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I remember cycling past two builders pre-election (in deepest darkest Bassetlaw) and I was cursing Boris – and the builders shouted “yeah Boris!”
Yeah! Hang on, I mean whaa?! Cycling along, audibly cursing "ah that Johnson, that Boris ****ing Johnson's... policies, why youuu!" Perhaps it helps summon up a few extra watts?
Wages have been replaced by personal debt.
Which is exactly the point that Graeber was making. We've been sucked into a world where working people have been brainwashed into believing that they shouldn't be able to pay for things with money they earn today, and instead with money they earn tomorrow. The only question you have to ask about why this is the case is who makes money out of that?
Yeah! Hang on, I mean whaa?! Cycling along, audibly cursing “ah that Johnson, that Boris **** Johnson’s… policies, why youuu!” Perhaps it helps summon up a few extra watts?<
Them watts have been getting harder to muster since Brexit. I'm sure I saw 350 extra watts for me on a bus.
Ha ha. Not as dramatic just a fly by rant with the GF.
We’ve been sucked into a world where working people have been brainwashed into believing that they shouldn’t be able to pay for things with money they earn today, and instead with money they earn tomorrow
It's amazing what cheap leveraged debt has made of things.
There's got to be the almighty black swan at some point. I will eat my socks if the forthcoming financial meltdown gets propped up by a last minute Tory government.
I mean, economic models don't last forever do they?
I only dip in and out of this. I thought i would ckarify. The reason i don't really care about labour UK is that its operating in a foreign country . Westminster and england is a forign country to me.
Policies on Scotland are spectacularly shit. Starmets latest " no talking to the SNP" is an absurd position to take
Looks like the labour leadership election campaign has started. Maybe the gossip about Starmer being fined isn't all bollocks after all?
Yes because the shadow health secretary looking into healthcare is definitely a sign conspiracy theory is true 😉
The reason i don’t really care about labour UK is that its operating in a foreign country.
That's not really true though is it? You criticise left wingers for being 'ideologically pure' yet ignore the reality that Scotland is part of the UK and hence tied to the tory-labour establishment. Personally I'm quite supportive of Scottish independence, but the political dynamics are not much different to the English not wanting to be in the EU, and that's what I don't really understand about it.
but the people that voted for him were influenced by his persona
Well that is certainly one of the excuses given for people not voting Labour. However when the issue is actually researched the evidence is less obvious.
The public has a far more negative view of the new Tory leader than they did of Theresa May when she took over the top job.
If you read the whole article you will see the public had a remarkably low opinion of Johnson when he first became Tory leader, with most people quite correctly considering him to be "untrustworthy".
The article concludes :
Does Boris’s unpopularity matter?
Overall, there is definitely far more bad news in these numbers than there is good news for the new Conservative leader. By historic standards, Boris Johnson will be an unpopular new Prime Minister.
However, there are also reasons to believe that Johnson’s popularity levels might be less important than they have been for Prime Ministers gone by.
IMO far too much emphasis is put on a leaders personality. Even if it is Johnson's personality that attracts voters (which doesn't appear to be the case) it is still his policies which should be attacked, not his personality. It's not a ****ing beauty contest.
As far as cursing whilst cycling is concerned the only thing I curse is gravity.
much different to the English not wanting to be in the EU, and that’s what I don’t really understand about it.
At least you admit not understanding. The motivations are the opposite. Its not about hatred of furriners and inward and bacward looking. Its about being a modern social democratic state and being outward and forward looking
Sorry but to many of us england is a forign country in how we see it and one that imposes unrepresentative governments on us. Thats why i dont care. How much do you care about german politics?
Sorry but to many of us england is a forign country in how we see it and one that imposes unrepresentative governments on us.
Yes I understand that, I grew up in Newcastle and my inlaws are from Sevenoaks. There's not much I don't know about the gulf in wealth, culture and politics between the two. However, much like Scotland, what happens in the South East affects the rest of us. To a lesser extent in Scotland of course thanks to devolution, but the link between England and Scotland is much greater than that between the UK and Germany, so it's a bit daft to not be interested in westminster politics however much you like to pretend it doesn't apply in Scotland.
