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he pretends to certain demographics that their choice in 2016 was not colossally stupid.
It was stupid, obv, but I can't see any politician ever calling the folks they want to vote for them stupid. And in this case it would just make them dig in harder.
I hope you're in a Tory/lib marginal.
And in this case it would just make them dig in harder.
Why in this particular case? And at what point do you finally confront them with it?
I hope you’re in a Tory/lib marginal.
Nope.
It would be a shame if you did rule out voting for Labour in a Tory/Labour marginal… I think that would be counter productive to your aims… but you only get one vote… it’s not like this forum where you can have your say many times, over and over, under many different names.
Nope.
Then you’re exactly the same as the people who voted for brexit thinking it would make them better off. A turkey voting for xmas.
Gobble gobble.
Just to provide a reality check this is an opinion poll carried out at the weekend:
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-4-december-2022/
Like all the opinion polls of the last couple of months or so it shows an easy general election victory for Labour with a 15+30% lead over the Tories, and the LibDems struggling to manage to get the 12% share of the vote they received last general election.
In fact at least 95% of opinion polls show the LibDems unable to reach 12%.
It is now all but a forgone conclusion that Labour will win the next general election, the only question is how huge
will their majority be.
The only way I can possibly see Labour screwing up now is if they do something incredibly daft and adopt LibDem EU policy.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/liberal-democrat-rejoining-eu-policy/
Which we all know was a vote loser that cost the LibDems a lot of support at the last general election, and appears not to make the LibDems any more popular now.
Well, if it is in the bag, then no one needs to worry about my vote.
I don't need to worry about vote as the tory ****er mp will get 60% just as he has for the last 25 years. He even managed it in 1997.
Well, if it is in the bag, then no one needs to worry about my vote.
Yup, nothing the Tories are doing or have done in recent months, including changing their leader twice, appears to be having any effect on the likely outcome of the next general election.
All opinion polls are consistently, without exception, showing huge Labour leads far beyond any recognised margin of error.
Although I don't do crystal ball gazing predictions I expect that if there was a general election now the Labour lead would narrow down to something like 45% Labour to 30% Tory, which would give Starmer a huge majority.
So now is a great time to be self-indulgent with your voting ...... LibDem, Official Monster Raving Loony Party, whatever.
Well, if it is in the bag, then no one needs to worry about my vote.
Every vote is needed to get rid of the tories. If you live in a tory/labour seat then any vote other than labour helps the tories and makes your wish for a less damaging brexit and greater alignment with Europe less likely. You know that though don't you? And still you don't care about your own interests and more importantly the interests of millions who are suffering at the hands of the tories. Selfishness on another level, have a word with yourself.
So now is a great time to be self-indulgent with your voting …… LibDem, Official Monster Raving Loony Party, whatever.
Every vote is needed to get rid of the tories.
????
Yeah Daz has a different view to me, in his overdramatic world every vote counts. IMO once you hit the threshold further votes become essentially irrevalant.
Although having said that I would love to see Labour with a 300 seat majority rather than a perfectly adequate 30 seat majority, it would make the PLP incredibly difficult for Starmer to control.
in his overdramatic world every vote counts.
Ernie you're funny. It's not really about votes counting, more the liberal virtue signalling about the EU that annoys me. I don't particularly want to vote labour at the moment either as Starmer's policies are far to the right and lacking in the radicalism of what I would like. But I will for no other reason than there are people in our society who desperately need a different govt. It's easy for me though cos I live in a tory-lib ultra marginal. Not much point worrying about it if you live in a safe labour seat.
Well I guess that this:
Helps to explain this :
And still no one has been expelled from the Labour Party for being responsible for condemning human beings to live in conditions that it is probably illegal to keep pigs in.
The former Labour leader and the finance head were "suspended" from the Labour Party nearly two years ago but their expulsion have still not been announced.
Lucky for them they are both right-wingers so can expect a sympathetic ear from Starmer's Labour Party.
