built on very strong anti-Tory feelings rather than pro-Labour,
thats soft support
Its all just opinions. Yours differs from mine - possibly because we are looking from very different directions
Although it will probably narrow to something like Labour 45% Tories 30%
How much will this new brexit party skew things?
Will the red wall shift to the brown shirt wall ?
So by voting Labour at the next general election I'm a brexit supporter?! You don't half come up with some utter rubbish TJ.
thats soft support
I certainly believe that once in government support for Labour will collapse very quickly. Because frankly imo they have no real solutions, or strategies that are significantly different to the Tories, or if they have will lack the commitment and courage to carry them through.
So granted Labour support is soft in that respect but imo it will remain solid right up until election day. It is being in power that will discredit Labour. Just like it did the Liberal Democrats - when you don't have any solutions which are fundamentally different to the Tories's you can expect to lose credibility very quickly.
its far from a settled issue. Its not going away, its not over. Labour are going to be beaten with the brexiteer tag and its going to cost them votes and seats
Unfortunately Brexit gained the Tories a load of seats so it's a bit rich to say it will lose labour votes now. However I'm still intrigued by there latest polls. But I don't think old wounds should be opened up.
It's definitely over for the time-being. Anti-immigration sentiment is not going away unfortunately.
Maybe if a party fixed stuff then people could see it's not a migrant issue?
There could be loads of reasons to vote Labour if they came up with them, despite Brexit.
A complex issue shoe horned into a black and white debate.
But I don’t think old wounds should be opened up.
The wound is still fresh and gaping open. Its far from over and will still be a live issue at the next election
No matter how much you wish it away and no matter how much labour and tory work together to try to exclude any debate on it its not over, its not an old wound and it will be a major issue at the next election
I feel sorry for those of you in England that only have tory parties to vote for. You have the original tories, you have the tory enablers and you have tory lite.
So by voting Labour at the next general election I’m a brexit supporter?! You don’t half come up with some utter rubbish TJ.
Yup
Labour are now a brexiteer party. Brexit is the single biggest political issue in my lifetime. If you vote labour you are tacitly supporting brexit and Starmers lies over brexit.