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Are you seriously suggesting that the Tory Party and Labour Party don’t serve different class interests?!
Is labour the party of the metropolitan liberal elite class?
Do you think that it is just a really weird and unexplained mystery why almost all former Eton College students who decide to enter politics join the Tory Party and very few join the Labour Party?
You really think that class doesn’t come into it?
Class is a legacy factor, has labour lost a lot of it's traditional areas because it represents the class based issues or because it stopped?
Perhaps it’s just down to much better education that makes them decide to join the Tory Party rather than Labour?
Strange hypothesis since academics are predominantly left wing
And why are you pretending that because some social mobility exists it somehow signifies that we live in a classless society?
No we don't, social selection does exist, I'll never be upper class, you could argue new classes exist, the new money class, the underclass, the Islington class etc
And no, I don’t think Mike Ashley is working-class.
Does the dissonance make your teeth itch? (I'm still clueless other than his classlessness)
The definition relies on things such as economic power and the person’s role in production, services, etc, not the way they speak or whether they prefer lager.
Nothing to do with their parents occupations, upbringing, area, education, outside toilet?
Does the dissonance make your teeth itch?
No
Even captain sensible is starting to look appealing to some 😳
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1436767684549611521?s=19
We haven't even been properly hit by inflation and supply chain shortages yet, not to mention the winter flu surge
Johnson wants to frame the next GE around brexit? If he's got any sense hell be making sure supply chain issues don't ruin Xmas for people or he's going to be in trouble.
Brexit was always going to lead to negative consequences, especially short term, we've been warned for many months that government wasn't prepared for it in earnest.
Fu enforcement of NI protocol has been deferred again, but by 2022 it will be in full. From next summer UK holiday makers will face new visa rules & a fee for EU holidays, not to mention all carriers charging for roaming again. And 2022 a lot of people will be looking for a foreign holiday
For Starmer its important he doesn't say 'I told you so' or those red wall voters will stay away
Wow, I never thought you would miss the point as spectacularly as that BnD.
I say :
Do you think that it is just a really weird and unexplained mystery why almost all former Eton College students who decide to enter politics join the Tory Party and very few join the Labour Party?
And you respond by providing a link which refers to a Labour supporter going to Eton. Did you really not understand what I meant by "very few"?
Explain to me why so many who want to enter politics join the Tories. Or is it just an unexplained mystery?
Btw Tam Dalyell is a much better example of an Eton educated Labour politician.
You ask "Is labour the party of the metropolitan liberal elite class?". What if it is? How does that challenge my claim that Tories and Labour represent different classes?
Metropolitan liberal elite isn't actually a recognised socio-economic class, as far as I'm aware, but even if it is how does you making the association between it and the Labour Party challenge my claim that political parties represent different classes? You appear to be simply re-enforcing my claim by giving an example.
And if you think Mike Ashley doesn't represent a member of a ruling big business class because as a child he had an outside toilet then I frankly don't know where to begin.
I look forward to you correcting anyone who refers to Johnson as a brexiteer and pointing out that he is a Remainer, just like you.
You’re missing the point completely
He’s neither a Brexiteer or a remainer. He couldn’t care less. It’s served it’s purpose now and whatever happens now won’t effect him. Brexit got him the top job. That’s all that matters
Johnson has no belief in anything other than himself. No ideology. Nothing. An empty vessel of nothing but narcissism
He creates the conflict, then all that matters is which position to take to further his own interests
With Brexit he helped create virtually a 50/50 split which is the holy grail for a shameless opportunist like him.
I frankly don’t know where to begin
It's difficult to discuss seriously with such utter confusion. I'm surprised Hyacinth Bucket didn't get a mention.
Even captain sensible is starting to look appealing to some 😳
We haven’t even been properly hit by inflation and supply chain shortages yet, not to mention the winter flu surge
Yes, the longer it is till the next election the worse it will be for Johnson as a number of voters will realise that what he is doing and saying is BS and not fixing anything and not making anything better. The question is how many will work that out and how many will continue to think "well, the Labour party would be doing even worse" plus I won't lose my house when I need care now.
