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Appeasing the far right on Brexit would not have helped
Appeasing the far right is what Dazh, Enie and Starmer are doing with this weird pretense that Brexit is not the issue, that is unchangeable and that labour can make brexit work
You can try and wish away the consequences of Brexit, but they wont dissappear that easily
Apparently you just have to convince the electorate that the consequences are due to something else and somebody else's (preferably foreign) fault.
And frankly I can’t think of a better way of politically alienating people by banging on about it. An obvious fact which even the Labour Party accepts.
funny thats not happening in Scotland? Weird isn't it that we can have a pro EU party leading the country, telling the truth about the brexit disaster and still with polling above any english party
so actually this is not an obvious fact. Indeed its neither obvious nor a fact as here we can see something differnt
appallingly low level of support for the LibDems, the only major party of recent government to support rejoining, I think we can safely dismiss that possibility.
Oh its that pariochial london centric view again. the SNP are in government, are unashamedly pro EU anti brexit and have a consistent piolling above any english party. Its almost as if being pro EU and to keep remuinding folk how the right have ****ed the country with brexit is a vote winner - if you have leaders prepared to lead.
we will still be discussing Brexit for some time.
On here, and shoehorned into every conceivable thread possible, not just the one dedicated to the subject, but not in the real world.
You can try and wish away the consequences of Brexit, but they wont dissappear that easily
It's not simply about what I want. It's the fact people are not still discussing Brexit. For example I can't remember the last time Brexit came up as a subject of causal chit-chat at a coffee stop.
But subjects like the ambulance service crisis, train strikes, extreme weather, and energy costs, are all topical.
Sure some people want to somehow connect Brexit with all those issues - I constantly see the tenuous links all the time on here, but if you offer rejoining the EU as the solution to everything no one is actually going to take you seriously, they won't even bother listening.
but if you offer rejoining the EU as the solution to everything no one is actually going to take you seriously, they won’t even bother listening.
Simply untrue Ernie - open your london centric parochial eyes and look to Scotland. the SNP are not cowards on this. They show leadership not appeasment and they quite rightly keep brexit and the EU in its rightful place in political discussion - central to it and have polling at around 50%.
The truth is that rejoining the EU is important to a great many folk. Its constantly discussed, its not a vote loser to do so.
the SNP are in government, are unashamedly pro EU anti brexit and have a consistent piolling above any english party
If you think that's what it's about I look forward to a SNP government ruling the UK in about 18 months time.
If rejoining was such a vote winner you can be absolutely sure that every single self-serving career politician, including Keir Starmer (to bring the thread back on topic) would be clambering to support it.
Why wouldn't they ffs?
Why wouldn’t they ffs?
Cowardice. Fear of the right wing press and poor tactics. Doing the opposite to the labour party has worked well for the SNP so obviously your arguement holds no water
Edit - its back to the labour party having been turned into a party of followers not leaders. Here the SNP provide leadership and are prepared to lead public opinion not follow it. Guess what - its a vote winner
Cowardice. Fear of the right wing press
The only reason a self-serving political careerist such as Starmer needs to fear the ring-wing press is if they scupper his electoral ambitions.
If having a second referendum to rejoin the EU is such a vote winner they obviously won't be able to do that.
Edit – its back to the labour party having been turned into a party of followers not leaders.
So now you are claiming that the Labour Party is following opinion rather than leading it. Which is obviously the complete opposite of what you were saying - you were claiming that Labour were ignoring public opinion.
In general not on this specific issue as regards the followers not leaders - on brexit they are not even following public opinion
Ernie - answer me this. If being pro EU is such a vote loser and no one wants to hear about this why are the SNP still polling so high?
I am not saying that "being pro EU is such a vote loser", I am saying that for most people outside Singletrackworld it is an issue of no or very little importance.
Which in part helps to explain why the LibDems level of support is still as incredibly low as it was before the referendum. Whilst support for the Brexit-supporting Labour Party is huge, in some cases about 50% of voters.
