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But the material conditions on the ground in England are different and the genie is out of the bottle. You can't address the issue without addressing the issue. You HAVE to acknowledge that a lot of people hold these concerns before you can turn the tide
This demographic is the base, working class core of the labour vote in England, and they've been lost to crass populism because labour no longer they need to be brought back on side. That might take a generation. Dunno.
Yeaaaahhh. Not quite Longsight
I lived in Longsight for over 10 years, and then 12 years in Levenshulme. What's your point?
You HAVE to acknowledge that a lot of people hold these concerns before you can turn the tide
It's also fair to say that not all of these concerns are racist. Some areas have seen significant immigration over the last twenty years, and there hasn't been the necessary investment in public services to match. People found that all of a sudden they could no longer get a school place or a doctor's appointment, so I do have some sympathy.
I lived on the Whalley range / mosside boarder for 10 years and do not get the point.
This demographic is the base, working class core of the labour vote in England, they need to be brought back on side.
And the right way to do this is by making anti immigrant rhetoric? Really? Or is the right way to lead, to set an example and to teach the reality
when I first lived in Scotland in the 70s anti english racism was rife and anti immigrant rhetoric was probably worse than in england. Now the anti english racism is only a tiny fringe and anti immigrant rhetoric firmly consigned to the fringes.
the difference? Political LEADERSHIP! Not weathervane politicians who will say what they think people want to hear
Lots of brown people live there. Some white people view that negatively/threateningly. I didn't when I lived there, as I assume neither did you. But some people do.
Thats right – the negative potrayal of immigration is a huge non issue because anyone who tries it gets slapped down firmly.
Yes, but to deny people who live in areas of high immigration their actual lived experience, block filling of jobs on production lines by agencies, lower daily rates of pay, longer hours etc your own middle class comfort blinds you to any other motive other than just "dislike of foreigners" As others have pointed out Scottish politics has it's own special bogeyman, not available to the likes of Farage and Patel. Burnham also pointed out in his speech (the bits you often leave out) that the issue was big businesses trafficking vulnerable workers for maximum profit.
Its not the actual lived experience - its the lies they have been fed over decades. If it were true then why do we now have huge shortages of workers in retail, healthcare and hospitality?
this idea Scotland has its own "bogeyman" so does not need anti immigrant rhetoric is utter nonsense and both ignorant and offensive.
Remember I am obviously of english descent, I have a very english accent and am very sensitive to racism. It is simply not the case that anti english sentiment ( which is what you are implying) has the same role in Scotland as anti immigrant rhetoric does in england. Pure baloney!
Edinburgh is so full or immigrants that an Edinburgh accent becomes a rarity. The majority of my friends are immigrants
Its not the actual lived experience
Oh right, I hadn't realised you were omniscient. Well, there's no arguing with that
If it were true then why do we now have huge shortages of workers in retail, healthcare and hospitality?
You do realise that doesnt really support your argument? From the perspective of those looking for jobs in those sectors then the shortages are actually beneficial since it puts them in a better bargaining position (at least in the short term you then start running into automation/giving up alternatives).
this idea Scotland has its own “bogeyman” so does not need anti immigrant rhetoric is utter nonsense and both ignorant and offensive.
Sorry but you announcing something as fact doesnt make it so.
Edinburgh is so full or immigrants that an Edinburgh accent becomes a rarity.
I am not sure how that really helps your previous statement and also doesnt add much anyway. After all immigration attitudes in London are way different to some of the red wall towns.
Cities by their nature tend to be a lot more mixed.
Whether the issues caused by mis-managed immigration are an issue to you or not does not mean those that it is directly an issue for are all racists.
When the "Issues" presented are all untrue and have been grossly inflated / invented by racists its a false premise.
Jeepers guys can you not see how you have been manipulated? 20 years of Anti racist and pro immigration / integration rhetoric from scots politicians has lead to a huge reduction in predjudice
In england you have had 20 years of anti immigration rhetoric and its poisoned peoples minds
this is the leadership point. Good leaders LEAD. they set the political agenda.
Sorry but you announcing something as fact doesnt make it so.