And as for being an 'outward looking' country, how does that tally with being anti-UK when Scotland has much more in common with the rest of the UK than Europe? It just doesn't seem very consistent to me.
Thats why i dont care. How much do you care about german politics?
This is quite a rant from someone who doesn't care :
This is a lovely little bubble of all mouth and trousers pseudo lefties who will never support Starmer because he is not ideologically pure and whithin this group think you have all convinced yourselves that Starmer is the antichrist despite no evidence and in tbe process constructing a completly false narrative . Anyone supporting Starmer gets shouted down
I can't imagine what it would be like if you did care.
The public has a far more negative view of the new Tory leader than they did of Theresa May when she took over the top job.
But we're talking about the period leading up to being elected?
And broadly we are not talking about just the public we are talking about the subset of people that elected him.
So whilst I agree that personality is not important for me - it very much is for some people.
I mean wasn't Corbyn cited as the largest reason for not voting Labour in 2019? At least in some polls.
But we’re talking about the period leading up to being elected?
The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?
Whilst I won't dispute Corbyn's lack of popularity you are hardly comparing like for like. Do you honestly think that Johnson would have won a landslide if his own MPs had claimed that he was absolutely shite prime ministerial material and were queuing up to denounce him as a racist and forcing leadership elections?
how does that tally with being anti-UK when Scotland has much more in common with the rest of the UK than Europe? It just doesn’t seem very consistent to me.
Easy. I dont feel that i have more in common with the England. I look to the nordic countries and low countries and feel more incommon with them
It doesn't matter what the government in Westminster is. Its going to be shit for us. Two cheeks of tbe same arse
Also my petsonal circumstances make it hard to give a shit
Ernie thats a lighthearted rant about the postets on here. Should have had a 😀
Ernie is right in that if the plp had got behind Corbyn the results would have been very different. Some of them would rather have a tory government than a lefty pm.
So Immediately after wiping the slate clean and ditching all of Labour's manifesto commitments, and Starmer claiming Labour would be starting "from scratch" the very first new policy that Labour suggests is the creation of a "National Care Service", based on the National Health Service :
The Guardian: Labour to aim to launch national care service inspired by creation of NHS.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/03/labours-wes-streeting-launches-review-to-plan-for-national-care-serviceWhich is the same policy as was in the 2017 and 2019 election manifestos.
I am not complaining, far from it, but I am a little surprised that the very first policy announcement since starting from scratch should be an old recycled policy.
You would have thought that it might have been something a bit more new and unique. Perhaps Starmer is struggling with new ideas?
Ernie is right in that if the plp had got behind Corbyn the results would have been very different.
That's not really the point I was trying to make, although obviously true.
The point I was making is that voters opinions of Corbyn will have been influenced by the fact that much of the PLP was publicly questioning whether Corbyn was fit to be PM and accusing him of being a racist whilst also mounting a leadership challenge against him.
Is it really surprising that many voters had a problem with Corbyn? Can you imagine that sort of campaign against Johnson before the 2019 general election? Would voters not have had more of a problem with Johnson had he experienced the same treatment? Would the Tories have won such a landslide?
The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?
It's still not a poll on people's thoughts before an election.
The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?
It's still not a poll on people's thoughts before an election which I do think are a certain frame of mind. It's possible to have buyer's remorse.
Whilst I won’t dispute Corbyn’s lack of popularity you are hardly comparing like for like. Do you honestly think that Johnson would have won a landslide if his own MPs had claimed that he was absolutely shite prime ministerial material and were queuing up to denounce him as a racist and forcing leadership elections?
One way or another something is shaping the popularity. So I'd say Corbyn was less popular as a result in part from the Labour PLP and their treasonous attitude.
Johnson was clearly more popular in part due to the fact the Tories supported him.
You can't extrapolate popularity from the circumstances that may have created it.
The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?
It's still not a poll on people's thoughts before an election which I do think are a certain frame of mind. It's possible to have buyer's remorse.
Whilst I won’t dispute Corbyn’s lack of popularity you are hardly comparing like for like. Do you honestly think that Johnson would have won a landslide if his own MPs had claimed that he was absolutely shite prime ministerial material and were queuing up to denounce him as a racist and forcing leadership elections?