He’s no more a believer in Brexit than I am. It just suited his agenda
And it was known very publicly at the time that he was spinning a coin on whether to side with remain or leave. That doesn't sound like a committed remainer or leaver but someone who was weighing up which would benefit themselves the most. Looks like he chose the right side...
Johnson has no belief in anything other than himself. No ideology. Nothing. An empty vessel of nothing but narcissism
Well I'm glad to see that you are finally agreeing with me binners..... it's given me the warm fuzzies 😊
I have been saying since Johnson became Tory leader that he isn't really a politician just an attention-seeking clown who uses politics as a vehicle for his act.
I have also been saying that for those reasons he has no ideological commitment which means that he can pursue whatever he feels serves his personal best interests.
The consequence of that has led him to a position which is to left of Thatcher. He knows that austerity is not currently a vote winner, people are fed up with it, they want better services.
Furthermore without the baggage of ideological commitment he is probably smart enough not to believe the faith-based myth that neoliberalism provides economic stability and that any economic crises can be passed off as merely "adjustments".
He also knows that he will be long gone if any shit hits the fan.
However your reaction to my suggestion was ridicule and you mockingly claimed that I had fallen for a Tory/Johnson con. All Tories PMs were the same, you declared, and Johnson was not appreciably different to Thatcher. I think you might have even suggested that he was more right-wing than Thatcher.
(I am assuming that you don't think that Thatcher had 'no belief in anything other than herself. No ideology. Nothing.')
Welcome aboard.
I think you might have even suggested that he was more right-wing than Thatcher
Certainly not economically. He absolutely loves chucking taxpayers money around. Particularly in the direction of his mates
But Brexit is a right-wing political project that Thatcher would have baulked at. I know she loved a bit of flag-waving herself, but it was mainly posturing. Do you not think she'd have been absolutely horrified by the idea of erecting needless barriers to trade with our nearest neighbours? She was passionate about the single market and seemless trade. Boris should be too if he was a 'proper' Tory, but instead has put a bomb underneath all that for the sake of blue passports and a route into Downing Street
Certainly not economically.
Good to hear you confirm that.
So you think Johnson is possibly more right-wing than Thatcher on social issues? Have you got any examples of legislation which represents a more right-wing and reactionary position than Section 28?
And yes I agree with you, Thatcher was totally committed to the EU.
The “class war” is diminishing in importance, the left’s adherence to it’s doctrines part of the problems labour has
Point proved, the left fighting yesterday’s battles. What class is Mike Ashley? What class is Carol Kane of Boo Hoo?
The left are fighting the old class war not understanding that it’s all moved on,
social selection does exist, I’ll never be upper class, you could argue new classes exist, the new money class, the underclass, the Islington class etc
I don't understand this; so you're saying that 'class' doesn't matter, then you're saying it is just as real as it ever was?
I'm 'middle class'. But I grew up on a council estate, and was most definitely from 'working class' roots. So there is at least some limited social mobility. But class still very much exists, and is at the core of British politics. This is what those on the left are actually fighting against, rather than the imagined battle you seem to think they are waging. Probably because you don't actually know any real 'lefties', and simply make up a mental image of them based on stereotypes and caricatures.
the Islington class
I've seen this term badied about a bit on here, and I don't think those that refer to the 'Islington class' actually know what it means; the term 'the Islington Set' was coined in the 90s, and referred to Blair and his cronies, who lived in big, expensive town houses around the Angel, Canonbury and Highbury areas.
I think some of you desperately want to put Corbyn in with that 'set'. He most definitely isn't part of that, nowhere near it. He lives in a far less 'desirable' part of the borough. Starmer's house is worth approaching two million quid; Corbyn's is ex-local authority. Just to put that bit straight, so you understand that the 'Islington' thing was actually all about Blair. Awkward, I know, but there it is.