OK - give me an example of this mythical "bogeyman" that comes from someone in the mainstream? Yo are so certain that this imaginary "bogeyman" fulfills the same role in Scotland as the anti immigrant lies in england then you must have some examples?
back in the 70s were were often told to go back home and we were not wanted. haven't head that in decades. haven't see a single ;piece of anti english predjudice in decades
When the “Issues” presented are all untrue and have been grossly inflated / invented by racists its a false premise.
Just one example: The production line at the chicken processing plant in the town of Brackley has almost no local workers in it. They are routinely bussed in from Northampton Kettering, Corby and Wellingborough, and are almost all eastern European doing a 12 hour shift for minimum wage that has deductions made from it for "accommodation" and "processing" and "documents clearance" etc. To get a job on the production line, you apply to the agency, not to the factory gate directly. What should be a thriving locally staffed long term employer has in fact almost entirely handed the staffing to two or three "Partner Agencies". who will only employ those it can exploit. The factory of course, turns a blind eye to this, after all, all their staff on employed legally and are on minimum wages
That's one example of one factory in one small market town in the South Midlands. If you think that's an isolated case, your omniscience isn't as good as you think.
Jeepers guys can you not see how you have been manipulated?
Oh, here we go….
Again…
Anyone who doesn’t agree with me and recognise the obvious wisdom of my argument is a mindless drone, incapable of independent thought and needing their opinions spoon fed to them by daily mail editorials and Tory politicians
🙄
Re immigration levels in Scotland
I don't know the stats but having had a baby born in a Glasgow hospital recently who was in intensive care for a couple of weeks - I was quite surprised by the fact that the vast majority of staff there were white and British-born. This is the direct reverse of my experience of hospitals in England.
this idea Scotland has its own “bogeyman” so does not need anti immigrant rhetoric is utter nonsense and both ignorant and offensive.
I think there's something in it tbh. It's more justified though.
daily mail editorials and Tory politicians
Was his point not that it hasn't been limited to the Daily Mail and Tory politicians? Everyone has been on board at some point... from Burnham to the BBC... from Miliband to the Mirror... it's entirely normalised, entirely mainstream in our politics and press. As is the idea that countering anti-immigrant claims is "selling out the working class".
Everyone has been on board at some point… from Burnham to the BBC… from Miliband to the Mirror…
So the BBC and Miliband are also guilty of pandering to racists?
How come TJ has singled out Burnham for special criticism then?
According to TJ Burnham is no different to Gordon Brown, Jack Straw, and now apparently, Ed Miliband.
So why does he bring up this argument about racism every time Burnham's name is mentioned?
When the “Issues” presented are all untrue and have been grossly inflated / invented by racists its a false premise.
All of the issues are untrue, interesting. Do you want to give me a list of all the issues you have analysed as being untrue? You must have that to make such a bold statement?
Try to keep an open mind. Immigration does cause real issues. They can be tackled and resolved if any government/council wants to try but they are still real issues.
They can also be used to base a racist agenda on, but still issues.
What should be a thriving locally staffed long term employer has in fact almost entirely handed the staffing to two or three “Partner Agencies”. who will only employ those it can exploit.
So as I said above, instead of focusing attention on those "comin' over ere, stealing our jobs", focus instead on providing a level playing field where all workers get the same and aren't exploited. People on the left have been saying this for as long as immigration has been an issue and yet every time the argument goes back to 'controls on immigration'. We don't need controls on immigration, we need controls on exploiting workers. I recognise though that many see that as a 6th form pipe dream.
Seems to me in this case the simple solution is to prevent businesses hiring people via dodgy agencies who exclude local workers. Would that be pro-business though?
Would it be pro-business? Yes... taking away competitive advantages gained by some companies exploiting workers is very pro-business. Just as it is pro-worker. A level playing field for the employers who don't use such exploitative practices.
According to TJ Burnham is no different to Gordon Brown, Jack Straw, and now apparently, Ed Miliband.
He's wrong again, Burnham can eat a bacon sandwich, he also doesn't rack up the air miles to the states nor go to court to change a relative's will
So where are the examples of Scotlands own bogeyman that means we do not need this anti immigrant rhetoric?
come on - several of you made this claim and I countered it was total bobbins - so lets see some examples?
