Have far more faith in Starmer than Davis
really depends, Tories are crucifying themselves because they arent being honest with what they want & expect from Brexit
[b]IF[/b] labour were in power would they start being more honest with the nation about what they expect will happen?
I bloody love Marina Hyde! She always nails it!
According to Five Live just now, the letter to get the requisite amount of signatures for a no-confidence motion is presently doing the rounds of Tory MPs
Its unbelievable to even think, but what comes next could be even worse
Should all Remain MPs join the lib Dems?
Is there anything more important in politics at the moment that means you back a party that you disagree with ?
binners - Member
I bloody love Marina Hyde! She always nails it!
some proper LOLs in that article
Should all Remain MPs join the lib Dems?
They could, but they'd be out of a job six weeks later, I suspect.
Its unbelievable to even think, but what comes next could be even worse
Exactly. Much as it pains me to offer any crumb of support to the Maybot, the alternatives are deeply unpalatable. And a change of PM is no quick route to a general election for those who support Labour.
binners - Member
"Yeah, like the massive commitment to the 'Northern Powerhouse' amounted to having a root around the back of the sofa to see what loose change they found. While there are still limitless billions for Crossrail in London, and HS2 which nobody in the north prioritises over our woefully underfunded, Victorian era public transport"
Should be a massive open goal for Labour instead they go on about stopping gentrification FFS! I'd love a bit of gentrification!
IF labour were in power would they start being more honest with the nation about what they expect will happen?
It's a possibility kimbers, but I certainly can't vote for labour while they have such an idiotic policy on brexit, because it's more important than everything else put together over the next year or two.
I've never voted tory or labour.
I live in a safe tory seat with labour a distant second.
Almost thinking of voting labour as I want that **** Grayling to have a little bit of a scare.
The furore over the falling membership and average age of a card holding conservative is food for thought.
Apparently, I'm the first member of my family never to have voted conservative in four generations. My family background is classic middle class Tory, but I'm a member of the Labour Party and have been for some time (thanks Ed!).
seems like Rupert has decided it's time for her to go.
Who's his favourite now? Boris, Gove or Mogg?Klunk - Memberseems like Rupert has decided it's time for her to go.
Whichever he chooses, it's game over.
Seriously though, this idea that the country is in the grip of idiots on either side is more patronising rubbish from the centrist we-know-best types. THM's posts are a classic example.
Best comment today.
I'm getting tired of seeing how the Tories are here and now - screwing everything up but certain posters keep that resorting to 'there are no choices, two bad leaders and parties.'
Admit your own party has more or less destroyed itself through incompetence and being out of touch with the electorate.
From Withnail and I - "What absolute twaddle."
Now stand aside and let Jezza give it a shot. 😉
Who's his favourite now? Boris, Gove or Mogg?
my guess is Boris to wield the knife Mogg for Ruperts hard brexit
I'm getting tired of seeing how the Tories are here and now - screwing everything up but certain posters keep that resorting to 'there are no choices, two bad leaders and parties.'
The choice appears to be which version of the 70s we're heading back to. Hey ho.
The choice appears to be which version of the 70s we're heading back to. Hey ho.
I loved the 70's. The version I want is where people were at their happiest and equality was at it's best.
Equality has never been as good since and equality leads to happiness.
Yes, something has to give for that to happen - I am fine with that.
Tories too scared of a messy leadership contest precipitating another GE
+
No one really wants to be Brexit PM, only Borris wants that poisoned chalice but most of the other MPs think hes a ....
May will be 'permitted' to stay until the next GE or the stress gives her a genuine health scare
The choice appears to be which version of the 70s we're heading back to.
The 1970's or the 1870's.
Apart from the fact that most of labour policies are actually in line with modern socially fair democracies, it's just a tory boy fabrication to label them as dinosaurs to misdirect from their own "Victorian mill owner" oppression.
Wow dazh, you are on a roll here
Seriously though, this idea that the country is in the grip of idiots on either side is more patronising rubbish from the centrist we-know-best types. THM's posts are a classic example.
It's a pleasure 😉
Looking foreword to the alternative narrative
The fact is that whether you look at this from the right or left, the centrist neo-liberal consensus that has ruled for nearly 40 years has abjectly failed. People are poorer, life is harder, kids have less hope not more, and wealth, class, racial and cultural divides are more distinct than they have been for decades.