Have you got any examples of legislation which represents a more right-wing and reactionary position than Section 28?
How about everything Priti Patel has ever said or done?
Though as far as I know Boris hasn't yet enacted any specific legislation against the 'tank-topped bum-boys' who he obviously has enormous respect for
Certainly not economically. He absolutely loves chucking taxpayers money around.
Thatcher burnt through a lot of taxpayers money for her projects. The massive increase in VAT is often forgotten as was the all the north sea oil money which she burnt through.
Have you got any examples of legislation which represents a more right-wing and reactionary position than Section 28?
The proposed Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill is pretty terrifying when you examine it closely:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/policing-bill-2021-data-surveillance-b1918664.html
He lives in a far less ‘desirable’ part of the borough
If you've live in the shitty end of Halifax, the finer details of the geography of the boroughs of London and their impact of house prices are immaterial, if you live in Islington, to those folks, you are by default; rich beyond the dream of Avarice. On the doorstep, Corbyn was "another London politician" with no connection to the poor areas like Bradshaw or Pellon. I don't think I'm "desperate" to label any Labour politician, it was just the reality of the North/South divide as it exists for these folk, on education, ambition, attainment, and outlook.
As for the class question: To my mind there are the Aristos and those that support them, and then there's the rest of us. That "the rest of us" can't agree a course of action amongst ourselves has been to the benefit of Aristos since the early middle ages onwards.
If you’ve live in the shitty end of Halifax
What if you live in the nice end of Wilmslow or Harrogate?
On the doorstep, Corbyn was “another London politician” with no connection to the poor areas like Bradshaw or Pellon
Blair was MP for Sedgefield; lived in Islington. The Islington slur is all about Blair; applying it to Corbyn is stupid. He's as far removed from the Islington Set as any of us.
The proposed Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill is pretty terrifying when you examine it closely:
Indeed. And then we can get on to the current voter ID proposals which are the most brazen assault on certain specific groups to deprive them of their right to vote. Thats pretty right wing, bordering on fascism
He’s as far removed from the Islington Set as any of us.
When your outlook is "Folk from Sowerby Bridge are the Super Rich" then Islington or London in general is so far removed from your world, you may as well be from another planet. It not necessarily about Corbyn per se, it's just how these folk (and millions like them in the conurbation that stretches from Hull to Warrington along the M62 think) for them London is just Money, and the folk from there cannot possible understand their lives.
Quibbling that Corbyn is from a less well off bit is well into Angels on pinhead stuff...It's like saying OK, he's got a Ferrari, but it's in one of the stock colours...
To my mind there are the Aristos and those that support them, and then there’s the rest of us.
This. The greatest trick the elite play is convincing 'middle class' people that they are better than their working class neighbours. Most middle class people are still mostly working class, and rely on selling their labour to survive. They have far more in common with a homeless person or minimum wage gig worker than the millionaire classes who don't need to work. It always makes me laugh when I hear people on decent salaries in professional jobs deluding themselves about their social and economic status.
Class - there are many different definitions - ( correct me if I am wrong Ernie) but the marxist definition is all about your relationship to the means of production - Ie Ashley owns a series of companies - he is bourgeoisie. If you only have your labour to sell you are proletariat
Or you can have the socioeconomic class divisions if you prefer
Anyone who thinks class does not matter in the UK today has their head in the sand. Its probably more important after years of right wing misrule. It defines everything from how long you live to how well off you are in retirement to how well your kids do at school
Anyone who thinks class does not matter in the UK today has their head in the sand.
I don't think anyone has said that. Some have said that Labour can't rely on fighting a class war to get working class voters on side and be in a position to make changes for the better for them. I don't know. I do know that I would like Labour to be a government for all, which absolutely includes shifting tax and spend policy to benefit those that live paycheck to paycheck rather than those who make money with their money. It needs to explain why that would make this a better country for everyone to live in, from the poorest to the richest.
