[Closed] should the UK ditch Northern Ireland and hand it over to the Irish Republic?

The politics no longer aligns with the geography so something has to give. I think the geography has been around a lot longer.

Of course it will have to be dressed up in fancy clothes to disguise what's going on.

Yes.

/thread

The fact that the people who live there who would like this to happen aren't pushing for a referendum to allow it to happen demonstrates the above posters complete lack of understanding.

I suppose we could ditch NI, but it would be much better all around if we ditched England instead.

No, yes and no...it's complicated. Perhaps make it independant and see who invades first when we tell everyone there is oil there.

Andy_B - Member

The fact that the people who live there who would like this to happen aren't pushing for a referendum to allow it to happen demonstrates the above posters complete lack of understanding.

Sinn Féin have been calling for it on a weekly basis since Brexit but there are a number of preconditions that have to be satisfied under the Good Friday Agreement to allow a vote to be called. The timing has to be right politically too, obviously.

The vast majority of people on the island would be in favour of a united Ireland, obviously about half of the population of NI would not. Most surveys have assumed/implied financial costs for the Republic so there appears to be a lack of enthusiasm in the Republic but that's not the case imo. If there was some form of massive financial incentive you'd see almost universal favour in the south and mu guess would be that most moderate unionists could be bought.

There would always be a hardcore of maybe 100,000 who would be opposed no matter what but if the right language was used, if the devolution process was carried over a long enough time scale, and if there was a sufficiently large financial incentive it could be done.

Money, any reconstruction on a unified Ireland will cost money, who pays.

IMO it will happen, all about the timing though,may yet be decades away, once the peace is strong enough and the idiots few in number. How the republic is perceived by Loyalists, as a Catholic country etc.

mrmo - Member

Money, any reconstruction on a unified Ireland will cost money, who pays.

Britain. Obviously.

those that don't like it can move to Norfolk or Liverpool or some other backwater

They'd probably quite like the Falklands. 😉

Unified Ireland sounds like a great idea

I think we should start sending William and Kate over regularly first though, if we are to stand any chance of the Irish people accepting them as King and Queen

Oh, sorry, you meant the other way around? Where would the sense in that be - Do you really think that Eire would want to adopt the six counties?

All that really matters is what the northern Irish have to say about it.

Eire

Yay.

reckon this idea has legs?

No. And if it did, they wouldn't have kneecaps for long.

No issue for me, but the republic should be footing the bill to reconstitute our (I'm a countryman of darcys) country.
With regards to the prods, I have seen a marked change in attitude from my NI relatives, who are all highly intelligent. Ten years ago they were very much against it and now they are broadly open to the idea. They just don't want to be "bullied" into it.
The referendum (if there is to be one at all) should be limited to NI, that's the self determination part. This talk of "sod the prods" does not display the kind of tolerance I expected from here.

ninfan - Member

Oh, sorry, you meant the other way around? Where would the sense in that be - Do you really think that Eire would want to adopt the six counties?

It's always assumed or implied that the south would eat the costs of a united Ireland, which is what I was referring to in my post. I don't see why this should be the case and if wheels were put in motion I think everyone would understand there would need to be incentives, not disincentives.

I think we should start sending William and Kate over regularly first though, if we are to stand any chance of the Irish people accepting them as King and Queen

Yeah, send them to the Creggan. You'd suddenly have a few hundred million a year extra to put in the United Ireland piggy bank 😆

Is there much point in the UK as an entity existing anymore anyway? Would probably be easier just to separate Wales, NI, Scotland and England completely and take it from there...

[quote=munrobiker ]All that really matters is what the northern Irish have to say about it.

thankfully the sons and daughters of the ulster plantation, when it was colonised to remain loyal , are still loyal.

Its not all that matters

You could of course say all that matters is the result of the all Ireland vote on unification that we promised them after WW1

Remind us all of the result and the UK govts reaction then to the will of the people?

what should be done and what we can do after centuries of settlement are two different things

see israel illegal land grabs for this policy[ settlements] in action today

If NI joined the RoI because of Brexit then surely it would be only right for the UK to bear some or even all of the costs?