In contrast left-wingers face fast track expulsion from the Labour Party in Croydon, especially if they are discovered to have criticized Israel a few years ago on social media.
Criticizing Israel's treatment of Palestinians under occupation, despite the fact that the United Nations regularly does it, is considered more serious in Starmer's Labour Party than condemning council tennants to live in subhuman conditions unmatched in any Tory council.
https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1600600873566359553
This is so desperately pathetic, and ill-informed. You 'Streeting' afford nothing. The government however can afford whatever is available and NEEDED.
The Labour front bench specialises in giving me no reasons to vote for them. Especially Streeting.
Country is desperate for a positive direction - you're not getting it with Labour. Starmer or Streeting apologists please don't jump on the end of this and tell me how this is a good thing.
Full circle again for me - this is the most viciously ignorant Labour sqaud in years. Not a chance currently I will be voting for this line up.
Time and time again we've discussed how government's (with control of their own finances, own central banks etc) don't run out of cash (an impossiblity) and how it works against Labour's raison d'etre.
There really is no hope.
this is the most viciously ignorant Labour sqaud in years
Maybe a bit purposefully ignorant as that is what the voters want (see last 3 elections)
Maybe a bit purposefully ignorant as that is what the voters want (see last 3 elections)
I think voters want better - they just have had the debate so messed up no one knows what actually could be done with a party that has the tools and the drive.
Can you understand a how voter can only want an alternative if it's actually sold as an alternative?
There's always a third way. The whole debate we have is built around polarisation. Messed up neolibralism or slightly tweaked neolibralism. The alternative to both doesn't have to be Communism either.
There is definitely a better option - clearly. Not my fault no one wants to fight for it.
Spineless - the lot of them.
Is it unreasonable with Labour's massive advantage currently to stop talking like a Tory legal team?
Why is it so hard to say the very rich have had it too good for too long at the expense of everyone else - here's how we should fix that. And we don't need their cash to fix it. We can pay those good state wages, we can have a functioning state, health service and police force. We have the power to make it happen. We can rebuild high-streets and infrastructure. We have the capacity. Bottom up.
Why is that a vote loser?
You are being way too pessimistic IMO rone.
The Labour right-wing feel that all they need to offer the country is the same policies but under a new management. At the moment that strategy is working fine because they have successfully focused on the management as being the problem, not policies.
However once in government, which Labour are all but certain to be within the next two years, it will be a whole new ball game.
For a start the reasonability of government will then fall on Labour. You have no faith in neoliberal policies delivering on the British people's needs, which if that is the case the next Labour government will find itself in a crises very quickly indeed.
Keir Starmer I have absolutely no doubt will prove to be a hopelessly inadequate Prime Minister. He is clearly a totally crap leader of the Opposition who has had the extreme good fortune of watching the Tories eat each other, and they preform own goals after own goals, as they simultaneously try to implement failed policies.
As PM Starmer will need to be decisive and give a clear response to every new development, he won't be able to leave that sort of thing to Angela Rayner, or other Front Benchers as he currently does. I can't envisage any situation where he would last a whole term, I would expect him to last no more than a few months.
Hopefully Labour will have a huge parliamentary majority, possibly two hundred or more. As the crisis of government unfolds I would expect party discipline to collapse and factions within the PLP to form.
If a right-wing Labour government fails to deliver on the aspirations of ordinary working people I would expect the trade unions to pull the rug from under them - I really think they are drinking at last chance saloon in that respect, a fact which many right-wingers are no doubt aware of.
The Tories are likely to be an extremely weak and utterly discredited force after the next general election, with possibly their worse result in 200 years so of much less relevance, the threat for the Labour right-wing is more likely to be from the left - of the Labour Party, SNP, PC, etc.
IMO the most important aspect of the volatile political crisis yet to come will be to have a massive Labour majority. If a Labour government fails to respond in the interests of ordinary working people it will leave both the Tories and Labour utterly discredited.