One way or another something is shaping the popularity. So I'd say Corbyn was less popular as a result in part from the Labour PLP and their treasonous attitude.
Johnson was clearly more popular in part due to the fact the Tories supported him.
You can't extrapolate popularity from the circumstances that may have created it.
Labour PLP and their treasonous attitude.
So do you think the fact that Corbyn was serially "treasonous" his entire political career may have had an impact on how his colleagues may have regarded him as leader? Ultimately political parties are a team, Corbyn spent his political career playing largely against his own team.
So do you think the fact that Corbyn was serially “treasonous” his entire political career may have had an impact on how his colleagues may have regarded him as leader?
Look - Ian Austin sent me a letter asking me not to vote for Corbyn. Can you seriously get more treasonous than that? His own party at the time.
Same sentiment from my local MP John Mann. Bunch of hawks.
In what way is Corbyn treasonous - it's the PLP's shift away from supporting its own values that is treasonous.
I mean look at the state of them.
Corbyn would have been a magnitude better for the country than this shower and the PLP played their part. Treasonous.
If you even look at the way a centrist operates they get angry at the state of things (while it's current) but not prepared to change anything substantially enough to make a difference.
Let's have a laugh at change UK whilst were at it - they furthered the cause didn't they? Their own cause that is.
In what way? Voting for the right things?
im not saying he didn’t vote with his conscious, I’m sure he felt strongly about all the votes he made, but the fact remains that he was *the* most rebellious MP, voting what? Over 400 times against the whip while Labour was in power* The was no way that the rest of the PLP was just going to shrug and say “ah, now you’re leader, the rest of us will just fall in line” and not have a perspective about a bloke who’d never been a team player saying let’s all be on the same side. It’s fantastical thinking
the very first time he has to have a conversation with an MP about loyalty, or about voting with the Labour whip; his own record gets thrown back at him.
Wasn't the 2019 manifesto was put together by a team which Starmer has now decided to jettison so he can reposition the party to the right of its members?
Why are they so sodding scared of suggesting, actually, this was a really bad idea and maybe we could do something else? We all now know there's no good Brexit. This just precludes that coalition with the LDs and any credibility with remain/rejoiners which by now I suspect is the majority.
I don't get it.
Corbyn spent his political career playing largely against his own team.
Did he?
Or did he play against his own team when his own team swapped shirts?
not quite so simple
The was no way that the rest of the PLP was just going to shrug and say “ah, now you’re leader, the rest of us will just fall in line”
Do we really have to do this again? As I've pointed out many times, there's an enormous difference between voting against the govt in parliament on a point of principle, and calling your leader a 'f***** racist' or telling voters not to vote for your party. Labour MPs weren't opposing Corbyn on a point of principle, they were being spiteful petulant children who couldn't accept that they had lost in a democratic vote.
Even at the height of the Iraq war and after I don't ever recall Corbyn calling Blair a war criminal or telling voters not to vote labour, even though he would have been justified given the evidence of Blair's lies and deception. He never wavered from campaigning for the labour party and labour candidates. FFS, even now after they tried to kick him out of the party he's not said anything against it.
I don’t get it.
A large portion of the leave vote was labour supporters. I don't think that it's practical (or possible) to campaign for or try to negotiate a way back in to the single market so quickly - not least I think is that the EU will be mindful that the next Tory govt will likely try to reverse it again.
That time has passed, we now need to make the best of what we've got.
This just precludes that coalition with the LDs and any credibility with remain/rejoiners which by now I suspect is the majority.
First off the Lib Dems would ever enter into a coalition with Labour, and recent history suggests the exact opposite would be more likely. Secondly there's no evidence of a majority for rejoining the EU. Like it or not the only option is to make being outside the EU work. Labour lost the last election after adopting a policy which enabled the cancelling of brexit. They'll lose the next one and many after that if they even talk about rejoining. It's pretty much the only thing that Starmer has got right, and it's a pity he didn't adopt this position in the run up to thee 2019 election, we might not have a tory govt right now.
the fact that Corbyn was serially “treasonous” his entire political career
There is nothing treasonous about voting in line with the values and aims of the Labour Party. The same can't be said about those who vote in clear defiance of Labour values and aims.
