[Closed] Single Tenant World : Landlord wants me to pay for his toilet

Sounds like a load of shit to me.

There are photos of the toilet

THis whole incident is just a flash in the pan.

Hello Dave

You can always go to adjudication under the deposit scheme who will assess the likelihood that this falls under fair wear and tear.

If the toilet bowl in question is already pretty old, then you can argue that, even if you caused the damage, it was through normal use, and the landlord has already had a significant number of years' use of the item, so there's no way you should be paying half the cost of a replacement.

Obviously, if you are an excessively fat knacker, this will be taken into account.

He might be just yanking your chain to see if you're flush with cash.

The letting agency is asking for £273(50% of the total cost) to replace the toilet that has a crack in the bowl.

£546 for replacing a toilet bowl?

I'd suggest he's pulling your pants down and going in dry.

For reference, the last toilet pan I bought ( about two hours ago, I buy quite a lot of toilets ) was  £78.06 ex VAT. ( An Armitage Shanks Sandrigham 21 Close coupled pan with horizontal outlet., if you care)

Doesn't include the cistern or the seat.

A competent DIYer could replace the pan in a couple of hours.  A plumber could do it in two including a read at the paper and a bacon butty.

£546 for replacing a toilet bowl?

My thoughts exactly.

Don't get stressed about it, this sort of thing could send you potty or drive you round the bend.

I'd be incistern on another quote at least.

Were you aware of the crack before you were notified of the charge and if so are you sure it was there when you moved in? Either way though that cost is a joke, that would be what I'd expect the full cost to be (assuming a good brand was used as well).

I do like this bit though:

£96 to repaint a ceiling where my bike stand was

Class 🙂

I would be asking the question: What does he suggest that you did to crack a toilet bowl? crack, but not chip (I assume).

And what more likely: that, or the bowl cracking via wear and tear?

You have no way of proving a negative - but I'd just be asking him to offer a plausible explaination of what you might have done to cause a toilet bowl to crack.

I'm a landlord myself, and I'd be telling them to whistle for it.

but I’d just be asking him to offer a plausible explaination of what you might have done to cause a toilet bowl to crack.

why would he need to? If the bowl was not cracked before the let, why would he need to suggest how it got broken during the let, just that it was broken. The only arguing point would be to show if it was either fair ware and tear or not, not how.

as for £546 for replacing a toilet bowl? theyre having a laugh!

why would he need to suggest how it got broken during the let, just that it was broken. The only arguing point would be to show if it was either fair ware and tear or not, not how

Thats the point.... owner is arguing damage, the OP is arguing wear and tear (on the basis that he didin't do anything to damage it)

thats why I wrote this bit:

You have no way of proving a negative

So the question is: what's more likely? That the Tennant has dropped a lump-hammer in the bowl, which cracked but did not chip the porcelain, and is now lying about it, OR that this is wear and tear.

There is no way of really knowing.... so its about what is the most likely explanation.

From experience, tell them to jog on.

Our last tenants left the flat in an absolute state. So much condensation that every bit of wallpaper had to be replaced, not just the ones the kids had pulled off. The cat they absolutely didn't have, hadn't shed it's hair every****ingwhere (the OH is allergic to cats so that alone made cleaning a misery), and hadn't shredded the carpets when they'd locked it in. They'd kicked all the trim pieces out of the laminate flooring. And left the place generally a mess.

Apparently all wear and tear for 18 months. Some of that stuff had been in for 10 years of us living there and still looked perfectly fine when we moved out!

I'm not sure if it was there when I moved in but I'm hoping the letting agent took good enough photos that show it was, I did know about it before they asked for money though, but since it was small and I hadn't done anything to cause it, I didn't mention it. The rest of the house is in a state anyway.

That's a good point about cracking but not chipping the porcelain, there aren't any chips in there. I think it may be because the toilet is screwed to the floor but the floorboards are mostly wobbly and loose, so it could have stressed the toilet in that way.

I have also complained that the letting agent has done a bad job of assessing for damage, since it was the landlord that found the damage, not them. I have pointed out that if they didn't see it when I checked out, would they have seen it when I checked in?