There are other more important issues which concern voters, despite the STW mantra that everything is Brexit's fault.
I am also saying that banging on about Brexit at every opportunity turns people off. Except maybe on here.
I am also saying that banging on about Brexit at every opportunity turns people off. Except maybe on here.
And in Scotland in general and also in the circles I am in brexit is a constant topic
We do not have that many nurses qualified but not working.
We do, I checked that before posting. Now you check before dissing. When you diss stuff the onus is on you prove you're right.
Over 20 000 nurses have left the profession evey year since 2016:
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/peak-leaving-a-spotlight-on-nurse-leaver-rates-in-the-uk
Only 43% of those who left retired and only 12% left the UK. The others quit for various reasons and under the conditions I suggested many would return:
https://www.nurses.co.uk/blog/stats-and-facts-uk-nursing-social-care-and-healthcare/
That's just six years, go back further and as with teachers there are hundreds of thousands who quit to do something more lucrative, less hassle etc..
Bleedin 'ell you still banging on about Scotland TJ??? I you have the nerve to talk about my alledged, quote: "london centric parochial eyes"! 😂
London has a population which is more than twice the population of the whole of Scotland and Wales put together, but even I accept that there are other parts of the UK other than where I live!
London is overwhelmingly Labour, there is an actual possibility that the Tories might lose every single seat in London. Labour has no plans to rejoin the EU.
Based on the huge support Labour enjoys in London, Labour currently has more MPs in London than the SNP has MPs in the whole of Scotland, what can we conclude from this? Absolutely **** all.
Yes Ernie - because what is happening in Scotland gives lie to your whole thesis on this
the experience from Scotland tells us that being pro EU with strong leadership is a vote winner. brexit labour have one seat If your thesis was right that no one wants a pro vbrexit party and everyone is fed up0 of talking about it the SNP would be losing in the polls and labour gaining
Edukator a link would be interesting on that
While we can’t see Ed’s missing numbers yet, I’ll wager they include “retired” nurses that are now in essential roles in the care system. Persuading them back into the NHS isn’t a trivial thing to achieve, and will create holes in services elsewhere, with a knock on effect for the NHS.
Anyway, Labour has announced that they will increase the numbers trained. No one should be under any doubt now about what voting Conservative means for the NHS, and the care system.
Also nurses like me would need a retraining to rejoin the workforce as our registrations lapse. this means you cannot re enter the workforce immediately and its also expensive
Can you all be retrained and reposted by the summer? Or is that fantasy, even if there is enough of you, and enough money is thrown at the task?
Numbers added as requested.
Thanks Ed. From that…
Increasing numbers leaving…
In total, 27,133 people left the NMC Register in the last year.
That's an increase in the number of people leaving over the previous year (23,934) of 13.37%.
Of the total number of people leaving the register, 25,219 were Nurses.
This is an increase of 13% in Nurses leaving the register (22,342 Nurses left the register in 2020-21).
Who’s joining the workforce…?
Almost half of the new nursing staff joining the NMC Register in the year to March 2022 were from overseas.
22,745 people from outside the EU / EEA joined the register (up from 9,152 the previous year).
That's a 149% increase.
Meanwhile, just 663 people from within the EU joined.
Which I think closely follows TJs description of the situation. Someone who “might” follow and understand the situation in the profession more than the rest of us. Wise to listen to him (on this topic anyway).
The SNP have made the EU membership the core of their second referendum, of course they're going to be backing it to the hilt, it's a huge part of their push for that referendum, and the lack of appeal for rejoining the EU by the UK government allows them to have that argument.
What the SNP is less keen to discuss is the actual cost benefit of, or timeline involved in Scotland rejoining the EU if independence occurred, it's all good stating that rejoining the EU would be like the land of milk and honey for Scotland, but that's not very useful if it's not actually backed by some facts.
I just don't buy the SNP good all other politicians bad, they are pretty much mainly career politicians, who have spent their lives in some political arena, why the demarcation line between Scotland and England would provide a basis for good and bad politicians is as much fiction as the stuff that any politician states!