Was his point not that it hasn’t been limited to the Daily Mail and Tory politicians? Everyone has been on board at some point… from Burnham to the BBC… from Miliband to the Mirror… it’s entirely normalised, entirely mainstream in our politics and press. As is the idea that countering anti-immigrant claims is “selling out the working class”.
Bingo - you get it!
Whereas in Scotland the anti immigrant rhetoric has been consigned to the fringes because the political leaders up here reject it and slap down hard anyone who tries to make a play based on it
this is the difference between leadership and weathervane politicians
Ernie - Burnham was particularly obvious the way he did it but any politician of any party who gets embroiled in anti immigrant rhetoric should be ashamed. All they do is legitimatize anti immigrant feeling
I've seen a town fill up with ex-auction cars with mobile numbers in the window so that you couldn't park, noisy multiple occupancy round-the-clock houses, son applies for a summer job ('you don't speak *** and they wouldn't work with you anyway'), alienated workers smashed off their faces in the morning, beer tins all around park benches (next to the litter bin), all unpleasant and anti-social stuff but arising from the neo-liberal movement of cheap super-exploited labour whilst extolling some virtue signalling 'anti-racism' to justify it all. The real issues are about poverty and insecure employment but those issues are conveniently fogged up by ethnicity. Go to any poor area and it's going to be shit.
I don’t know the stats but having had a baby born in a Glasgow hospital recently who was in intensive care for a couple of weeks – I was quite surprised by the fact that the vast majority of staff there were white and British-born.
Highly unusual. Sure there were no EU born staff?
My ward before I retired
3 black african staff. 5 asian subcontinent. 1 philipino, one madagascan, 3 Basque, 5 polish, One belarus, one korean. one chinese one ukranian, one bulgarian
Around half the staff first generation immigrants
.
We don’t need controls on immigration, we need controls on exploiting workers.
Exactly, which is how the issues can be fixed/managed.
Unfortunately it is easier for the tory party to state immigration is the problem which is also convenient otherwise they have to blame themselves for not managing immigration, controlling exploitation etc,. The voters seems to buy it.
If it were true then why do we now have huge shortages of workers in retail, healthcare and hospitality
No global pandemic then.......
During the Brexit vote we were told there were 2 million EU citizens in the UK, roll forward and 5 million have successfully applied for settled status
Ernie – Burnham was particularly obvious the way he did it
More obvious than Gordon Brown's "British jobs for British workers"?
I don't recall you accusing Gordon Brown of pandering to racists every time his name has been mentioned?
Or have I simply missed it?
Seriously, I want you to tell us that Gordon Brown is totally unacceptable as a politician because he panders to racism.
Big and daft - its 100% brexit. those sectors in Scotland relied on eu immigrants. Many of them have gone home and no more are coming
Just for a little example - pre the brexit vote the NHS took roughly a thousand EU nurse a month. post brexit it dropped to hundreds per year and thats pre pandemic
During the Brexit vote we were told there were 2 million EU citizens in the UK, roll forward and 5 million have successfully applied for settled status
Number of applications not number of people. Office of National Statistics': "best estimate at this time is 3.5 million and that figure will be updated later this year, once the APS has been reweighted using the HMRC data."
https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/
Happily condemn him Ernie. Browns playing of the race card was totally unacceptable. But he is no longer in any position of power. Burnham is and many folk on here hold him up as a beacon of what the labour party should be. I merely point out that he cynically played the race card legitimising racists and refused to fight back against the false racist rhetoric instead nurtured it. compare that to the statements on immigration coming from Scottish politicians
Number of applications not number of people. Office of National Statistics’: “best estimate at this time is 3.5 million
Only a 75% increase in the number during the Brexit debate then, happy to be corrected.
its 100% brexit.
Yes I'm sure it's 100% Brexit
I'm sure none left to get a better education for their kids seeing where Scotland is dropping to in international ratings, or as you live in Edinburgh they didn't want to pay to send them to a private school with 25% of their mates
Etc etc
I tend not to comment on this thread but do occasionally read it. Even more nonsense than usual is being spouted so here are some actual figures which might help.
As of the 2011 census 80% of the population of England & Wales are classified 'white British'.