Ah gobbledygook, not one aspect it this holds up to scrutiny - cue call for the snake oil
Rightly or wrongly, the people have decided that a new solution is required, and they'll vote for whoever offers one, whether that's Corbyn, Boris, Ress-Mogg, Farage or whoever. The sooner the centrists get their head around that the sooner we can move on.
Wrongly, this is what bought us Brexshit, Trump, Corbyn, Bojo etc. That is what we want to avoid. Economics didn't fail - well only parts of it did. We are simply adjusting to two things - the massive accumulation of debt globally and the impacts of globalisation. We are ill-prepared for both. The answers are not the extremes, they simply make the search for solutions much more dangerous.
False dreams, false solutions, false hope....welcome to the new world.
Can you imagine the press conference if/when Boris becomes PM? No one would be able to keep a straight face.
e are simply adjusting to two things - the massive accumulation of debt globally
To me this seems like a failure of pure capitalism. Banks can lend and make money, people can spend and make money, economy grows, people can repay, everyone's happy - at first, then it goes pop of course. But to prevent that we'd need restrictions on the cycle. So, legal restrictions on borrowing? You sound like a liberal, THM, how would that sit with you? Would we be able to do anything else other than legislate?
Its funny isn't it, that the people you always here parroting the same old 'there is no alternative' claptrap about the present limping, knackered model of free-market capitalism are the ones who have done very nicely out of it thank you very much, and who's wealth and position insulate them from its failures
You never hear 'yeah.... my business went to the wall during the banking crash, because the economy stopped functioning, and I lost my house and nearly killed myself due to the resulting depression...
but you know what.... I can't see any alternative to just cracking on with the same thing. I mean that whole socialism thing is just a bloody, joke isn't it? In fact, any restrictions at all on 'the Market' are tantamount to communism, which never works.
Because at the end of the day, as George used to say - we're all in it together - and he was right. The economic pain was shared out equally, and those whose reckless behaviour and limitless greed got us all into this mess paid a very heavy price indeed"
Oh... hang on a minute....
Yeah... who the hell can see the appeal of maybe trying something different, something that seems a bit more centred on actual people, and their needs, instead of just paying higher dividends to shareholders? Corbyns popularity, particularly amongst the young, is absolutely mystifying, isn't it?
False dreams, false solutions, false hope....welcome to the new world.
As I said somewhere else before. Restraint and realism needs to be lead from the top. Until people see corporations and the rich paying tax, CEOs and senior civil servants paying themselves realistic salaries, and not being taken for fools about magic money trees etc then they won't accept politicians telling them this is as good as it gets.
You say economics didn't fail. I find that difficult to accept considering the clusterf*** of the past 10 years is the result of a system which has implemented pretty much everything that the economic orthodoxy told it to. Economists have not been passive observers in this neo-liberal experiment, they've been central to the whole thing apart from a few dissenting voices.
Education mol - that's the key. People are financial illiterate in general. That needs sorting.
We have the ability to restrict credit and the body to do it. They were asleep at the wheel.
My childhood was scared by government attempts to manage the cycle - they were crap at it too
economists are not a homogeneous group - some saw it coming (and made money), others didn't (and lost it)
There was no failure of capitalism, there was a failure of controlling debt
Beyond the rhetoric our tax system is highly progressive and works pretty well. To suggest otherwise is nonsense. It's not perfect, but that is a different thing.
Binners people have been fooled by snake oil over many years. Jezza if offering nothing new - excuse the double meaning there.
trying something different,
Places *have* tried something different. Liberal economics has become the defacto way to run an economy because everything else has been tested and failed.
Corbyns popularity, particularly amongst the young, is absolutely mystifying, isn't it?
Not really mystifying it was a combination of Labours core vote combined with a set of giveaway election promises including free University Education. Always going to be popular, especially with the young. Not popular enough to win, of course.
True. Yesterday's vision about the unbridled wonders offered by 'more of the same' sounded absolutely fantastic!
Lets hear it for free-market capitalism, and this lot leading us to the sunlit uplands !!!
[img] 
[/img]
In the midst of flatlining wages, exorbitant house and asset prices, yet more echelons of utility company shareholders wanting dividends paid for by consumers with no real recourse to an actual market and of course, the prospect of being £50k in debt for going to university, I for one am delighted that the Conservatives want to keep everything exactly the same and will be very keen to vote to continue the status quo, even if Brexit makes the pound in my pocket worthless.
Not.
TM will be gone in next few days - v strong rumours
£ already falling - short RBS trades in place
Be careful what you wish for
Ding, ding, round three....