The obvious area of concern would be the rise of the far-right, but thankfully in that respect there is very little evidence of the possibility of that compared to other European countries. The anti-establishment movement is more likely to come from the left. Especially if the trade unions get involved.
the same policies but under a new management
Utter bollocks. I read no further, sorry. The pub beckons…
Well I didn't write it expecting you to agree, but thanks for the confirmation anyway.
And yes, you definitely did the right thing not reading it any further - loads more stuff that you wouldn't have agreed with.
Best strategy is probably not to read anything I post?💡
The pub beckons…
I'm down your local tonight Kelvin if you're around. 🙂
but thankfully in that respect there is very little evidence of the possibility of that compared to other European countries.
Not like we don't have any popular characters on the far right who have proven they can massively influence politics beyond their non-existent parliamentary representation. Oh..
The anti-establishment movement is more likely to come from the left. Especially if the trade unions get involved.
Recent history would appear to also discredit this statement. Much as I was excited by the Corbyn project and disappointed at its ultimate failure, it came about as a result of some very specific and unusual circumstances which I doubt will ever be repeated. Apart from the tiny RMT, I see little evidence of any real anti-establishment leadership in the union movement. Most of the union bosses have far too much to lose to risk rocking the boat too much.
It's interesting though that you appear to want labour to win and then fail. I fully expect to be disappointed, but I don't want to be. The only winners from a Starmer failure will be the tories.
Best strategy is probably not to read anything I post?
I can recommend that strategy.
Why is that a vote loser?
Because they won't believe it. Even the mild stuff Corbyn was offering was not believed and questioned on how anyone could possibly do it. The electorate are brain washed idiots remember.
It’s interesting though that you appear to want labour to win and then fail.
Actually my comment was specifically aimed at rone, plenty of clues such as "You are being way too pessimistic IMO rone" and "You have no faith in neoliberal policies delivering on the British people’s needs". I was responding to specific points rone made.
But anyway it has nothing to do with me "wanting" anything. My comment was with regards of the reality of the situation, not that I "want" Labour to win and then fail.
The reality is that Labour will almost certainly win the next general election with, in all likelihood, a huge majority, whatever I want.
Also very likely is that the next Labour government will pursue economic policies not significantly different to Tory economic policies, fiscal prudence etc., whatever I might want.
Like rone I don't believe that it will solve the issues confronting ordinary working people - cost of living crises etc. I believe that it will fail.
What I "want" is a Labour government elected which shifts economic power in favour of ordinary working people. Whilst I am not as pessimistic as rone appears to be I am sufficiently enough of a realist to accept that that will not be an easy struggle.
The obvious area of concern would be the rise of the far-right, but thankfully in that respect there is very little evidence of the possibility of that compared to other European countries.
Ernie slags of Europe again. On any reasonable measure which European country has the furthest right government at present, in power rather than just a minority part of the political landscape? Prove to me it's not the UK.
Good points, Rone, and it shouldn't be a vote loser. Corbyn forgot those points and went on 1974 style comrade rants, Blair forgot them when in power and now Starmer is one of the rich with a fancy lifestyle who backs away from socialist pledges as fast as they're written.
An Arsenal season ticket doesn't make him a man of the people, and frankly, Arsenal: Stan Kroenke the owner gave 10 times as much to Trumps campaign as Clintons in 2016 and so popular with fans they protested and demand he sell the club after the European super league affair. Anyone with morals wouldn't contribute to the 70 million profits or even walk into Emirates Stadium.
The electorate are brain washed idiots remember.
It is always good to see that people who are so quick to dish out personal insults also have a general contemptuous attitude towards the whole population, and a misplaced sense of their own personal superiority.
The electorate are brain washed idiots remember.
It is always good to see that people who are so quick to dish out personal insults also have a general contemptuous attitude towards the whole population, and a misplaced sense of their own personal superiority.
Posted 11 minutes ago
Ernie makes a personal attack on someone for dishing out persona insults (that aren't even personal because talking aboout the whole electorate isn't personal). Where's one of those irony meter pics?
These threads eh!
These threads eh!