As of the 2011 census 92% of the population of Scotland are classified 'white British'.
Indeed, 84% of the population of Scotland are classified 'white Scottish'.
Unlike you Big and daft I actually spoke to some of the EU nurses leaving scotland. Half a dozen of them. Every one cited brexit as the reason. One factor changes - brexit and there is a huge change in the number of EU nurses coming to the UK. All the other factors remained the same. Brexit is 100% the reason for the massive change in EU nurses coming to the UK. I have also read the analysis done on this by various bodies. 100% brexit
Happily condemn him Ernie.
So you think that Gordon Brown, the man who was almost certainly the driving force behind Tony Blair's decision to allow unrestricted immigration from 10 new EU member states in 2004, when the overwhelming majority of existing EU member states didn't, is guilty of pandering to racists?
I think it is fair to say that Tony Blair deferred all issues likely to have economic consequences to Gordon Brown. And when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister he did not tighten up immigration rules as far as I am aware.
But you want to condemn him anyway?
Still, according to you the present UK government is bordering on being fascist, so Gordon Brown needs to jump through quite a few hoops to satisfy you.
Highly unusual. Sure there were no EU born staff?
Maybe one or two. Thing is TJ, you live in Edinburgh - which is basically England. 😉
Half a dozen of them. Every one cited brexit as the reason
Huge sample size
Even odder is that they get right to remain and all their EU travel and working rights, if they are Irish they have complete freedom. They were working in a city with no anti immigration sentiment, in a part of the country where everyone loved them
But it's still 100% Brexit, not one person with another reason out of all the thousands....
80% of the population of England & Wales are classified ‘white British’.
How many of the 80% identify as Scottish?
Unfortunately it is easier for the tory party to state immigration is the problem
Why single out the tories? I don't see labour saying anything different. TJ has already highlighted Burnham's use of the dog whistle, and Ernie Gordon Brown's. And lets not forget the infamous 'controls on immigration' mugs, the maker of which is now back in the shadow home secretary job. And then there's people like binners, sworn blairite cult centrist labour party members who say they agree with it all. This isn't a specifically tory problem.
Anyway to get back onto the thread's topic..... I see that Starmer has been busy tackling that thorny issue of fighting the members of his own party :
iNews: Christmas drinks row latest in Labour stand-off between Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/christmas-drinks-row-latest-labour-stand-off-between-keir-starmer-and-angela-rayner-1328697
You have got to hand it to geezer.....he is a fighter.
Although obviously he would rather not fight the Tories when fighting members of his own party is much more likely to meet with the approval of the right-wing press.
This isn’t a specifically tory problem.
Absolutely. They’ve been much better at capitalising on it, but not the only ones to try when it comes to all UK parties.
Although obviously he would rather not fight the Tories
Well, that’s obviously not true, I heard him trying to do so at PMQs today.
when fighting members of his own party
On and on it goes.
Press love to focus on eternal internal rifts in the party, it’s great stuff for them. The Tories love it as well of course (the PM brought this example up when not answering a question at PMQs). An endless supply of stories that help with the “can’t even run their party, so can’t be trusted with the country” feeling at large in the country. The idea that any Labour leader can end this pattern is laughable. It always dominates the narrative when the Tories start to look like they are on rocky ground. It’s grounded in truth, of course, but it’ll never end. Moving Starmer on (and I think he should be moved on) won’t end it. The next leader will face the same. It’s too useful a tool to beat Labour with, and there always people in Labour and close to it willing to help the Tories and the media focus on it when it’s needed.
Well, that’s obviously not true, I heard him trying to do so at PMQs today.
It is very obviously true. Starmer clearly feels uncomfortable attacking the Tories otherwise he would be doing it on a daily basis, not restricting to when he has no choice such as PMQs.
In contrast he seems to absolutely relish attacking and taking disciplinary action against Labour Party members.
I can't recall any Labour leader ever taking so much effort in attacking and discipling members of his own party. He obviously has issues as leader understanding who the enemy is.
It always dominates the narrative when the Tories start to look like they are on rocky ground.
So it's all the Tory Party's fault?
You do realise that my link wasn't from a particularly right-wing source? I don't think any of the Tory papers have picked up the story.