Thanks also for your comments on the quote, I did think it was steep!

Cheers all for your ascisternce

It is not your liability, I have just replaced a toilet seat as a landlord. Agent confirmed it was my cost despite it being all of 2 years old.

Just write to agent confirming that you are only xx kilos and that you have enjoyed normal use of said toilet. Adjudicator will side with you.

That's bad behaviour from the agent and landlord.

the last toilet pan I bought ( about two hours ago, I buy quite a lot of toilets )

You do know they're multi-use, yeah?

You do know they’re multi-use, yeah?

Not the way I use them.

£546!? Shit a brick!

You can always go to adjudication under the deposit scheme who will assess the likelihood that this falls under fair wear and tear

This! Don't try to fight it on yer own.
It's Leaders isn't it? I know it is. ****ers.

Take a shit in a box and post it to the landlord with a little note asking how he thinks you cracked the pan with one of these?

I have been told by someone with experience that an ice cream tub is good for this and can be left on a sunny windowsill for a day or two before posting.

That’s bad behaviour from the agent and landlord.

Bog standard in their industry.

£546!? Shit a brick!

Maybe that's why it's cracked? Although I would thought the OP would feel one of those passing through 😉

 

Offer to fit it for your landlord as long as he pays you half, so £273 cash. Buy new pan and fit, pocket nearly £200 to put towards bike parts for a couple of hours work

Btw it is really easy I did a whole toilet a couple of months ago, toughest part was getting the silicone perfect

I’ll bet the Op. was a little flushed when the bill came through the post!

Have you done owt to annoy your landlord? Sounds like he is is taking the pi55 with what he want to charge you for a few odd jobs.

If you’d already done the check out with the agent and the damage wasn’t picked up then, how can they/the landlord prove that it didn’t occur afterwards?

To those asking what could possibly break a toilet. I was in a student house a long time ago and one of my friends put a banger down the loo and cracked the bowl. He fixed the bit that blew out with araldite after a quote from a plumber was more than he could afford and at the end of the tenancy the landlord never noticed and we got our deposit back. Hmmmm op your not in Bristol are you?!

We had a cracked toilet bowl in our house. I’m sure someone must have dropped something off the shelf above into it and not mentioned it. It wasn’t just cracked but there was a fairly obvious chip in the middle of the crack that looked like an impact mark. If you had a pan bolted to loose floorboards I can imagine you could crack the pan but you ought to be able to see how the loose boards related to the crack?

What happened to the ceiling and why the need for a clean? I would think it’s more difficult to argue the toilet if there’s already evidence that you haven’t looked after the place.

A plumber could do it in two including a read at the paper and a bacon butty. a comprehensive test drive

Myti - Nope no bangers have been down there!

Burko - the bike rack is one of those floor to ceiling types that pushes up to secure itself. My one has some little rubber pads to give some grip and they have left a faint mark on the paint. I think paying 90% of the cost of redoing the whole ceiling is a bit much but I'm trying to pick my battles.

I've told them that I would rather get the Tenancy Deposit Scheme to adjudicate, so unless the landlord starts being more reasonable I will start a dispute with them. Reading the guidance online I'm pretty confident they would side with me or at least ask me to pay much less than £273.

If you’d already done the check out with the agent and the damage wasn’t picked up then, how can they/the landlord prove that it didn’t occur afterwards?

This. If the agency took the keys without noting the damage the landlord deosn't have a leg to stand on.

If the agency took the keys without noting the damage the landlord doesn't have a pot to pi** in. leg to stand on.

FIFY

I is confused, surely the whole point of a toilet is that you don't want your deposit back.

They're stiffing you for the full amount, not going 50:50.

I had this with a neighboring property once that was let out. We had a leak on a shared roof and agreed to go 50:50...their preferred builder put the wrong invoice through our door with a clear breakdown of materials and labour but when I spoke to them they said it was double.

Good point about the checkout report being done and not noting the damage, I suspect that if the adjudicator saw the report then they would quickly side with me.