Yeah there's this geezer in France who reckons that he "despises" the leader of the British Labour Party, claims that the French far-right leader is "goody two shoes" in comparison, and then claims that the UK has the most right-wing government in Europe.
These political threads eh?
So much respect for people with differing opinions.
My reference to personal insults wasn't what you appear to think it was btw Ed.
Go on then Ernie, prove me wrong. Which EU country is further to the right than the UK?
From the top of my head:
Italy, Hungary, France.
OK, nerd, find me expulsions equivalent to Windrush in those countries with people expelled after 50 odd years of legal residency.
All three are still in the EU and haven't had a racisism led exit.
At least two are more welcoming to refugees in terms of per capita entries
Check which country has the longest hsopital waiting lists as that's a good measure of how leftward leaning a country is.
Which country deals most with money laundring and tax havens.
Which is the least democratic with a monarchy
Prove me wrong rather than just show your prejudices. Objective criteria. How about: " exclusive nationalist essentialism/exceptionalisxm, counter-Enlightenment dogmatism and political authoritarianism".
UKIP and Brexit and UK immigration policy dwarf any other European movement - 52% voted for it. More anti-woke than th eUK in Europe, Hungary was a good try but France and Italy? Objectively no.
It is always good to see that people who are so quick to dish out personal insults also have a general contemptuous attitude towards the whole population, and a misplaced sense of their own personal superiority.
Indeed.
My irony meter needs recalibrating, the scale is too short.
Are you having trouble reading it?
Je le savais.
Acuse people of " a general contemptuous attitude towards the whole population, and a misplaced sense of their own personal superiority."
and it might remind them of things:
" How did the schools teach us this sense of superiority? The language was always chipping away – in the documentary Public School the boys casually refer to “the lower orders”, as if to a species difference, reptiles considering insects. In our isolation we learned that we were special. Everyone else was less special and often stupid – school was where we went, aged eight, to learn to despise other people."
Anything to say about Starmer, mefty? Or just here to lord it over us.
Or just here to lord it over us.
Just here to pop the balloon of your pomposity.
EDIT: Is Public School the documentary they made about Radley?
All three are still in the EU and haven’t had a racisism led exit.
You think the only measure of a state's inherent racism is whether they're a member of the EU? Ed you really are deluded. The EU is as much of a racist entity as almost all other western ex-colonial nation states. The EU, UK, US, Australia etc have almost identical policies towards immigrants, military operations, international trade, aid and development. Racism is in their DNA.
It is always good to see that people who are so quick to dish out personal insults also have a general contemptuous attitude towards the whole population, and a misplaced sense of their own personal superiority.
The population that has voted in the most corrupt tory party for the last 12 years and until recently probably would have continued to do so until they self imploded.
The population that also voted for Brexit
So yes I call them brainwashed idiots and yes I am happy to feel superior but we all get the same vote don't we so just something I have to live with.
So yes I call them brainwashed idiots and yes I am happy to feel superior but we all get the same vote don’t we so just something I have to live with.
You're no better, none of us are. If you are so superior to the so-called brainwashed idiots who vote the wrong way what are you doing to change it? Presumably you have some superior masterplan which goes beyond putting a single cross in a box once every few years like everyone else? Ultimately your vote and opinion counts no more or less than anyone else's, so if everyone else is a brainwashed idiot, then so are you.
I am happy to feel superior but we all get the same vote don’t we so just something I have to live with.
It must be really tough for you.
Although if feeling superior makes you happy then I guess it's not all doom and gloom.
Didn't say it was tough, just the way things are. If you seriously don't feel you are superior to lets say a racist tory voter then not sure what I can say to you.
What's my masterplan, start a revolution of course. Just about to kick one off next week as it happens.
What’s my masterplan, start a revolution of course. Just about to kick one off next week as it happens.
I'm busy til Christmas ,can you wait a couple of weeks?
If you seriously don’t feel you are superior to lets say a racist tory voter then not sure what I can say to you.
And yet all these superior people always find themselves on the losing side! 🤷♂️
Sorry to miss you Dazh, was in Sheffield for work xmas do. See you another time.