Corbyn has voted consistently throughout his parliamentary career exactly as you would expect a Labour MP to vote, which undoubtedly was a significant reason why the majority of party members supported him in the 2 leadership elections.
In contrast many in the PLP have consistently voted in a shockingly Tory manner, such as in favour of privatisation and war. There is a reason why they sing the Red Flag at the end of a Labour Party Conference, some people should pay attention to the words, especially the reference to "traitors".
The was no way that the rest of the PLP was just going to shrug and say “ah, now you’re leader, the rest of us will just fall in line”
Why not? On two occasions Corbyn was elected leader by clear unambiguous majorities - the largest mandate of any previous Labour Leader, and larger than the current Leader.
Otherwise what exactly is the point of putting it to the membership, if the PLP can simply refuse to work with any leader they don't approve of?
I may have stuck up for Starmer before, and may have even voted for him...but not after reading this, thismorning.
Just...wow...
I don’t get it.
That's probably because you don't see Starmer as a dishonest opportunitist and political careerist.
I suspect that the driving force behind Starmer's support for Remain was similar to what drove Johnson to support Leave - political expediency, and what best supports their career prospects.
That’s probably because you don’t see Starmer as a dishonest opportunitist and political careerist.
Unfortunatley, this. I for one, stand corrected 🙁
I may have stuck up for Starmer before, and may have even voted for him…but not after reading this, thismorning.
He's simply the latest in a long line of Labour leaders who are terrified to say what they really believe on immigration. Apart from one of course, who was always honest about the need for immigration and the issues surrounding it. No one wanted to listen to him though because his MPs were calling him a racist. 🤷🏻♂️
Starmer not wanting cause division but now will be hiving off to the libdems.
What a mess.
We all know what you don't want Starmzy - but what do you want apart from insulation, 5% off energy and small business rate cuts?
Staggering reach them.
Come on Durham sort him out.
It’s pretty much the only thing that Starmer has got right, and it’s a pity he didn’t adopt this position in the run up to thee 2019 election, we might not have a tory govt right now.
This.
These idiots couldnt see it coming and now want to patch it.
Come on Durham sort him out.
IMO the most likely outcome if Durham Constabulary concludes that Starmer did in fact break lockdown rules is that they will simply say so but not issue him with a fixed penalty notice.
This will give Starmer the schoolboy pedantic excuse "I only said that I would resign if I was fined".
The threat of resignation has of course had the effect of pressurising the police not to issue a FPN as they are made aware of the political consequences of their action. Durham police won't want to be seen as directly responsible for a senior politician's political downfall.
Starmer to set out Labour’s Brexit policy, saying rejoining single market would ‘be recipe for more division’
Why rule it out, there is no bloody need at this point? In a year's time, the widening gap between our economic prospects and those of EU countries, and the impact on working people ought to be even more obvious. At which point it is imperative that not just the LibDems are saying rejoin the single market. Why chain yourself to this ****ing millstone into 2024?
It seems like Labour ought to be pointing out that the results of losing market access - recession, inflation and austerity are the true causes of division in the people they are claiming to represent.
A shrinking percentage of the electorate still wants this shit, it is likely that well over half now understand what we have done to ourselves. But no-one is representing us. Is that not fuelling division too?
Durham police won’t want to be seen as directly responsible for a senior politician’s political downfall.
They can't win either way - if they phrase it as you've suggested, there would be intense political pressure to issue an FPN as the PM got one for 'just having a bit of cake'.
Never voted Labour. Voted to the left and right of them.
Never voted tory. I won't say I wouldn't vote tory, but it would be have to be a cats living with dogs, rain falling upwards, weird world for me to do that.
I'm that most odious of voters, the "swing voter" (Groovy baby! Let's swing!).
AKA a kingmaker.
Had "moved" towards voting Labour but this brexit statement?...
I'm now backing way... smiling and nodding, smiling and nodding...
Had “moved” towards voting Labour but this brexit statement?…
I look forward to the usual suspects posting their 'any vote which isn't for labour is a vote for the tories' response.