Though as far as I know Boris hasn’t yet enacted any specific legislation against the ‘tank-topped bum-boys’ who he obviously has enormous respect for
Which contrasts with Thatcher who was indeed responsible for anti-gay legislation, and which was left in place by John Major.
In the absent of you finding any legislation which Johnson is responsible for that is more reactionary than anything Thatcher brought in, I think it is fair to say that Johnson wasn't as right-wing as Thatcher on social issues too.
Btw tasteless and stupid jokes don't count. Johnson might think he is really funny comparing Muslim women in burkas with letterboxes but he hasn't even hinted at banning the burka, unlike "centrist" politicians in countries such France who are so appallingly islamophobic that government ministers applied concerted pressure on Decathlon until they agreed to stop selling sports hijabs.
Sending gay people back to countries where they face torture and death doesn't count I suppose.
I think it is fair to say that Johnson wasn’t as right-wing as Thatcher on social issues too.
Thatcher was right wing through and through, Johnson blows hot and cold. Just watch out when he is blowing hot...
Class exists but it no longer a simple 3 layer problem it's a series of more complex groupings with barriers to entry which help define them. Arguably you can occupy more than one and move in a limited way between them but there are a few which are essentially are only inherited. The lack of clarity makes "class war" meaningless to most. Example, grouse shooting, a self made humble roots businessman buys a grouse moor and joins the shooting and fishing fraternity. He may behave as upper class inherited landowner but he's not one, he grew up on a council estate, he'll always be new money.
If you start to use the Marxist definitions good luck with that language on the doorstep
Anyone who thinks class does not matter in the UK today has their head in the sand.
It's always mattered, as it does in most countries, we just have the cultural references. Mention areas of northern France to a Parisian lawyer and watch her nose wrinkle in disgust
Its probably more important after years of right wing misrule.
When was the left wing golden era?
It defines everything from how long you live to how well off you are in retirement to how well your kids do at school
As does where you live, whether you are public sector final salary pensioner, got on the property ladder in the hotspots 50-30 years ago, occupation, etcetera
Have you got any examples of legislation which represents a more right-wing and reactionary position than Section 28?
aren’t they planning on spending £120m demanding everyone show ID when they show up to vote? That seems pretty reactionary to me.
Mention areas of northern France to a Parisian lawyer and watch her nose wrinkle in disgust
Highly recommend watching “Bienvenue chez les Ch'tis”.
aren’t they planning on spending £120m demanding everyone show ID when they show up to vote? That seems pretty reactionary to me.
Next step will be having police doing random ID checks in the street....... Sorry that's France
Sending gay people back to countries where they face torture and death doesn’t count I suppose.
That Johnson is more right-wing than Thatcher on social issues? Absolutely not.
I think some people have a quaint idea of what Thatcher was, as they look back at history through rose-tinted glasses.
Thatcher supported Pol Pot FFS. The Khmer Rouge were able to carry on killing people thanks in part to Thatcher's support. For those who recent history isn't a strong point they killed up to 2 million people. And just how murderous they were had been well-established at the time that Thatcher supported them.
Thatcher supported Pol Pot FFS. The Khmer Rouge were able to carry on killing people thanks in part to Thatcher’s support.
It's shocking, none of the players come out well. The SAS training teams part of the worst aspects. The Vietnamese invasion saved many. It's a sad indictment of the cold war which for many was very "hot".
aren’t they planning on spending £120m demanding everyone show ID when they show up to vote? That seems pretty reactionary to me.
Not really. There have been 3 whole convictions for voter fraud in the last few years. So 40 million quid per conviction is a perfectly proportionate reaction to the threat posed.
It's definitely not targeted to stop specific groups of individuals from voting. Not a bit of it.
Thatcher felt a close affinity with her chum Augusto Pinochet, I think they shared similar opinions on social issues.
Edit : And economic issues.