Ta for the links. I very much doubt many of those will come back. childcare, retired ( but not 67) other jobs etc
Can you all be retrained and reposted by the summer? Or is that fantasy, even if there is enough of you, and enough money is thrown at the task?
well I am not coming back. broken mentally and physically by the job. I can no longer do it. I am not alone in this. You could probably get a few thousand back but nothing like the numbers needed.
If every nurse who has left the profession over 6 years and is still in the UK and not retired came back it would just about cover the shortages.
I just don’t buy the SNP good all other politicians bad, they are pretty much mainly career politicians, who have spent their lives in some political arena, why the demarcation line between Scotland and England would provide a basis for good and bad politicians is as much fiction as the stuff that any politician states!
My point is simply that being a pro EU party with a strong commitment to rejoining is a vote winner not a vote loser. Thats what the scottish situation tells us. It totally gives lie to Ernie and Dazh thesis that a rejoin party is a vote loser and no one wants to hear about brexit
It totally gives lie to Ernie and Dazh thesis that a rejoin party is a vote loser
Thanks for the accusation of lying.
However if we are seeking the truth this is what I said:
I am not saying that “being pro EU is such a vote loser”, I am saying that for most people outside Singletrackworld it is an issue of no or very little importance.
I have also said that banging on about Brexit at every conceivable opportunity and blaming it for everything simply alienates people.
You claim this cannot be the case because of the 8% of the UK population which lives in Scotland think it is really important.
You back this claim by pointing out that the SNP does very well in Scotland. Despite the fact that the SNP had less MSPs five years after the EU referendum than it had five years before the EU referendum.
It's almost as if SNP support has very little or nothing to do with Brexit.
Sorry Ernie - not to mean an accusation of lying. apologies
I have also said that banging on about Brexit at every conceivable opportunity and blaming it for everything simply alienates people.
which clearly is not the case given whats happening in Scotland.
Does the SNP really keep on banging on about Brexit at every conceivable opportunity and blaming it for everything? Struth 😳
Edit:
not to mean an accusation of lying. apologies
Nah, I knew what you meant. I was being overdramatic to emphasize the point that you were misrepresenting what I was saying.
🙂
Let's be brutally honest here, no one in England really gives a f*** about Scotland. If they want to leave the UK and join the EU I'm sure most people in England will give them a cheery wave. Personally I think that would be a tragedy and extremely damaging for Scotland for all the reason why brexit was a bad idea. I can completely understand why they would want to though. If joining the EU is as important to Scotland as TJ claims then maybe it's for the best, but I reckon it's not quite as cut and dried as that. The links between Scotland and the rUK are much stronger than people think and the last referendum was a definitive no.
a definitive no
55/45, wasn’t it? And then all the carrots dangled to get that result were withdrawn.
Weird isn’t it… we expect politicians to change their policies as the world changes around them, or indeed for them to be replaced if they fail to deliver, but a population who have voted in a referendum should never speak again… and those that persuade them to vote a certain way are under no obligation to deliver on anything they promise.
55/45 and interestingly because its right and fair ( and unlike the EU ref) EU citizens living here were allowed to vote and mainly voted no after listening to project fear. That might have just tipped it.
My point is simple - that what is happening in Scotland shows your analysis and Starmers to be wrong. Rejoin is a positive vote winner and does not turn folk off if a positive case is made for the EU
Let’s be brutally honest here, no one in England really gives a f*** about Scotland.
Why then do English politicians block a second ref? Is it because they know the economic damage to England from losing scotland would be huge>?
Nah, Labour because they think it would be a mistake for Scotland to go independent and the Tories because they are the Conservative and Unionist Party. Plus there already has been a referendum. The recognised protocol isn't that you keep having referendums until you get the result that you like.
I agree with Daz - I think the average punter in the rest of the UK has grown weary of the issue and frankly probably cares very little.
Personally i care and down south for the last few years, questions about independence are less problematic than Scotland joining the EU though, as independence means a lot of agreements and more than likely shared services, whilst joining the EU would put a physical barrier up, and make Scotland compete in many ways, as well as bringing the same negative issues Brexit has brought us across the UK.