Why rule it out, there is no bloody need at this point?
If I was the EU there's no way I look at a deal for the UK to re-enter the single market, before it was in the manifesto of both parties, and there's clearly an overwhelming support in the country for it.
If that were the case, one of the main parties needs to demonstrate that it is an idea that can gain electoral support first, before the other will even contemplate shifting its position. The idea that there can be a 'good Brexit' if you elect a Labour government doesn't seem like the kind of platform that appeals to anyone.
there would be intense political pressure to issue an FPN as the PM got one for ‘just having a bit of cake’.
Well yes of course but it could be argued different police force with different protocols. And also that the Met's decision was never seen as having such direct political consequences.
I agree that the political pressure on Durham Constabulary is wholly unfair. They quite rightly didn't want to investigate the affair long after it is alleged to have occurred, the same as the Met Police.
It seems like Labour ought to be pointing out that the results of losing market access – recession, inflation and austerity are the true causes of division in the people they are claiming to represent.
Yes but the origins for these problems are mostly post-pandemic / supply-chain / just-in-time stocks and neoliberal slide - and Brexit won't be helping of course.
Irrespective - Starmer doesn't want to push too hard against market-forces it appears. So, he's not representing the people that would vote for him.
Yes but the origins for these problems are mostly post-pandemic
Leaving the single market and the customs union is not a 'post pandemic issue' itwas never how brexit was sold to the UK public. That was May/Boris' ultra hard brexit masquerading as 'soft' brexit.
And now starmer is supporting this? He may as well start wearing a blue rosette and cross the floor.
I was prepared to tactically vote labour if needed, but the only party I can vote for now is the liberal democrats. It's either that or abstain.
Im 100% a remainer
but if you think Labour would ever have been able to go into the next election on a rejoin or SM/FOM ticket then you are very naive
Theres no SM without FOM & you only have to see how popular the rwanda policy is among certain groups to realise that FOM is an election loser
Itll take another electoral cycle at least before thats a realistic option, simply because too many people refuse to admit that they were wrong to vote for it
I was prepared to tactically vote labour if needed, but the only party I can vote for now is the liberal democrats. It’s either that or abstain.
It's like 2019 all over again. 😄
I refere the court to comments I made a few days ago..
Remember when all the remainers on here were saying they weren’t going to vote labour in 2019 because they refused to be part of a pro-brexit majority? I clearly recall being called a nazi sympathiser for saying labour (and remainers in general) should accept the referendum result. Yet now those of us who don’t want to vote labour (I really, really don’t*) on account of Starmer’s acquiesance to the right wing establishment are called ‘tory enablers’ by many of the same people who took exactly the same stance on brexit. What’s the difference?
There are already plenty of people who won't vote Labour because Starmer was a "remainer", and I don't think this approach will win many over... in addition, this approach will add to that many people who now won't vote Labour because they want the UK in the Single Market (not all "remainers" of course, plenty of people wanted a "no longer EU member, but included in the Single Market" position when they voted to Leave). The truth is, there isn't a policy as regards Europe for Labour that won't make lots of people wary of them... all Labour can hope to do, in this election cycle, is try and neutralise it as an issue with a "no substantial change, but a few sensible concessions towards moving goods and workers"... and I suppose that's what the veterinarian agreement and a fudge on touring staff seeks to do. They're hoping that "resigned remainers" will think that at least they are proposing something, and that "practical leavers" will think that at least they're trying to make Brexit work... and that plenty of other people just start to ignore the question all together. I don't think it'll work... but I don't have an approach more likely to work to suggest either.
@kimbers I agree, but I thought starmer had the political nouce to maybe join 'some sort of customs union' without advertising it too loudly, without enraging the far right brexit loonies enough to shed too many potential labour voters.
To come out and say what he said today...
“So let me be very clear: with Labour, Britain will not go back into the EU. We will not be joining the single market. We will not be joining a customs union.”
I was wrong. I was so wrong. I'll never vote labour under starmer, the lib dems will get my vote.
I thought starmer had the political nouce to maybe join ‘some sort of customs union’ without advertising it too loudly, without enraging the far right brexit loonies enough to shed too many potential labour voters.