Well they dropped the request for me to pay for any of the toilet as soon as I mentioned using the TDS as adjudicators so I don't think they thought they would ever come out on top!

Thanks all for your help

I was in a student house a long time ago and one of my friends put a banger down the loo

took me a while to realise you meant an actual firework there 😆

Well they dropped the request for me to pay for any of the toilet as soon as I mentioned using the TDS as adjudicators so I don’t think they thought they would ever come out on top!

Thanks all for your help

They're already on top because of the cleaning and painting fee. What's the bet that that small mark you left on the ceiling will still be there when the next tenants turn up?

And that the loo will still have a hard-to-spot crack in it...

For reference, the last toilet pan I bought..... An Armitage Shanks Sandrigham 21 Close coupled pan with horizontal outlet.

#humblebrag

Time to row back on your offer to pay for anything else I think!

Can't be arsed to read all this, but I got to martinhutch and the thread ends there. He is bang on the money.
We manage a fair few tenancies and have given up making any claim to the TDS (or equivalent), other than the really bad ones. Unless it is clear cut damage, the landlord will not win. I also agree with the last post. Row back on all non binding agreements to pay anything. Unless they can prove condition when you moved (conclusively and unambiguously) then they will lose in an adjudication process. Thankfully landlords have no power to make demands like this any more, which pisses my boss off no end.
Use the system. DO NOT TAKE ANY SHIT.

Go to a reclamation yard and a pick up a loo for 50 quid, then dump it on him.

Why row back - some of the fees mentioned the OP has already agreed because he caused the damage. Sure, refuse point blank on the bog but why advise him to renage on his repsonsibilities. This whole system is let down only by tosser landlords and tosser tennants. Promoting an arms race of tosser behaviour doesn't really help.

Oh, is this not the lonely hearts thread? As you were...

I am considering whether I should dispute the other costs, the cleaning quote does specifically mention a few things that the check out report confirms were the same as when I checked in.

I don't mind paying for the damage I did to the ceiling but perhaps paying 90% of the cost of repainting the whole thing (when the damage is quite minor) is a bit steep.

I said in an email that I didn't mind paying for the cleaning and repainting but I haven't signed anything so I could dispute the fees via the TDS now...

I said in an email that I didn’t mind paying for the cleaning and repainting but I haven’t signed anything so I could dispute the fees via the TDS now…

Well, after you were so accommodating, they proceeded to take the piss and try to get you to pay to replace the landlord's ageing toilet, so it is only natural to check over the other charges too. 🙂

Perhaps it will make the agent/landlord think twice before trying it on again.

It's important to track the conversations you have with the agency. Keep a solid log

I don’t mind paying for the damage I did to the ceiling but perhaps paying 90% of the cost of repainting the whole thing (when the damage is quite minor) is a bit steep.

If you are happy to pay it (and I wouldn't be), tell them you'll pay it only on receipt of the invoice after the work has been completed.

I've rented for 18 years and move slot with work and in all that time I've had £25 takes from a deposit because I didn't do a good enough job of cleaning the oven.

I think you've screwed up agreeing to any costs unless you've trashed the place. You would probably have got out of all of that.

Offer to send a sample to prove normal usage. Better yet, one a day for a month in non-sequential packaging just to establish an average.

I’ve rented for 18 years and move slot with work and in all that time I’ve had £25 takes from a deposit because I didn’t do a good enough job of cleaning the oven.

Agencies / landlords can be petty and / or chancers. I'm suddenly reminded of the run-in I had with a letting agency a couple of years ago. It's a longish tale but it might provide some amusement.

A friend of mine moved out and they were withholding her deposit due to a number of alleged issues which they wanted to "give her the opportunity" to rectify, which was slightly problematic as by then she was living 200 miles away. For background, we'd spent an entire day cleaning the place before she moved out and had also had a professional cleaner in for some of it.

I offered to intervene, and opened by highlighting to the agency that they were already in breach of the TDS. Long story short, I offered to attend the flat to sort it out, not least because I wanted to verify first-hand what they were claiming.