There's a real need for some facts, or at the least probabilities of positives and negatives for both, the SNP for me are using the EU issue as a driver for IndyRef2, that's fine, it's politics, the SNP is all about Independence, so are going to use everything available to fight for it, but they need to really look hard at themselves to make sure they're not doing a re-run of the Brexit campaign, and doing similar selling points as muppets like Farage and Boris did with '£300 million a week wasted' or 'immigrants stealing our benefits'.
Why then do English politicians block a second ref?
Two reasons mainly. First the King and previously the queen would have been very pissed off about it. Second is Faslane. They’re not going to give up their only nuclear weapons base. They also don’t want to split the British Army. The military issues are insanely complicated.
Scottish independence is an awful lot of drift
Military stuff is nonsense. Its pride and the fact that scotland supports the UK economy and without Scotland rUK economy would be a lot worse
anyway - thats far from the point of this thread
and the fact that scotland supports the UK economy
They need us more than than we need them. Now where have we heard that before? 😀
What I am saying is without rejoining the EU its much much harder as we have both hands tied behind our backs.
At last we are getting somewhere. This Starmer geezer who will in all likelihood be the next PM has totally ruled out rejoining the EU, and he doesn't appear to be getting much opposition to that stance from within the Labour Party. Lessons have obviously been learnt from the consequences of calling for a second EU referendum last general election.
So bearing in mind that rejoining will not be an option anytime soon you can rule it out as a solution to the UK's nurse shortage. However much harder it might be a solution which doesn't involve rejoining the EU will have to be found.
What that shows is the stupidity of the labour policy .
I have been consistent with that line. Refusing to even think about rejoining is a vote loser, its self defeating and its stupid. the majority of the population want to rejoin IIRC and that number will only increase.
Again the scots lesson for Starmer. a pro european pro rejoin party is a vote winner. Labour share of the vote is dropping again IIRC in Scotland because at lest in part of supporting brexit
I personally cannot see any solution in the next few years to the lack of staff unless we take developing countries staff.
Refusing to even think about rejoining is a vote loser
It doesn't seem to have a significant affect. First poll of 2023 :
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-2-3-january-2023/
Btw TJ I decided to do a search concerning all these unemployed nurses in Spain who would come to the UK if only it was easier. This is all that I could find:
"Fresh figures from the council also showed Spain needed 95,000 more nursing professionals employed across the country’s hospitals to match the European average.
Spain has 625 nurses per 100,000 inhabitants, while the European average stands at 827, according to the data.
Current nurses are overwhelmed as a result, causing them to march through the streets of Madrid in a series of protests in the past few years. "
So why is Spain currently experiencing a shortage of nurses? Spain is an EU member state, why aren't nurses from other parts of the EU solving Spain's nursing crisis under freedom of movement?
If EU membership solves nursing shortages why has Spain got a nursing shortage?
According to my pal who is a nurse wiorking in Spain that is not so. they still have a surplus of trained nurses. I suspect what that is is they are not employing enough not that they do not train enough. there is a peculiarity in Spanish nurse training in that the trainees can legally do much of a staff nurses job - so its cheaper to train nurses and then not give them jobs but just train another batch.
more nursing professionals employed
is the key word. They have a surplus of unemployed trained nurses. they don't have vacancies, they just don't emply enough of them. Its not unavailablity of nurses, its lack of posts
According to this article Spain has one of the very worse nursing personal to inhabitant ratio in Europe, far worse than the UK :
Your solution? Make it as easy as possible for Spanish nurses to work in the UK.
And yet you don't want to extend that to nurses from, say Ghana, because according to you that would be "unethical".
Let’s be brutally honest here, no one in England really gives a f*** about Scotland.
hmm with half my family Scottish, I do...Personally I care less about your opinions though, to be honest 😉
JeZ
Cue a list of Starmer explainers and apologists, and folk saying the EU is the answer whilst simultaneously supporting the Starmer position.