So I still want to see examples of the bogeyman that Scotland has that means that scottish politicians do not have to play the race card. come on - several have you have said it so you must have some evidence?
So I still want to see examples of the bogeyman that Scotland has that means that scottish politicians do not have to play the race card.
Just look at your own quotes "Westminster" this and "Home office" that. I am not sure how you can be blind to how convenient it is for the SNP to have the UK government to blame in the same way the tories blame the EU.
The next leader will face the same
I guess it depends if they deliberately blank their deputy.
He does seem rather more interested in purging the unbelievers than in anything more useful.
Just look at your own quotes “Westminster” this and “Home office” that. I am not sure how you can be blind to how convenient it is for the SNP to have the UK government to blame in the same way the tories blame the EU.
And that has what to do with anti immigrant rhetoric? come on - lets see this evidence of the scottish political spectrum ( not just SNP) using a bogeyman that takes the place of anti immigrant rhetoric
Are you really trying to claim that scottish labour, Scottish greens, Scottish liberal democrats and Scottish tories blame the english in the same way that westminster parties use anti immigrant rhetoric?
Calling out Westminster parliament for decisions taken there is not a parallel with anti immigrant rhetoric
Maybe one or two. Thing is TJ, you live in Edinburgh – which is basically England. 😉
~we are not that bad - we even had a couple of fifers on the staff . Proper multicultural
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1466117348109299715?t=hf-6IUeEbqeTYwySfXK5nA&s=19
This one is fascinating.
On a simple level the chart appears to expand and contract in synch with various covid restrictions / government making decisions.
(Of course there are way more dynamics than that!)
Old article but highly pertinent to our current situation IMO. Available in audio podcast form also.
I would definitely put Johnson's government into this category. Hard right on culture wars/immigration while taking the most popular parts of left wing policies mostly on economics. Happening all over Europe and highly successful.
They can not only claim to be sticking up for traditional Christian family values but also defending liberal values against the evil fascist muslims.
They can not only claim to be sticking up for traditional Christian family values
Saying this about a government led by Boris just shows you are making up the narrative, or do you think traditional Christian family values include divorce, multiple affairs, multiple children outside the main relationships etc etc
What makes it more comical is that it's immigration is importing people who are more religious than the host population whether they be from Europe, Africa, middle East or South Asia. The collapse of the CofE is matched by the rise of other religions/ denominations with ever increasing congregations regularly attending.
Saying this about a government led by Boris just shows you are making up the narrative, or do you think traditional Christian family values include divorce, multiple affairs, multiple children outside the main relationships etc etc
And yet he is still very popular with people who would identify them as socially conservative Christians. I'm not making up any narrative, what a weird thing to say. He is quite clearly part of the trend outlined in the article. Or did you not read it but decided to argue anyway?
What makes it more comical is that it’s immigration is importing people who are more religious than the host population
Much of the Brexit related immigration fear stoking was around Turkey supposedly joining the EU (ironically with Johnson' background). In case you didn't notice, they're mostly not Christian there.
You re bang on right Grum
Hard right on culture wars/immigration
Have you got any numbers? For example how much immigration has been restricted compared to the last Labour government, would provide a reasonable comparison.
Also perhaps the comparison of the present cabinet in relation to cultural diversity and previous Labour cabinets, or maybe cabinets in other western governments.
I'm asking because I'm not seeing this far-right character in terms of culture and immigration. And certainly compared to the islamophobic "centrist" government of France, for example, the UK government seems quite tolerant.
Really Ernie? Really?
Yeah really TJ, just give me some figures to make the point.
I get the impression that immigration into the UK at the present time is about the same as when Labour were in government, possibly higher.
This isn't what I would expect from a government that is far-right in terms of culture and immigration.
Also the fact that something like 21% of the cabinet is black or Asian seems seems awkward, especially when as far as I am aware no Labour cabinet has had more than one, maybe two, black or Asian ministers.
Edit : And since this thread is suppose to be about Starmer what has he had to say about the alleged far-right character of this government's cultural and immigration policies?
Speeches given or articles Starmer has written condemning far-right government policies?