I have to be honest, I'm happy enough with the tories progress during these brexit talks. There's no danger they'll ever get them completed. Which is funny as the EU27 haven't even really started playing funny buggers yet.
What that means though is that we are in utter limbo until these talks fail.
They played silly nuggets from the start 😯
I would imagine that with Boris at the helm Brexit talks would go monumentally tits up within seconds, as he manages to massively insult everyone involved. He's already absolutely despised in Brussels, for good reason
Can you imagine what a laughing stock we'd be internationally?
And this particular Anglo-Saxon model of neo-liberal free-marketcapitalism, that apparently is so bloody brilliant, would have Boris Johnson and Donald Trump as its joint figureheads. Something to look forward to, eh? 😯
Liberal economics has become the defacto way to run an economy because everything else has been tested and failed.
Apart from as a term it is pretty meaningless and is used to cover a whole range of different economies. From the current UK model to European and other models.
So you would need to define what you think by liberal economics and what range it covers before you can declare everything else failed.
economists are not a homogeneous group
They're not, but the number of dissenters from the neo-liberal free market orthodoxy is vanishingly small. Or at least it was pre-2009. [url= https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/jul/11/how-economics-became-a-religion ]It's more like a religion than science[/url].
From the Guardian website just now
[i]Charles Walker, vice chair of the Conservative backbench 1922 committee, told BBC News a few minutes ago that Theresa May was doing “an outstanding job” and that most of his fellow Tory MPs thought the same. [/i]
That sounds to me an awful lot like a Premiership manager getting 'the full backing of the board'
Gone by the morning
Liberal economics has become the defacto way to run an economy because everything else has been tested and failed.
There are quite different variations across Europe, with different results. Norway as an example - what did they do with their North Sea oil?
What next then, boris, hammond, mogg, election?
election?
This is the big question. Given their non-majority it would be a disgrace if they changed leader without also calling a new election. If they end up with Boris or god forbid Rees-Mogg however I wonder how many of the anti-brexit centrists would be up for abstaining in a no-confidence vote.
nah the entire party is just gonna hunker down and try and pretend that none of this is happening
just watch theyll keep spinning the same Brexit BS after the next round of talks
The Tory frontrunners never get elected leader. And the more they obviously want it - or in Boris's case, feel they-re entitled to it - the less chance they have
Doesn't it work that it's the MP's who whittle it down to 2, then the membership get to vote?
Boris won't get past the MP's. He's pissed too many of them off. Mogg wouldn't touch it with a bargepole
One thing's for sure. It'll usher in full-scale civil war within the party as the Europhile and swivel-eyed wings of the party sling their uneasy truce out of the window
There are quite different variations across Europe, with different results. Norway as an example - what did they do with their North Sea oil?
If you're suggesting that instead of increasing our already massive national debt we instead accumulate £400 billion as Norway did with much of their oil money I'm all ears. (We could call it Inverse-Corbynomics or Inverse-Trumponomics.)
If you're suggesting we reduce our population to the point where 100pc of our energy needs can be met with Hydroelectric power from our nearby mountain lakes then I am all ears.
I suspect you're actually saying we should pretend we had 400m to blow and spend it whilst burning fossil fuels as fast as we can. Which I'm less keen on.
teamhurtmore - MemberThey played silly nuggets from the start
Aye, but they've no even had to try as yet.
OOB I'm not suggesting anything as a course of action for the UK. I was merely pointing out that there's variations in liberal democracy. As far as I know, Norway is still a capitalist economy, in which the government decided to set up a state owned oil company and keep all the profits for the benefit of the country (if I understand that correctly) whereas we just flogged it off.
Tory MPs are all lining up to sing her praises. Apparently, its the greatest speech that was ever given by anyone EVER!
She really is ****ed!
Gone by tomorrow
[quote=dazh ]Given their non-majority it would be a disgrace if they changed leader without also calling a new election.
The Tory party are quite happy to be a disgrace if it avoids calling a GE. They won't even realise they are a disgrace. The idea that a change in Tory leader automatically results in a GE is fantasy land stuff. So be careful what you wish for - because as has been said plenty of times on here (by me at least 😉 ) as useless and incompetent as TM might be, I'm struggling to think of a realistic alternative who wouldn't be worse (I'd settle for Hammond, but I don't think he has any realistic chance of leading the current party). About the best we can hope for is somebody else just as ineffectual.
binners - MemberGone by tomorrow
Don't see it, she's got control of the ship until it crashes. And everyone can see the crash coming.