Not missed anything of substance in this thread though, have I.
Not missed anything of substance in this thread though, have I.
Conversation in the pub was of a much higher standard obvs. 🙂
If you seriously don’t feel you are superior to lets say a racist tory voter
Of course I don't feel personally superior to a racist Tory voter. I might feel that I am right and they are wrong but I don't go down the road of feeling that I am somehow a superior human being.
I am fully aware that we are all to a great extent a product of our upbringing and our environment. So if anything I would describe it as feeling lucky rather than feeling superior.
What I am prepared to do is challenge, which presumably you don't believe is worth doing as according to you "the electorate are brain washed idiots", and it is just something that you have to live with.
I strongly believe that you can change people's attitudes. Although obviously not if you dismiss them as brain washed idiots.
Btw you don't appear to be following your own recommendation of not reading my posts kerley......too hard to resist?
Come on pass the cringe pipes.
https://twitter.com/Streettough/status/1601776715730063362?t=Abctr4c9Wm0LrMUrjxsoTQ&s=19
The breeding ground for the Labour right is digging up old favourites.
Hoping the public get fed up and join in the race to the bottom.
I thought Austin had cleared off for good.
Well, he’s not a Labour peer, or a Labour Party member. Boris Johnson put him in the House of Lords.
I thought Austin had cleared off for good.
Why would he do that? Austin was committed to damaging Labour's chances before the last general election, publicly attacking the Labour Leader, heckling him from the floor of the House of Commons, and urging people to vote for Boris Johnson and the Tories, there is no reason why he shouldn't carry on doing the Tory Party's work.
Ian Austin writes comment pieces for the Sun, the Daily Telegraph, and the Daily Mail, all three of those Labour Party-hating newspapers are urging Starmer to get even tougher on the left of the Labour Party, and carry out even more expulsions, why would you expect Austin to argue any different?
Although the man who urged voters to vote Tory last election laughably calls himself an "independent" he should be viewed in the same light as any other right-wing Tory.
Back in the days when the UK was still in the EU, and he was still masquerading as a Labour politician, Austin was attacking a Tory government from the floor of the House of Commons for letting too many foreigners into the UK. It took a Tory MP more on the left of the party and Johnson supporter to point out the need to allow immigrants into the UK :
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/home-secretary-told-act-now-12279346
Bearing in mind that Austin had only 6 months earlier backed and voted for the UK to remain in the EU, and therefore freedom of movement, you have to assume that his problem was that he didn't like the Tories letting in foreigers from the wrong part of the world, ie, not Europe.
Ian Austin is a right-wing, self-serving, expenses-milking, racist, who supports unlimited immigration into Israel so that they can illegal take land from the Palestinian people.
The only surprising thing about Austin as far as I am concerned is that he left the Labour Party on his own accord and wasn't expelled.
And that fact is a reflection of just how inept and spinless Corbyn was. Currently left-wingers are being expelled from the Labour Party on spurious allegations such as several years previously liking a tweet from a Green or LiDem party member.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190613-mp-ian-austin-hosts-israel-army-reservists-in-parliament/
Whilst that slimey shit Streeting is coming out against the health service unions, even the FT backs them:
https://www.ft.com/content/ca81509b-e929-487f-8975-49d75dc4f78d
I used to ride with Ian Austin, utter bellend on a personal level too.
Why would he do that? Austin was committed to damaging Labour’s chances before the last general election, publicly attacking the Labour Leader
I know, first hand, got on of his despicable letters urging us not to vote Labour - but I thought his mission was complete now?
that slimey shit Streeting
A step forward from veiled "pet shop boy" references I guess.
is coming out
Oh dear
against the health service unions
Which unions? (Can't be arsed with paywalls.)
You mean the BMA in ref to service improvement?
but I thought his mission was complete now?
Hardly. It now looks even more likely that Labour will win a general election in 2 years time. And whilst Starmer has done a fantastic job expelling left-wingers from the party for the vaguest excuses it clearly isn't enough for Austin.