Following several phone calls, this was their complaint, edited slightly:

We have been in discussion with the Landlord and we would like to give you the opportunity to return to the property to perform a light clean with particular attention to the following:

- Removal of tape from bedroom window and mezzanine Velux window.
- Back of bedroom door (hallway side).
- Window sill tiles in bedroom.
- Kitchen: outside of floor units, sink and draining board, inside oven (rim), fridge and freezer (including removal of food items)
- Bathroom sink
- Ceiling above stairs to mezzanine if possible.
- Removal of any belongings from the common areas if present (hallway, utilities, rubbish disposal)

I replied thusly,

It was agreed [with agent's colleague] that the tape on the window is to be left in place as it’s holding the faulty window closed. (I understand that this was reported to [agent] previously but no remedial action was ever taken.)

The rest of the above list I’ll address on Saturday.

I then went to check the place as above. This was my report back to them.

The bedroom door appeared to have splashes of something on it (tea?) I've cleaned this off.

Additionally, I've removed the half-full toilet roll and kitchen roll we left behind previously, along with the DSL microfilter. I also straightened a picture hook that was crooked. I've left you the crack pipe as it came free with the flat when [tenant] moved in and I'm not touching it.

Now they’ve agreed you aren’t liable for the damage to the toilet take a sledge hammer to it 👍🏼

So it's still not over...

I chose to dispute the £75 cleaning cost and £96 redecoration cost and since then the letting agent has been doing everything they can to try get me to agree to the original costs and not take it to arbitration. I'm not trying to wriggle out of paying everything that I owe but the TDS is there to keep things fair so I don't know why they wouldn't want them involved.

The letting agent has even threatened to add additional costs if I take it to arbitration, which I think is pretty despicable.

I pointed out that if there were other costs then they should have mentioned them in the check out report, I also spoke to the TDS and they can't add more costs now anyway so it wasn't a very good threat. I'll get the TDS to arbitrate and the worst that can happen is I pay the £75 and £96(plus the £100 check out fee).

rant over thanks for reading

Must be worth bringing the letting agent’s threat to add more charges to the attention of the TDS as indicative of their attitude & approach. I foresee a win on all points for you, based on what I’ve read here.
Good luck and well done for not conceding.

That cleaning and decoration cost look ok to me. Which agent is it? The flat below mine got water damage and I got a bill for 500 gbp redecoration, they just sent me a bill.

Anyway, it was the adjacent flat responsible. Agents just fire off bills they arent really bothered who pays. 500 to redecorate a cupboard seemed excessive.

We went through the deposit scheme when our landlord tried to rob money from us for cleaning (despite us leaving him the receipt for the professional cleaners we'd had in when we moved out), a paving slab that was cracked and, most gallingly of all, a new carpet to replace the 20 year old one on the stairs that was now a little dirty.

The deposit scheme took a long time to process the appeal, about 3 months, but they gave us all the money back. They said that if the landlord doesn't have any before photos then they don't have a leg to stand on.

That cleaning and decoration cost look ok to me

It isn't terrible but I still don't want to pay to bring the property into a better state than when I moved in. The check out report says that the ceiling which I marked had defects that had been painted over before, so why do they get to re-paint the whole ceiling at my expense when I cause a small defect?

It's the same with the cleaning, they have charged me for cleaning the interior windows when the check out report says they were dirty when I moved in and dirty when I moved out (although I had cleaned them the day before I left)

I think that I would have bigger fish to flush than this 💩

The check out report says that the ceiling which I marked had defects that had been painted over before, so why do they get to re-paint the whole ceiling at my expense when I cause a small defect?

It’s the same with the cleaning, they have charged me for cleaning the interior windows when the check out report says they were dirty when I moved in and dirty when I moved out (although I had cleaned them the day before I left)

They can't... That's what's known as betterment.

Like if a carpet is ten years old when you move in, and you stain it, they've still had 10 years value out of it and it's already worn and depreciated in value, so can't just charge you full price for a complete new carpet.

the last toilet pan I bought ( about two hours ago, I buy quite a lot of toilets )

You do know they’re multi-use, yeah?

He’s used to replacing the Rolls when the ashtrays full up!