I'm not arguing Johnson is the UK's Marine Le Pen but his Tory party is basically the Brexit party now as a response to haemorrhaging Tory votes to UKIP.
They aren't 'the far right' but they have taken on aspects of the rhetoric and tactics of the far right. I'm not sure any of the current government have any kind of ideology really other than 'make money for me and my friends'.
Whaboutery regarding the Labour party 20 years ago isn't particularly relevant AFAICS but you'll not find me defending them.
Also the fact that something like 21% of the cabinet is black or Asian seems seems awkward
It's a useful shield to have ethnic minority ministers to push your racist rhetoric - as you've so neatly demonstrated.
Though there's probably a certain twisted kind of de-meritocracy involved where if you slavishly pledge allegiance to the Brexit cult then it doesn't matter who you are.
Whaboutery regarding the Labour party
This thread is supposed to be about Starmer.
Plus of course if the far-right label can be applied to the Tories because of their immigration policies then presumably the same far-right label can be applied to the Labour Party, if there is no difference in their immigration policies.
If the Labour Party is also a far-right party I think we ought to be told.
I get the impression that immigration into the UK at the present time is about the same as when Labour were in government, possibly higher.
Wrong by a long way - now that really does suprise me that you would be so ill informed onthis one seeing as you are anti immigration. I have always been suprised at y0ur deference to this bunch of tories but you are usually well informed
https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/net-uk-immigration-fell-by-88-in-2020/
Just the headline - I didn't read the article but its been all over the news
Immigration has collapsed
Then you need to look at refugee numbers - we take a tiny % of all refugees, make a huge fuss about it, deport them illegally, create a kafkaesque system whereby its impossible for them to use the system (many shipped to glasgow with no recourse to [public funds but appeals that have to be attended are held in Liverpool - how are they supposed to get there). then we have the door lock changing evictions attempted in glasgow on home office orders to put these people on the street
then you need to look at the actions of patel with the illegal pushback,. then look to the Windrush scandal
Then We have What Baroness Warsi has to say about islamophobia in the tory party and of course the racist statements from Johnson and others
Really Ernie - you are usually well informed .
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/as-net-migration-falls-huge-uncertainty-remains/
The UK offered protection, in the form of asylum, humanitarian protection, alternative forms of leave and resettlement, to 10,725 people (including dependants) in the year ending June 2021, 37% down from the number in the year ending June 2020. This included 661 people granted protection through resettlement schemes, 81% fewer than in the previous year.
Just the headline – I didn’t read the article
Yeah but you must have read the bit that said "in 2020 because of the Covid pandemic and Brexit".
The Tories have been in government for over 10 years, despite grum's apparent claim that it's been 20 years since a Labour government. So why not give figures for the 19 years when there wasn't a global pandemic?
Then We have What Baroness Warsi has to say about islamophobia in the tory party
Next you will give me the shocking news that there are racists in the Tory Party!
Yes it's all very interesting but that isn't what was being discussed. The claim was made that the Tory Party is a far-right party similar to other far-right parties in Europe.
There is plenty of islamophobia in many governing parties in Europe, it doesn't mean that they are all far-right parties.
There is also islamophobia in the Labour Party, and some say anti-Semitism, is Labour also far-right?
Btw you do realise that Warsi is in the Tory Party don't you?
So anyway, what has Starmer got to say about all this?
Who cares? Two cheeks of the same arse. I have had enough of thre labour party in England now as they descend into anti immigrant rhetoric, infighting and general uselessness - to say nothing of the total lack of ethics and shown by the rehabilitation of Cooper. Independence cannot come quickly enough and then little England can be the racist pariah state without dragging Scotland down with it
Starmer did do a good attack line on Johnson not obeying covid rules last christmas today I believe
I find your deference and admiration for the tories quite odd and fascinating tho Ernie. Is it your anti immigrant position blinding you to what they are doing? My enemies enemy is my friend?
Edit - with Cooper back on the front bench expect a ramping up of anti immigrant rhetoric, It utterly disgusts me. It gives succour to racists, legitimises racism and leads to more racist crimes. truely sickening. I expect it from tories but from labour? disgusting
Who cares? Two cheeks of the same arse.