Like the newspapers that he writes for, the Daily Telegraph, the Sun, and the Daily Mail, who definitely want the Tories to win, Austin probably thinks that Starmer should accelerate the process and expell anyone for simply being left-wing, without even bothering with having the pretense of an excuse like this one:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-party-expelled-caroline-lucas-tweet-b2230584.html?amp
In contrast to how right-wingers like himself in the Labour Party who were deliberately doing whatever they could to undermine Labour's election chances, were treated when spineless Corbyn was leader:
A Labour spokesperson said: “The Labour party takes all allegations of abusive behaviour extremely seriously. These are fully investigated in line with party rules and procedures.”
Yeah right, heckling the leader of the party from the floor of the House of Commons, or publicly calling him a ****ing racist, isn't abusive behaviour. But liking a tweet by Caroline Lucas is.
What a disgrace.
is coming out
Oh dear
'Oh dear' indeed.
You really are desperately trying to push your line that criticism of Wes Streeting is motivated by homophobia.
I am not sure if you consider the Guardian and the BMA to be part of a homophobic conspiracy but they seem agree with BillMC's criticism of Streeting:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/11/wes-streeting-labour-bma-nhs-plans-gps
It wasn’t so long ago that Mr Streeting and the Labour Party were clapping healthcare workers for their contributions during the pandemic, so to hear them now accusing staff of a ‘something for nothing’ culture and potentially supporting further real-terms pay cuts will leave many staff extremely concerned.”
You really are desperately trying to push your line that criticism of Wes Streeting is motivated by homophobia
I was finding humour. Maybe I should use more smileys? I'm a smiley kind of guy.*
*Maybe not.
I am not sure if you consider the Guardian and the BMA to be part of a homophobic conspiracy
I don't.
but they seem agree with BillMC’s criticism of Streeting:
Inaccurate. That's actually a news report that the BMA don't agree with Streeting, not the guardian's "opinion" on streeting.
The BMA are very much a union which acts on behalf of its members, and probably worthy of it's own thread. On which I would don my asbestos underpants before posting as its members interests are not always aligned with those of the rest of us.
Streeting is a "tory" in the wrong party and a willing to take a bribe to bat for his masters which are private health companies. According to him the answer is privitisation. An utter fink
Inaccurate. That’s actually a news report that the BMA don’t agree with Streeting, not the guardian’s “opinion” on streeting.
No one has mentioned "opinion".
BillMC claimed: "Streeting is coming out against the health service unions"
The very first sentence of the Guardian article claims: "Wes Streeting has again criticised the British Medical Association (BMA) in a war of words with the doctors’ union"
I see those two comments as pretty much the same.
No one has mentioned “opinion”.
you said the guardian 'agreed' with BillMC's pithily expressed views about what streeting said about "the health service unions". The Guardian was not "agreeing with a view" it was reporting what the BMA were saying about Streeting. And it's not health service unions plural, it's BMA who are a very particular case. So what you said was inaccurate.
And to TJA you think Streeting's a tory and can keep repeating this. I don't, but probably lack your stamina, so ducking out again.
Streeting says the issues with the NHS can be solved by chucking money at the private sector. He takes bribes from private health companies. He is no socialist
The Guardian was not “agreeing with a view”
The Guardian is very clearly agreeing with BillMC's claim that Wes Streeting has been criticising the BMA. As is very clearly illustrated in the first few words of the Guardian's article:
"Wes Streeting has again criticised the British Medical Association (BMA) in a war of words with the doctors’ union"
How is that any different to what Bill has said?
I have to say John if the best you can come up with in your desperate attempt to defend Wes Streeting is to argue semantics, after a failed attempt to call out homophobia - apparently it was just a joke, then that really speaks volumes.
Why don't you just make the case that Streeting is right to attack healthcare professionals working in the NHS. Can't make it?
How is that any different to what Bill has said?
It's different because they're reporting what the BMA say about Streeting, not expressing any view of their own on the correctness of this. It's also quite different to your saying I think the guardian is part of a homophobic conspiracy.