The minute Starmer says he wants to sign up to the CU or Sm, Johnson & the Tories will be jumping up & down, becaus ethey know it gets their base aroused, to be able to paint Labour as a threat to their Brexit
I’ll never vote labour under starmer, the lib dems will get my vote.
Do you have a tory MP? Are the lib dems the main challenger? If not then you are a tory enabler and I claim my 5 pounds.
So his solution is 'if you can't beat' em, join 'em?
That's a firm' get in the sea' from me.
Do you have a tory MP? Are the lib dems the main challenger? If not then you are a tory enabler and I claim my 5 pounds.
My local MP is the illustrious Mr Craig Whittaker, last time I checked.
I'd never vote for a pro-hard brexit party such as the conservatives, or Labour under Starmer, it's as simple as that.
And you'd rather keep him as your MP...? Rightio...
So his solution is ‘if you can’t beat’ em, join ’em?
Yes reduce division by giving way entirely to the hard right loons.
And you’d rather keep him as your MP…? Rightio…
I'll vote lib dem or abstain. As the old saying goes, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
Now Starmer has revealed himself as a hard core brexiteer, There is no way on earth I'll vote Labour.
I am prepared to tactically vote, but if it's a choice of hard brexit under the tories, or Starmers Labour, I'm out.
My local MP is the illustrious Mr Craig Whittaker
Me too. If I can bring myself to vote labour to get rid of the c*** then you have no excuse either. Have a word with yourself.
to maybe join ‘some sort of customs union’ without advertising it too loudly, without enraging the far right brexit loonies
cant happen, and that’s not necessarily Starmer’s fault. The EU are not going to start talking to anyone about any sort of renegotiation of the current deal while the Tory party is staunchly against the idea of the customs union ( as are a good number of the public still) It would be just a waste of everyone’s time.
Leaving the single market and the customs union is not a ‘post pandemic issue’ itwas never how brexit was sold to the UK public. That was May/Boris’ ultra hard brexit masquerading as ‘soft’ brexit.
I'm not saying is the but the things you have listed have been heavily influenced mostly by post-pandemic macro conditions. I'm separating Brexit out.
I think there will be a quite a few in Mattyfez shoes.
Personally I think it just demonstrates how Brexit was always an impossible situation for Labour.
Starmer should just up about it AND OFFER UP SOMETHING GOOD FFS for the type of voters that might be swayed by the Brexit wound. Moron.
Don't say what you're not going to do - say what you're going to do!
GodI wish he would!! The timidity of the Labour front bench is just depressing
Me too. If I can bring myself to vote labour to get rid of the c*** then you have no excuse either. Have a word with yourself.
Who is the fool? the fool, or the fools that follow the fool?
My mind is made up, I'm voting Lib Dem. I don't care if it's a wasted vote, it's better than abstaining.
Personally I think it just demonstrates how Brexit was always an impossible situation for Labour.
I don't mean to start an argument, but labours problem, as I have said previously in polical threads on here, is that Labour is not a unified party, there are several factions within the party having constant public, internal spats.
A poitical party needs a unified, concice ideology, if they ever want to get elected.
A poitical party needs a unified, concice ideology, if they ever want to get elected.
Not necessarily. The tories are equally divided although they are more willing to be quiet it still bubbles up.
To get elected you just need the electoral system to be tilted in your favour and have the media behind you.
I don’t care if it’s a wasted vote
It's not a wasted vote, in Calderdale, which is a tory-labour ultra marginal it's a vote for the tories, plain and simple. I too have said I wasn't going to vote labour, and I still don't want to, but I've accepted this simple logic. If you want more tory govt and more brexit nonsense then carry on. Kelvin have a word will you.. 😄
GodI wish he would!! The timidity of the Labour front bench is just depressing
They should get rid of Starmer and have Angela Rayner as head of the party.
They should get rid of Starmer and have Angela Rayner as head of the party.
That would be an improvement but will do nothing towards rejoining the EU. Rayner is just as much of an opportunist as Starmer and is no more enthusiastic about rejoining as Starmer is. I don't know for a fact, but I wouldn't be surprised if she's a closet lexiteer.