It’s definitely not targeted to stop specific groups of individuals from voting. Not a bit of it.
What do you think Thatcher's abolition of the GLC was about binners?
Edit : You really need to stop this ridiculous conclusion that because Johnson is a terrible person he must worse than Thatcher.
Johnson is just as bad as Thatcher, his Brexit big boy pants just give him a get out of jail free card with an awfully large share of UK voters, as he makes their lot worse with every month he stays in power. We're only on year 3 don't forget. If we get to year 11, you can compare their legacies better then.
He has not been worse than Thatcher yet but could be if he feels it would provide a benefit to him.
Johnson is just as bad as Thatcher
Well his status seems to have improved on this thread now. He's gone from worse than Thatcher to as bad as Thatcher. Or perhaps Thatcher's status has worsened?
The issue isn't some bollocks about who is worse. The issue is that he is very clearly different to Thatcher, and that needs to be recognised so that the Tories can be dealt with on the basis of what they are now, not what they were years ago. Who is worse is completely irrelevant. Unless of course you are a Tory.
Of course he's different to Thatcher. The claim was that he was moving the party to the left... based on him giving tax breaks to the rich, tax rises and benefit cuts to the poor, cutting education, cutting local authority funding in the areas most in need, and handing over billions to private companies without ensuring value for money on what they deliver.
Edit : You really need to stop this ridiculous conclusion that because Johnson is a terrible person he must worse than Thatcher.
Why? How do you define 'worse'?
Having been brought up in the 80's in the north west of England, I loathe that bloody woman with every fibre of my being, because every day I saw the misery she wilfully inflicted on those people around me.
But I also have a slight grudging respect for the fact that she really passionately believed what she was doing was necessary and she clearly said what she was going to do, then did it (we won't get into the fact she went about it in the most callous, uncaring and destructive way imaginable). There was at least a defined purpose for it all, however much i disagreed with it.
I loath Boris Johnson because he believes in absolutely nothing other than his own self-advancement. Theres nothing of any more substance than that. And on the alter of that self-advancement absolutely anything and everything can and must be sacrificed. I have not even an ounce of respect for Johnson. I view him with complete and utter contempt. If he thought feeding babies into a wood-chipper on live TV would win him some votes, he'd do it without a seconds hesitation.
Anyway... you can't compare the two because Thatcher was a Tory, Johnson isn't. He's something far, far worse
Though you seem to like him
Oddly enough, I met members of the Welsh Guards in Harare's Monomotapa hotel in 1983 who'd be sent out there to 'advise' Mugabe's Fifth Brigade (SAS types).
The claim was that he was moving the party to the left
Made by numerous commentators, from the lefty Guardian and FT, to the raging right-wing Daily Mail and Telegraph. It is widely held view which is bizarrely ridiculed on stw
Presumably because we all hate Johnson so much that it is inconceivable to entertained the suggestion that he has shifted his party to the left.
There is no doubt that Johnson has embraced a great deal of Keynesian economics, whatever his ****ing motives, and there is also no doubt that Keynesian economics is to the left of Thatcherism.
It wasn't me that defined Keynesian economics as social-democratic and Thatcherism as right-wing, but those are the facts.
If you are not happy then perhaps start a movement to redefine what right-wing and left-wing means.
Moved the party to the left economically maybe - but way to the right socially drifting into neo facism
Though you seem to like him
I can't believe that a grown man comes out with attempted put-downs of primary school quality.
Not even sixth form quality.
If you are not happy then perhaps start a movement to redefine what right-wing and left-wing means.
It's increasingly irrelevant. Johnsons policies are a pick and mix of whatever suits him at any given moment. Thats why he's so difficult to oppose. It's like trying to nail down blancmange. His own backbenchers can't even fathom out what he is, never mind the opposition.
He enabled the most right-wing idealogical project this country has ever seen, then promptly started throwing (taxpayers) money around like a pissed sailor on shore leave.