The man has no excuse against this backdrop to offer better than two flags and a balanced budget.
Lack of new ideas is killing me currently.
There are so many areas you could improve that would rev up your electorate. Just throw a bloody dart.
The capacity of the economy died by handing it to the service sector rather than examining the real needs of society.
(I mean look at the EV infrastructure it's a total mess of not enough charge points and reliability. I got an Ev 5 years ago and it's a shoddy state of affairs. This is gaping hole of transformation that could employ a tonne of people.)
ERnie
Spain has more trained nurses than it has jobs for - the opposite position to the UK where we have more jobs than nurses
What those reports you are quoting are showing is not a shortage of trained nurses but a short fall in the employment of those nurses. The spanish set up trains more nurses than they have jobs for. Maybe they could and should employ more of them. Different question
The spanish set up trains more nurses than they have jobs for.
And yet Spain has a far less ratio of nursing professionals than the UK.
Which suggests that training nurses is cheaper than employing fully trained nurses. It is clear that Spain has a severe shortage of nurses, the nurse's professional organisation makes that point.
So if training nurses is not a huge financial burden for Spain why isn't the same for the UK.
Btw I haven't seen any evidence of these unemployed Spanish nurses that you speak of, can you provide any? Apart from what your mate says.
You directly compare Spanish nurses vs UK as the workload differs.
Going from conversations with my sister, who lives there, IIRC, a lot of tasks that UK nursing staff carry out, the family are expected to do in Spain. My Sis' father in law is currently in hospital so her husband & his siblings are doing shifts to be with & help care for him.
They also have a 2 tier system- a basic level of care that is paid by your std tax and you can contribute a bit more if you want higher care. Don't think its via insurance co's but by opt in tax, like NI AVCs here
So if training nurses is not a huge financial burden for Spain why isn’t the same for the UK.
Because spanish traineee nurses can do much of the work of staff nurses and are low paid. ( unlike the UK where trainees are students and cannot do the work of staff nurses)so its cheaper for spanish health service to continually train new staff and run on trainees than it is to employ fully trained nurses
Its not that spain is short of fully trained nurses - it has a excess. It has ( according to that stuff you posted) a shortfall in the number of posts for the nurses. Its precisely the opposite situation to the UK
google nurse unemplyment
its not just one pal BTW =- I know a number of spanish, catalan and basque nurses. all came to the UK to work for the same reasons. No jobs for the qualified nurses in spain but plenty here
More career progression in the UK as well, we have senior nurses taking on responsibilities that doctors have in other countries. Look at the healthcare workforce as a whole… Spain have more doctors than we do (by population).
Cue a list of Starmer explainers and apologists, and folk saying the EU is the answer whilst simultaneously supporting the Starmer position.
The man has no excuse against this backdrop to offer better than two flags and a balanced budget.
I think most people are arguing that his stance on the EU is wrong, its only the die hard lexiters & faragites arguing against it!- personally I think itll be another few years b4 labour can openly support rejoining
the plan to renationalise rail franchises is a good one and Id definitely want to see it rolled out to other utilities
As for 'balancing the books' theres a lot of leeway in Reeves plan, only borrowing to invest, gives them the ability to borrow as much as they want as long as they label the destination investment (pretty much all government spending is just that) and she still says that 'exceptional circumstances' allow them to do that
(I mean look at the EV infrastructure it’s a total mess of not enough charge points and reliability. I got an Ev 5 years ago and it’s a shoddy state of affairs. This is gaping hole of transformation that could employ a tonne of people.)
like this?
https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/labour-party-ev-jobs-proposal/
I think most people are arguing that his stance on the EU is wrong
No it's only TJ and yourself arguing that. Most other people - and almost everyone outside this forum and the FBPE twitter threads - think he's doing exactly the right thing, and that is confirmed in the polls.
its only the die hard lexiters & faragites arguing against it!