Let me get this straight, you claim that the Tories are a European type far-right party, when I ask you what has the Labour leader to say on the matter, partly because this thread is supposed to be about him, you answer who cares they are two cheeks of the same arse?
Well I certainly care. I wouldn't dismiss a far-right party with political power as unimportant. And if the Labour Party is also guilty of being far-right, which presumably two cheeks same arse suggests it is, then you also can't dismiss that as unimportant, ffs.
The reality is that all these far-right claims are hyperbollock nonsense. Right across Europe the term far-right is used to describe neo-nazi fascist parties such as Golden Dawn in Greece, not Conservative parties.
Describing the Tories as a far-right/fascist party is as daft as Trump supporters calling Joe Biden a communist.
I’m not arguing Johnson is the UK’s Marine Le Pen but his Tory party is basically the Brexit party now as a response to haemorrhaging Tory votes to UKIP.
Except it's not, most of the red wall intake MPs are pretty mainstream and didn't sign up for UKIP
The Brexit boil has been lanced for the Tories, the nutters join Reform, UKIP or some other party or just leave politics.
then you need to look at the actions of patel with the illegal pushback,
How many boats have Border Force attempted to push back?
It's not an illegal action if you aren't doing it.
The UK offered protection, in the form of asylum, humanitarian protection, alternative forms of leave and resettlement, to 10,725 people (including dependants) in the year ending June 2021, 37% down from the number in the year ending June 2020.
The number is clearly dodgy based on the Afghan resettlement alone, nevermind the 20,000 or so have crossed the channel in small boats in 2021. Anyone with an ounce of open-minded curiosity would ask why that number is a lot lower than the numbers coming here especially when repatriation is such a limited number.
But let's face it you hate the country you were born in, you don't understand it, you just see it as some hellhole that is akin to a neo facist state, it's only bad, there are no redeeming features, you see an opportunity to create some kind of utopia by breaking it up and you'll just rant on with the hyperbole turned up to eleven in some hope that if you shout it loud enough it will happen.
As for EU immigration policy I think you are behind the curve
https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/brussels-playbook/fortress-europe-weakens-asylum-rights-holding-out-for-a-hera-statues-of-limitation/
If your point is that it didn't start with Johnson then I'm right there with you.
Not before time, the European Parliament has voted to enact disciplinary action against Hungary’s authoritarian, anti-Semitic, Islamophobic government. The motion was passed by 448-197 votes and backed by all major centre-right parties with one exception: the British Conservative Party.
Tory MEPs were whipped to oppose action against Viktor Orbán’s self-described “illiberal democracy”, which has waged an anti-Semitic campaign against George Soros and strangled Hungary’s free press, with only two out of 19 Conservatives refusing to do so. This puts Theresa May’s party in the same company as the far-right Sweden Democrats (a party with neo-Nazi roots), Marine Le Pen’s National Rally, Italy’s League, and Poland’s anti-Semitic Law and Justice Party.
May, who yesterday denounced Labour as “institutionally racist” at Prime Minister’s Questions, was said by No 10 to have been unaware of her party’s stance (“we weren’t consulted in advance”). The Jewish Board of Deputies president, Marie van der Zyl said in response: “I note with disappointment that Conservative Party MEPs have voted in defence of Hungary’s populist, right-wing government of Viktor Orban.
“As we have stated previously, we are very alarmed by the messages at the heart of Orban’s election campaign, including his comments about ‘Muslim invaders’, calling migrants poison, and the vivid anti-Semitism in the relentless campaign against Jewish philanthropist George Soros.”
But the surprise is that anyone should be surprised. For nearly a decade, largely unreported by the media, the Conservatives have unashamedly aligned themselves with Europe’s far right.
From New Statesman ^^^
But yeah, let's pretend this isn't happening and talk about David Blunkett being right-wing 20 years ago.