It’s not a wasted vote, in Calderdale, which is a tory-labour ultra marginal it’s a vote for the tories, plain and simple. I too have said I wasn’t going to vote labour, and I still don’t want to, but I’ve accepted this simple logic. If you want more tory govt and more brexit nonsense then carry on. Kelvin have a word will you.. 😄
I would have agreed with you 100% until yesterday, or was it this morning, when Starmer publicly announced his anti-EU Stance.
Unless there's a serious shift in Labour policy, then they will not get my vote. Niether will the conservatives, that goes without saying.
Kelvin have a word will you...
Can we break this out to the pub?
As an ex LibDem member (boo hiss...) now not just voting for but campaigning for Labour in this seat... there would probably be lots of hard agreeing about what we want... even if the end result is not an agreement on how to vote. I can promise good beer though... which is something... I can't promise any such positives will come out of further discussion in this thread... 🥴
Niether will the conservatives.
It doesn't matter if you're not voting conservative. Anything other than a vote for labour in Calderdale is a vote for the tories. I don't like it any more than you do, but that's the reality of the situation. You can choose to ignore this, but don't then complain about tory brexit policies when they win again. Who did you vote for in 2019 BTW?
publicly announced his anti-EU Stance.
Of course he has. It's going to be a journey from 1.Denial, to 2.****! what have we done?, to 3. We have to make the best of it, to 4. let's have something like Norway, to 5.rejoining.
I think we're at just about at 3 in the last couple of months, but the rest will take ages, my guess is that it'll take 10 years, maybe longer.
Anything other than a vote for labour in Calderdale is a vote for the tories.
It's a pretty binary choice in Calderdale. The Green Party even pulled their candidate last time, and went around campaigning with the Labour members (transparently, still wearing green badges). I've had dealings with both the previous LibDem candidates... and they both knew they would and could never win and become MPs. That's our crazy voting system. In this seat it's vote Tory, or vote Labour, or essentially spoil your paper. It stinks really. I'd like everyone to vote for their preferred candidate or party, rather than have to vote tactically... but in this seat, you vote for Craig Whittaker, or you vote Labour to try and remove him. Everything else is shouting at clouds and helping the Tories win the seat. Bring on some kind of PR. But for now deal with the world as it is in front of us.
As for the "this policy is miles from what I want" feeling (which I share)... on Europe, and anything else for that matter, all you can do is ask who is more likely to move things in your direction (check out Whittaker's voting record), and can win in your seat... again, if we had PR, it would be an entirely different decision to make (and we'd be offered different choices to deal with anyway).
In addition... I'm hoping Labour will have a different and more engaged parliamentary candidate next time... more on that at a later date... 🤞🏻
I respect your views Dazh, but I'm not going to vote for a party Like Labour when they are essentially conservatives.
Have you considered voting Lib dem?
It’s a pretty binary choice in Calderdale.
It might well be, but i'll be no part in it.
A poitical party needs a unified, concice ideology, if they ever want to get elected.
Ideologies are very flexible these days and swayed by the above as per dissonance.
The whole 'ideology purity' gets pushed around and drives me crackers - it's just a Centrist way of saying - yeah we know the world's rough but we don't really want to change it enough.
Besides there's absolutely nothing ideologically pure about the Labour Party. They are (were) even under Corbyn offering a mixed economy solution. With now a nod to the failings of the current system.
I agree a new economic model needs to unify them. And they need a much better gameplan. But I suppose individual MPs are never going to be that linear.
This is the problem - always thinking about the next GE and not future GE's. Nobody votes LibDem because nobody votes LibDem. There's one way to break that cycle and that's to vote LibDem.
In the current environment, Labour are unlikely to form the next government anyway and if you genuinely believe that Single Market/Freedom of Movement is essential and it's not on offer from either Tory or Labour then this is as good a time as any to vote FOR something and not against something else.
Edit : .
Vote for an MP who will change the make up of parliament in your direction. Lots of LibDem votes in a Tory/Labour marginal will be as useful as lots of Labour votes in a Tory/LibDem marginal (or a Tory/SNP marginal)…