Yawn. Yes of course, anyone who wants to move on from the past is a die hard lexiteer or faragist. 🙄 I'll repeat again, I would vote remain again today and would vote to rejoin tomorrow given the chance. But I'm not going to spend any time worrying or getting annoyed about something that will probably never happen in my lifetime. There are more important and immediate things to be concerned about.
Most other people – and almost everyone outside this forum and the FBPE twitter threads
Not in Scotland nor amongst the folk I know all of whom are lefties. all think Starmer is wrong on constitution and the EU.
One of the consequences for Starmer in this is he has basically given up on the 50 scottish seats ( is that tactical knowing the SNP are highly unlikely to vote down a labour government?)
20 odd years ago labour had 50 scottish seats. Now it has one.
Yes of course, anyone who wants to move on from the past is a die hard lexiteer or faragist.
Well what is the explanation for refusing to even consider the single most bemeficial policy he could take - one that would win labour many seats? the SNP in Scotland are ripe for losing seats but labour refuses to give scottish votors a reason to vote labour. Its not an unpopular policy - the majority think it right to rejoin
One of the consequences for Starmer in this is he has basically given up on the 50 scottish seats
Latest polls suggest a ~200 overall majority for Labour. They don't need any Scottish seats.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1608798581615648770?s=20&t=pOpLX8K1BswGFDLzfqAfog
"A Keir Starmer government might be more radical than you think"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/04/keir-starmer-government-labour-leader
the plan to renationalise rail franchises is a good one and Id definitely want to see it rolled out to other utilities
Contrary to popular belief, and reports in the useless Media, the Rail Franchises are all now Government owned. Most have been since 2020. The incumbent Companies were kept on (mostly) in place to run the managing of the services when they lost, or gave up, their franchise, the Government pay them a set fee to do this, they have no extra fee from the ticket sales or extra profits made on the service. The Dept. for Transport run the railways, and do it pretty badly. The current rail strikes would not be going on now if the Individual Franchises were still here, they would all negotiate with their Staff, and a compromise woudl be met. The DfT couldnt run a tap properly, never mind a very complex railway.
This is the same DfT who ordered electric trains with a diesel back up engine for the longest eectric line in the Country, that had previously run with a dedicated fleet of electric trains for the last 25 years. The extra weight of the diesel engines added a 10% power cost when being used, added complexity, and cost while servicing/running and the lease cost was 3 times the cost of the old Stock, when it was expected to be less than double.And we’re stuck with them for 25 years.
Agreed about other utilities, though I cannot see how that could be done, as i cannot see anyone in Labour or Cons. who have the willpower, and intellect to make.a scheme like that work.
What also annoys me about this current useless Governemt is their lack of action on power. Thye’ve said there will be new nuclear, mayeb 15 years, nothing in the meantime. There needs to be a much better plan to make the UK self sufficient.
I don't understand why the scum don't call an election right now .
All their shit would become labour's shit
and come the next election walk right back in.
Labour need to keep Scotland sweet as they will need all the votes they can at the later elections.
Labour need to keep Scotland sweet as they will need all the votes they can at the later elections.
maybe tell them that? At the moment labour policy seems to be designed to annoy the scots electorate independence minded or not
Labour need to keep Scotland sweet as they will need all the votes they can at the later elections.
I'm guessing labour's strategy in Scotland is get in power first, then deliver some stuff to Scotland in the form of more money and devolution, then make the case that Scotland doesn't need independence and/or EU membership and instead all it needs is a labour govt to look after its interests. TJ says Scots want to be in the EU above all else, I think under a transformational labour govt that would be much less true.
dazh - they tried that once and reneged. fool me once shame on you. fool me twice shame on me
Labour have made it clear over a number of years that their policy towards Scotland is " know your place and do as you are told"
Nothing a labour government can do will stop the desire for the EU or independence except marginally. You have to remember that labours behaviour in Scotland over the last 20 years has been horrendous even to creating pacts with the tories to keep the SNP out and the broken promises are long remembered
Labour and tory are now seen as "two cheeks of the same arse"
There is a danger of blaming Labour for the lack of progress on further devolution while they haven’t been in office. But it’s true, people in Scotland were promised that a NO vote would result in a very different relationship and status for Scotland within the UK and Europe more widely than what they have been allowed to have by the UK government since.