Ernie - I find your defense of the tories really rather odd. Why you pretend they have not been moving further and further right and now sit on the far right of european politics I don't understand. anti Immigrant, racist, and veering towards fascism
But let’s face it you hate the country you were born in, you don’t understand it, you just see it as some hellhole that is akin to a neo facist state, it’s only bad, there are no redeeming features, you see an opportunity to create some kind of utopia by breaking it up
Laughable really but thats about the level of political discourse I would expect from you - nasty, name calling and vindictive
NO - I hate the political leadership of all parties bar the greens who are chasing each other further and further to the right and who along with the media are poisoning political discourse
I don't want to break up any country. I want the end of a union of countries that no longer works for a large part of its citizens. Scotland is being badly damaged by being dragged along with England
AS I have said before I want to live in a social democratic state like the nordic countries and the low countries. My personal preference is for a federal UK but the only way I can see me getting the sort of governments I like and that would actually serve the needs of the people is scots independence. I am pragmatic on this not ideological
Presumably Ernie is also fine with the government plans to physically push back the boats of migrants/refugees/asylum seekers, and effectively remove their legal right to try and claim asylum.
Nothing far right about that is there
A suite of new laws proposed by the government would criminalise small boat crossings by making it an offence to enter the UK without official permission.
The Nationality and Borders Bill would also create partial legal immunity for Border Force officials in the event that pushbacks cause migrants to drown.
Oh - and ever rising corruption as well in the tory government and acceptance of this from labour as shown by the promotion of Cooper. another one who is only in politics to get rich
Final point Ernie - pre brexit the tories sat in the far right grouping in the european parliament along with other far right parties not the centre right grouping where the majority of right wing parties sat.
disabled transsexuals in the Gaza Strip…
Mark Francois couldn't have said it better.
Yvette Cooper was terrible in the Labour leadership election and chucked all her toys out of the pram when JC won the thing. Unforgivable afaic.
If your point is that it didn’t start with Johnson then I’m right there with you.
So you are claiming that the former Conservative government of Theresa May was a far-right BNP style fascist government, based on a quote from the New Statesman.
Other than that we would not have noticed. In fact according to your New Statesman quote even Theresa May herself hadn't noticed ;
May, who yesterday denounced Labour as “institutionally racist” at Prime Minister’s Questions, was said by No 10 to have been unaware of her party’s stance
And she in fact ordered them not to support Hungary's far right government :
Any other proof that we had a far-right government before Johnson that no one had noticed? Maybe a list of government policies which were identical to Hungary's far-right government? What were the immigration numbers under Theresa May's far-right government compared to pre-fascist days?
Btw I will remind you that during Ted Heath's government, which was the most left-wing Tory government of the last 50 years, there was widespread support in the Tory Party for the white supremacist governments of Rhodesia and South Africa, many Tory MPs unashamedly backed them. It was also during the time of Ted Heath's leadership that Enoch Powell made his infamous "rivers of blood" speech.
I have never heard of Ted Heath's government bring described as far-right. Perhaps it is because the New Statesman never got round to writing an article informing people?
But let’s face it you hate the country you were born in
What a strange comment. Like we're supposed to love the government that rules over us just because of the accident of where you were born? I don't know abouot TJ, but for the record yes I hate the 'country' (or rather the state) I was born into. Over the past couple of centuries that state has murdered millions, pillaged foreign countries, and exploited the people it rules over to feather the nests and egos of the tiny number of people at the top who operate it. Yes every now and again it throws a few scraps to the masses in the form of the NHS and welfare benefits, but only after huge sacrifices have been made by the people to gain them through bitter struggle. The british state is historically, and remains to this day, a hugely malign and evil force which does far more harm to the world than good to further the interests of a tiny number of rich and powerful people. And you want me to like it?
Daz, photographed earlier today on his weekly pilgrimage to Buckingham Palace…
Any other proof that we had a far-right government
I specifically said I don't think it is/was a far right government but it had tendencies in that direction and uses some of the same tactics/dehumanising language etc - so maybe give up on the particular straw man?
What I said as well Grum but apparently I called the fascist when i actually said veering towards
I'm glad labour are holding them on this, but the effort is a bit cheesey
https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1466396157039546369?t=nTAp39tGrScp0ExvC0Se3Q&s=19
I’m glad labour are holding them on this, but the effort is a bit cheesey
Yikes, try 'laboured' (if you'll excuse the pun).
I think Private Eye liked to hold parties to account for their use of expensive advertising agencies, but a lot of the memes coming out of Labour HQ recently seem a bit strained, it feels like they should be able to come up with better than that ^