Moved the party to the left economically maybe
Yeah that seems to have been rather temporary
https://www.ft.com/content/ea096afa-7747-4763-811f-46e79dd41990
Looking pretty RW to me
And of course Kimbers misses the point.
Yeah that seems to have been rather temporary
So now the argument is whether it's temporary or permanent?
This argument is moving faster than I can keep up.
that he has shifted his party to the left.
Economically he may have shifted his Tories to the left, but only I think because of the nature of the current pandemic gave him and Sunak little to no room to do much else, but otherwise with cancel-culture, Immigration, voter registration, cronyism, and so on, he's moved them to the populist right into space previously occupied by UKIP as far as I can tell.
I'm not really interested if that makes him better or worse than a woman who was PM over 30 years ago.
So anyway back on topic, how is Starmer doing, is he going to continue with the strategy of deafening silence which has resulted in a stunning 2% lead in one poll?
Or is he perhaps going to join in with the Richard Nixon/Boris Johnson battlecry : "We are all Keynesians now" ?
but way to the right socially drifting into neo facism
Not really, but keep up the hyperbole
As for the drills, I'm surprised they didn't put their own drone up to get footage for every news outlet in the world.
Having said that, they could be getting trained by the Italians or Greeks, those nice EU countries that have been doing it for ages.
It's like watercannon and CS gas, common in the EU, never going to be seen in Britain. But you know, neo facist police state etc etc
Other countries use heavy handed border and crowd control non shocker.
The shocking aspect is how it's not confined to just neo-fascist UK.
Anyway back on topic, what is Starmer's plan for tackling rising fascism in the UK?
It’s like watercannon and CS gas, common in the EU, never going to be seen in Britain.
Possibly not the best example given Johnson did buy some watercannon before May told him no. So I am not sure where your confidence comes from. If we have some major riots next year for whatever reason I really wouldnt rule out the NI ones being borrowed.
Anyway back on topic, what is Starmer’s plan for tackling rising fascism in the UK?
We might find out in a week or so when he publishes his essay. So best to talk about Johnson and co a bit longer whilst we are waiting.
Possibly not the best example given Johnson did buy some watercannon before May told him no.
It typified him in so many ways. Didn't do any research beforehand, just went and did it, then had a massive sulk when he wasn't allowed to use his new toys (what do you mean I can't just do whatever I like?!) and it also cost the taxpayer a packet when they all then had to be sold for scrap
Johnsonian
Economically he may have shifted his Tories to the left, but only I think because of the nature of the current pandemic gave him and Sunak little to no room to do much else
Very much this.
I said right at the beginning of the pandemic they would have to spend like no other time.
But in essence they revert to type and let the market offer up the way forward. It's doomed ultimately.
And I don't rule out them using more fiscal measures if things look grave for them.
The difference between Tories and Labour is that the Tories are not coy about doing it. Labour were saddled with their stupid fiscal credibility rule. Which is why we have the back to front economics of either party. Labour don't want to appear they're going to blow loads of money.
Blame Liam Byrne.
I loath Boris Johnson because he believes in absolutely nothing other than his own self-advancement.
And yet you support the rightwing careerists in the labour party who are no different. Your inconsistency knows no limits.
Economically he may have shifted his Tories to the left, but only I think because of the nature of the current pandemic gave him and Sunak little to no room to do much else
I think the reason for that is Boris literally does not give a shit about ideology or anything else. He will do whatever makes him popular with enough people. If we were a socialist country he'd be banging on about socialism. He has no principles at all.
And yet you support the rightwing careerists in the labour party who are no different. Your inconsistency knows no limits..
Seriously mate.. get a grip.
Saying that centrists (boooo... hiss) in the labour party are fundamentally the same as Boris Johnson is an absolutely ludicrous statement
Your inconsistency knows no limits.