Plus the nonsense from Nandy. Plus the refusal of Labour to speak to the SNP. Plus the labour / tory anti SNP pact that saved May and led to brexit, Plus the refusal to even talk about getting vcloser to the EU etc etc
Nandys quotes were utterly awful Basically threatening extra judicial imprisonment for any scots politician who supported an unofficial referendum and a police crackdown on any pro independence demos
Plus the nonsense from Nandy.
As if anyone gives two shits about something Lisa Nandy has said! Don't get me wrong, Labour have a lot of work to do in Scotland to regain trust and it will take time. Thankfully due to their current poll standing in England and the likelihood of a massive majority that's exactly what they will have. If labour needed SNP support or scottish seats to get rid of the tories you might have a point, but they don't. Labour's poll lead puts the SNP in a very difficult and weak position, so I can see why you dislike them so much.
Labour are ****ed in Scotland, especially with Starmer for a leader as he’s been very vocal in calling out any possibility of independence. That’s it keir, keep telling us what we can’t have.
Labour’s poll lead puts the SNP in a very difficult and weak position, so I can see why you dislike them so much.
Weird answer. I don't vote SNP and never have. I was a lifelong labour voter until they behaved so badly in Scotland and acted so strongly against the interests of the country with their only policy being the bain principle - SNP baaaaaaaaaaad.And then allied ythemselves with the tories.
SNP look likely to take almost all if not all Scottish seats so will be in a very strong position
Nandys speech was widely reported as was her attempt to row back which was " what I meant was we need to show the scots electorate that by following social democratic policies we can improve the lot of scotland" which is equal nonsense seeing as the SNP are to the left of labour
Nandy was ( still is?} on the front bench but you say no one listens to her. Weird.
Starmer for a leader as he’s been very vocal in calling out any possibility of independence.
For several extremely good reasons. First Labour are an establishment party, and the establishment doesn't want to see Scotland go for obvious reasons. Much as I'd like them to be less wedded to the establishment, we all saw what happens when they threaten the status quo.
Second they are a democratic party, and there was a referendum on Scottish independence very recently with a definitive result. For the same reasons as they have to respect the brexit vote, they have to abide by the Scottish vote, and we all saw what happened when they didn't do that in 2019.
Thirdly because they have rightly concluded that it would be very bad for Scotland. Labour do not have much support in Scotland right now but they haven't given up on it and they don't want to see it damaged if it left the UK.
And then allied ythemselves with the tories.
Which is extremely ironic as there's nothing Sturgeon would like more than the tories winning the next election. That's reason enough to treat the SNP with suspicion.
Really Dazh? Really?There is so much that is wrong with that post its hard to know where to start
but they haven’t given up on it
Actually they have. there are multiple straightforward ways to improve labours standing in Scotland but they will not take it. they have given up completely on Scotland and are irrelevant now here
As for the idea Sturgeon would prefer a Tory government - nonsense
Perhaps you could have a look at scottish politics and gain some understanding before you make such definitive pronouncements which are so divorced from reality
Piece in the gruaniad today where Starmer is stating more privatisation.
Starmer will also risk the anger of some of his MPs by speaking warmly about the idea of public-private partnerships, promising “a new approach to the power of government [that is] more relaxed about bringing in the expertise of public and private, business and union, town and city”.
Starmer apparently not getting his big cheque book out. Dope. Just the right signal to send out that in a time of disintegrating state services. (Apparently there will be capacity for private-public ventures though.)
The idiocy and incompetence, and lack of benevolence in these leaders is beyond belief.
A crippled nation and basically no one wants to fix anything - but the BoE is happily passing income over to asset owners.
It's startling to me that both Sunak and Starmer believe that things will get better without out actually fixing anything.
Why is the solution to a failed free-market economy - more hands-off right wing thinking?