I have to say John if the best you can come up with in your desperate attempt to defend Wes Streeting is to argue semantics, after a failed attempt to call out homophobia – apparently it was just a joke, then that really speaks volumes.
Desperate?? Yeah, okay... 🙂
Failed attempt? You're entitled to your views. It was probably a little mean of me as BillMC probably didn't understand the nuances of the 'pet shop boy' thing he reposted, and was using 'coming out' a little carelessly under the circumstances. Whatever, he can make his own excuses.
Why don’t you just make the case that Streeting is right to attack healthcare professionals working in the NHS.
Because I don't think that's what he's doing.
Can’t make it?
You'll have to ask rather more nicely if you want me to make a case for something I don't believe to be true :-;
It’s different because they’re reporting what the BMA say about Streeting,
So it's different because it is a much longer article than Bill's post and they are also reporting what the BMA has said.
But before that the very first thing they do is to agree with with Bill and report that Wes Streeting has criticised the BMA. They report that as a fact, they don't offer if as an opinion.
Desperate??
Yeah you appear desperate. You are arguing semantics ffs.
Because I don’t think that’s what he’s doing.
Well if you don't think he is attacking the BMA then you obviously haven't read the article. He is very clearly attacking them, the article even quotes him directly.
reporting what the BMA has said.
penny drops. And we can talk about the BMA another time. I really am checking out now.
Well it is you that has been denying the claim that Wes Streeting has been publicly criticising healthcare professionals working in the NHS.
Something which all news providers from the Daily Telegraph to the Guardian has been reporting, and which BillMC earlier drew attention to.
If you want to drop it now it comes as no surprise. The only surprise is how you persisted with something that was so clearly false.
If you want to defend Wes Streeting at least have the courage to say that he is right to criticise healthcare professionals working in the NHS. And maybe explain why.
https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1602303496015196160?t=yWxaXJ1B-fLzdeH6joYLYg&s=19
I guess that's the Coalition of Chaos ruled out 😅
Know your place serfs
<p class="dcr-vlranc"><span class="dcr-vlranc">You can only assume that Wes Streeting’s recent embrace of the private hospital sector as a solution to the current health crisis stems from naivety about how UK private healthcare works, or is part of the Labour leadership’s attempts to turn it into a party of the centre right.</span></p>
<p class="dcr-vlranc">It is certainly not based on evidence.</p>
Actually I believe its simple corruption. Streeting has taken bribes from private healthcare companies. He is completely unfit to serve as health minister
. And whilst Starmer has done a fantastic job expelling left-wingers from the party for the vaguest excuses it clearly isn’t enough for Austin
Okay. Well I've not heard a peep out of him recently until now.
Streeting says the issues with the NHS can be solved by chucking money at the private sector. He takes bribes from private health companies. He is no socialist
He's totally out of his depth, and a rabid liar. Not much experience either (student union anyone. ) But he is well media trained.
If the private sector can solve issues with the NHS then so can the state, at a more direct economic magnitude.
They're the same issues, only difference is government can pay. Job done.
Anything else is just wasting money on profit. He has no economic or ethical rationale for anything he says.
He's an embarrassment to his position.
Every day goes by and Labour become the bad cover version of the Tories, bereft of solid inspirational ideas. Same old private sector lies - allocating resources better twaddle.
And to TJA you think Streeting’s a tory and can keep repeating this. I don’t, but probably lack your stamina, so ducking out again.
What's he said that's makes you believe he's remotely to the left, and not using the market for delivery?
Ok so this is now Wes! Streeting!
On the private sector in UK healthcare let's first look at Ernie's favourite union's advice on the matter...
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/private-practice
Basically a lot of stuff like pay salaries and dividends to family members, take dividends, invest surplus company assets, and keep as much money in the business as possible with a view to drawing on these assets during retirement (when personal tax levels will be lower) rather than much more than double your salary.