Personally I think politicians, commentators and the public "sticking to their opinions" goes a good way to explain the problem we've managed to create in modern politics. It's the only part of life where no one can say "Yep, I was totally wrong about that" and not be made to feel as they're an idiot or a fraud. A little less consistency would probably do everyone some good
Saying that centrists (boooo… hiss) in the labour party are fundamentally the same as Boris Johnson is an absolutely ludicrous statement
They (labour rightwingers that is) have a lack of ideology and prize self-advancement, or winning in other words, over everything else. Sentiments which you express support for on here all the time. How is that different to your stated reasons for hating Johnson?
but way to the right socially drifting into neo facism
Not really, but keep up the hyperbole
Yes really. Gerrymandering, reducing the power of the opposition by restrictive laws, toadying up to neo fascists. Both in the UK and the US under Trump fascism is really really close and the home office under patel is simply fascist.
Yes there are a lot of neofacists in the tory party and they have the upper hand. this is the most divisive nasty racist government in my lifetime. a party that Powell would be proud to be in. a party that jumps to Farages vision.
Call it what it is. centre economic policy ( vaguely) and hard right social policy based on racism class and based around disenfranchisement of many along with the creation of the enemy withing and the big lie - thats facism
Saying that centrists (boooo… hiss) in the labour party are fundamentally the same as Boris Johnson is an absolutely ludicrous statement
Right winger not centrists and remember these folk preferred a tory government to one led by corbyn. Not a cm between them and Johnson. Burnham is the classic example - not an original thought in his head and prepared to make overtly racist statements to get power
Saying that centrists (boooo… hiss) in the labour party are fundamentally the same as Boris Johnson is an absolutely ludicrous statement
Yes you're correct, they're further to the right on economics and much less effective at getting elected.
lets add Kate Hoey and Frank Field into the mix. tories in the labour party ( I do believe both gone now)
Gerrymandering
How?
Are you saying the independent boundary commission isn't
and the home office under patel is simply fascist
Remind me, how is she different to the last umpteen home secretaries?
Call it what it is. centre economic policy ( vaguely) and hard right social policy based on racism class and based around disenfranchisement of many along with the creation of the enemy withing and the big lie – thats facism
Except it isn't
You have IDS advocating to keep the UC £20 uplift
Yes, that IDS
You have what is essentially a open debate and market testing of ideas, it's not pretty but it's working for Johnson.
The voter law is IMHO pointless, but to get a job these days you need photo ID to assist in proving your right to work in this country. We don't have"papers please" in the street like lovely soft cuddly France does. Voter fraud can and does happen in limited ways but as many point out it's a sledgehammer to crack a very small nut
Barnier, remember him as the lovely soft voice of EU reason? This Barnier
https://www.politico.eu/article/france-eu-uk-michel-barnier-election-president/
the creation of the enemy withing
Who are these people who have been blackened with this label?
the big lie
What's the lie?
You are reading far too many Guardian Op-Ed's in your retirement.
It typified him in so many ways. Didn’t do any research beforehand, just went and did it, then had a massive sulk when he wasn’t allowed to use his new toys (what do you mean I can’t just do whatever I like?!)
And yet earlier today you made the claim that as London Mayor Johnson was projecting the image of a liberal.
Arguing in favour of water cannons on the streets of London doesn't sound particularly liberal to me.
I personally think that the most dangerous aspect of Johnson's premiership is his questionable commitment to democracy and human rights.
I don't think he has any. The rights of other people tend not to figure very high on the list of priorities for narcissists.
And yet Labour seems unable or more likely unwilling to tackle him on issues which presumably they consider to be electorally unimportant.
In the case of the overseas operations bill Starmer actually insisted on helping the Tory government by instructing Labour MPs to abstain, and he sacked three of his shadow ministers for having the temerity to vote against a bill designed to protect those guilty of torture and war crimes.
Edit : In a measure of just how rotten the Parliamentary Labour Party is only 14 Labour MPs voted against the bill.