Piece in the gruaniad today where Starmer is stating more privatisation.
Banging head against wall material.
I love how he both is not getting his big cheque book out expecting the private sector to somehow magically have the funds to function, but not the state.
Bone-headed.
This is the logic of Streeting too.
If I'm voting for a government to replace the Tories' lack of investment I certainly want them to open up the big cheque book, and I want them to tell the truth.
Point of order: it's not even a metaphorical cheque book - the BoE just marks up accounts to spend. Every time.
Reeves just popped up to talk garbage about Labour"s fully costed spending plans citing Corbyn's plans as un-costed. (They technically were costed even if that's not how it works - in double entry accounting terms.)
These people are so blatantly talking nonsense.
She also has no plans for wealth tax. So letting people with wealth keep all the wealth?
And at the same getting the economy growing again. All counter-intuitive talk that doesn't stand scrutiny.
Labour simply can't hold the position that they are going to fix things solely whilst a)relying on real terms contracting private sector growth b)fully costed spending bullshit via abolishing non-dom status.
I'll wait and see the full speech, but from what's being reported this morning I'm not seeing Labour offering what the country needs.
Which is a disappointment, and a lost opportunity.
Still, anyone but Tory, let's not let perfect get in the way of "less shit" 🙄
Actually they have. there are multiple straightforward ways to improve labours standing in Scotland but they will not take it. they have given up completely on Scotland and are irrelevant now here
Like it or not elections that aren't fought over a single issue are generally* won in the centerground. The SNP wins in Scotland because they have both the pro independence vote and the left.
Labor isn't pro independence, none of the big 3 parties are, so I don't know why you keep banging on about it. Parties aren't individually democratic, they put forward their opinion/beliefs/manifesto, and people vote on it. A hegemony of independence parties would be just as bad. That said they obviously moderate their positions to reflect voters in order to win elections and do some good, even if they can't do it all.
Which leaves their left/right balance, trying to out-lefty the SNP to win a handful of Scottish seats isn't going to work politically as it would just alienate the centrists that are currently giving them the projected 200+ seat majority.
If you really wanted to see a truly democratic independence movement there needs to be a Scottish Independence party on the right, then you could actually judge the left/right vote split as well as the leave/remain.
*there's exceptions but they're exceptions.
"Tonight Matthew, I'm going to be a Tory scumbag."
Labour in Scotland could recover ( especially given the SP are vulnerable politically) but it needs a major change of stance. Not to pro independence but to a positive vision for Scotland. Divorce the scots party from the English one and allow them to create policy that actually works for Scotland and stop just automatically opposing the SNP and stop the alliance with the tories
produce a positive and workable proposal on constitutional affairs.
When Sarwar first came in he made good noises on this but clearly was slapped down by starmer and had to shut up and toe the line
Now we are back to the only scottish labour policy is SNP baaaaaaad and working with the tories to block the SNP on councils is abhorrent
You need to note I am not an SNP voter. I was a lifelong labour voter until labour in Scotland allied itself with the tories and set up a pact with them. labour working with the tories to oppose another social democratic party is wrong and in doing so they have squandered any chance of holding the SNP to account as they are now seen as "two cheeks of the same arse"
SNP are politically vulnerable and a decent organised independent from westminster scottish labour could easily take many seats off them with the right policies - which does not have to include independence.
fully costed spending plans citing Corbyn’s plans as un-costed
Both the last election manifestos were costed. In 2019 though, a series of extra policies were thrown in without timelines or costs explained. That will not be happening at the next election... voters do not share your enthusiasm for declarations of just spending money and worrying about it later (even though that's exactly what every government does).
But the answer to 12 years of crippling austerity is not more austerity.
That might work for them in Holyrood, but then how would that work in Westminster, those Scottish Labor MP's couldn't vote through a Kings Speech based on the manifesto their English, Welsh and Irish counterparts were elected on.
Then you've just got coalition government and 5 years of the SNP attacking them for being the incumbent Labour leaders lap dogs (much like the electorate turned on Nick and the Lib Dems).