For what zero my opinion is worth, I agree with every word pretty much of that article. But I think it more contextualises than contradicts the streeting piece, because this is right too:
I love the NHS. There were lots of things I worried about when I went through treatment for kidney cancer, but the one thing I never had to worry about was the bill. The NHS is free at the point of use and funded through progressive taxation because Labour created it and those are our values. They will be erased over my dead body.
Nye Bevan said in 1948 that “this service must always be changing, growing and improving”. In the Labour party, we have always understood that the NHS needs to change to adapt to modern challenges. Today, the NHS must do better for patients who are being badly let down. It is those opponents of reform who prove themselves to be the true conservatives.
The truth is that we spend far too much money in our hospitals because we don’t focus enough on prevention, early intervention and social care. As a result, patients end up in A&E because they can’t get a GP appointment, reach crisis point because they can’t get mental health support, or are trapped in hospital because there is no social care available.
Hospitals suck up the money because they have the power in the system and that's not right. It's going to take a lot of tackling. The private sector stuff is just an interim sticking plaster at best but can pragmatically add a bit of capacity which is really needed.
Anything else is just wasting money on profit.
And in the case of private healthcare stripping staff from the NHS. Private healthcare is more expensive per person treated and less safe
but can pragmatically add a bit of capacity which is really needed.
It cannot. Thats the falsehood
Not every difference of view is a "falsehood"/lie. There's no need to do this, really.
Yes it's the same surgeons we've paid to train boshing through hips at £10-£15k a pop and their fee is a lot of that, four hips a session, couple of sessions a day. It doesn't add to the number of surgeons in the nation able to do work if that's what you're calling a falsehood? But does mean they can be deployed (at high price) onto NHS waiting lists. This was done early 2000s from memory. Don't make me google for refs though there are loads. And don't ask me to say it's a good thing (if you're one of those waiting for a hip replacement who is now able to get it on the NHS you're allowed to think it's a good thing).
Using private hospitals does not create any extra capacity
Due to the tories deliberate running down on the NHS the middle classes are diverting in droves to private and waiting lists are now many month long in the private sector as well
Private hospitals do not have the facilities required for complex surgery on sick patients and any useage of the private sector will result in more patients being transferred to NHS hospitals when things go wrong
The same money spent in the NHS would create far more capacity
Streeting is lying because he is being paid by private healthcare to promote private healthcare not because he is deluded or mistaken or genuinely believes it. He is being paid by private healthcare to do this
It would be counterproductive and waste money. Thats what all those who really understand healthcare say.
Using private hospitals does not create any extra capacity
Due to the tories deliberate running down on the NHS the middle classes are diverting in droves to private and waiting lists are now many month long in the private sector as well
Private hospitals do not have the facilities required for complex surgery on sick patients and any useage of the private sector will result in more patients being transferred to NHS hospitals when things go wrong
The same money spent in the NHS would create far more capacity
agree
Streeting is lying because he is being paid by private healthcare to promote private healthcare
That would be a motive for him to lie, I guess. He'd reject the assertion he's paid to lie, but let's leave that for now. It does not make everything he says into a lie. The logic does not follow.
It would be counterproductive and waste money. Thats what all those who really understand healthcare say.
There are better ways to spend the money, I think I've just said. Though pharmacists and opticians have always been mainly private sector, and GPs are independent contractors. And dentistry... Oh dear dentistry. I'd nationalise the lot tbh.
However, there are people who understand healthcare better than me who will take a different line. Whether it would be counter productive is an empirical question.
Ah here we go:
I should pull out a specific ref for direct treatment centres. But basically the NHS ones were better than private sector. Doesn't mean it has to be that way in future of course, though I suspect it will be. Whatever, I'd be keen to see Wes have a go even if he's saying stuff I suspect for strategic reasons. If he's doing it for pay his rates are woefully low.
Now what was it I said about stamina?
so from that you agree its stupid to rely on private providers? Seems you agree with everything I say.
being corrupt is the obvious answer to why Streeting is doing this. there is no evidence for doing this and plenty against. Occams razer says he is simply corrupt