Oh dear - your hard right ideology really does blind you
No the boundary commission are not properly independent but that gerrymandering is mainly votor ID law which is deliberately aimed at disfranchisement of minorities and labour supporters and a new law to impoverish labour by further restrictions on funding
Patel is the only home secretary I have ever heard actually proposing to attack small boats for electoral gain - others have been racist and hostile byut not at her level - deliberatly breaching international law and wanting to make it illegal to save siomeone from drowning to further her racist agenda
No idea what your point about IDS is - refers to nothing I said
The creation of the enemy withing - one word - remoaners. theats the latest enemy within. Classic neo facist tactics. Previously its been muslims and previous to that Irish. also note the attacks on the BBC
the big lie? You need to read up on it. the propaganda coming out of the giovernment fits this perfectly. Just keep ion making the big lie and people start to believe it. 350 million for the NHS? No red tape to get food to NI, no downsides to brexit etc etc
I have been a political geek all my life and this is the most racist divisive and unpleasant government there has been.
They are using classic neo facist techniques.
disenfranchismant, control of propaganda and creation of the enemy within
but to get a job these days you need photo ID to assist in proving your right to work in this country
Only in england. ( and I am not sure even then) You need to declare you are able to work in the UK and have an NI number of get one. No photo ID required
However to rent in england you have to provide proof of residency. Not in Scotland. More neo facist attacks on innocent people.
I'm with TJ. Attacks on the press, human rights lawyers, universities, foreigners, remoaners, jingoism, 'defence of statues', denial of the existence of racism, suggesting offshore immigrant 'processing centres', criminalising protest, bypassing parliament. Just because they're splashing the cash doesn't make them left wing, or even centrist.
Just because they’re splashing the cash doesn’t make them left wing
LOL! Who the hell has said that the Tory Party is left-wing?!?
Can you copy and paste please? Did I miss one of BnD's comments?
Clad TJ is back in this thread. Gets straight to the point rather than playing games.
Ta Kelvin - I am only popping in and out really to laugh at the absurdities
Edit - and to read Ernies takedowns!
and labour supporters
You know that a labour member commonly has to produce photo ID and proof of residence in the constituency to vote on CLP matters?
No photo ID required
What does that make France where police can do random ID checks on the streets??? They'll use water cannons and CS next, oops they already do, no wonder people are fleeing in small boats, even the French think that their ID laws discourage migrants/asylum seekers
Patel is the only home secretary I have ever heard actually proposing to attack small boats for electoral gain –
Possibly trying to deal with the issue of people smugglers launching migrants/asylum seekers in small boats across the channel in large numbers. An issue no other home secretary has faced. So why single out Patel. Why does she trigger you?
deliberatly breaching international law
Have any breaches happened?
and wanting to make it illegal to save siomeone from drowning to further her racist agenda
Citation needed or does she just trigger you? Why is she such a focus for you?
your hard right ideology really does blind you
That's a bit harsh on the Green Party, you do know I occasionally vote green.
the big lie? You need to read up on it.
Is this a version of "do your own research"?
You need to declare you are able to work in the UK and have an NI number of get one. No photo ID required
No, it's a requirement of employing some-one that you check that they have a right to work in the UK, a passport normally suffices, but for EU, EEA and other citizens a residency or indefinite rights to stay. Applies to the whole of the UK, not just England.
I have been a political geek all my life and this is the most racist divisive and unpleasant government there has been
Yet 5 million plus EU citizens have applied for residence, people risk their lives to leave the EU/France in small boats to come here, something doesn't tally
nickc - you do not need PHOTO id. thats B&Ds daftness inventing things to justify the neo facists
Ill just deal with one more
An issue no other home secretary has faced. So why single out Patel.
Utter nonsense - this has been going on for decades and she wanted ( I dunno if it got thru) a law that criminalised anyone who helped them - even if saving them from drowning - a clear breach of international law. also the "turnback" is also in breach of international law aqs is her wish to have offshore internment camps
Triggered? FFS man - can you only think in cliches?