Or (playing devils advocate) you could argue that the island of Ireland has been a British asset for 800 years and should be compensated for giving it up.

Sensibly it shouldn't have been divided in the 20's and making it one country now as part of the EU would be the best for the younger people.

Same could be said for this island though.

wilburt - Member

Or (playing devils advocate) you could argue that the island of Ireland has been a British asset for 800 years and should be compensated for giving it up.

What?

If it was geographically easy to say "okay, this bit wants to be part of Ireland - off you go, this bit wants to be part of the UK, here you stay" it woild have happened decades ago but various parties are all intertwined.

Sadly I think the EU helped things - were all part of the EU, yeah there will always be those die-hard arseholes who can't be happy even if they got everything they wanted, because really they just want a reason to hate.

It's worth keeping an eye on any suggestions that we should make any parts of the UK Independent because they cost the rest of us money too - Scotland was highlighted this week as "running a deficit" in sorry but that's how the UK works - we have a small, but very profitable industry in London that makes all the money - not because they're special, but because we forcused the country that way - to claim that other parts aren't "pulling their weight" because of it is firstly wrong and secondly very unfair.

Independence for the South East of England would be a better option for everybody

Or (playing devils advocate) you could argue that the island of Ireland has been a British asset for 800 years and should be compensated for giving it up.

devils advocate, last vestiges of the English Empire and not to be given up willingly. Once NI is lost, only time before Scotland and Wales break away along with IoM, Jersey et al declaring full independence. Then England will be left with nothing.

I thought sinn fein were just waiting for the demographics to shift in a few years so that a referendum was likely to pass.

The madness of Brexit seems to have brought it all to the fore, certainly into the conscious of rUK.
The backwards bigotry of the DUP also quite a shock to me at least.

devils advocate, last vestiges of the English Empire and not to be given up willingly. Once NI is lost, only time before Scotland and Wales break away along with IoM, Jersey et al declaring full independence. Then England will be left with nothing.

Maybe, but seeing as the IoM, Jersey (and Barbados, Caymen, BVI's etc) all make their economies work by being British apart from the tax I can't see that happening any time soon. Be more interesting to see if during the post Brexit slash and burn of legislation and tax codes whether the free movement of money to those tax havens is still allowed?

kimbers - Member

I thought sinn fein were just waiting for the demographics to shift in a few years so that a referendum was likely to pass.

They are making political capital out of the Brexit debacle (the DUP selling NI, and possibly fixing the entire result for £500,000) and they are priming the pump for a potential referendum some time in the future.

Northern Ireland could well end up in a disastrous situation post brexit. The only logical solution is a one island border.

All that really matters is what the northern Irish have to say about it.

Precisely!

interesting to see if during the post Brexit slash and burn of legislation and tax codes whether the free movement of money to those tax havens is still allowed?

It will be, the main drive for Brexit in the upper echelons of UK society was all money motivated to prevent stricter tax rules filtering down from the EU and costing them.
They just had to convince the common folk using a slightly different motivator, which they just about succeeded with.

All that really matters is what the northern Irish have to say about it.

Not necessarily, if the republic decide they don't [i]really[/i] fancy it.

Not necessarily, if the republic decide they don't really fancy it.

They don't have to join Eire in order to leave the UK...

1.
It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament[2] that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.

2.
Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island.

Personally, I'd love to see it, I just don't see the North ever voting for it.

It will be, the main drive for Brexit in the upper echelons of UK society was all money motivated to prevent stricter tax rules filtering down from the EU and costing them.
They just had to convince the common folk using a slightly different motivator, which they just about succeeded with.

True, but unless the post-Brxit utopia they've been promised materialises, there'll be trouble. Sun readers may be short of a few GCSE's but I can't imagine Murdoch's ability to spin lies against their own best interests can go on much further.

First they came for the Immigrants, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Immigrant.

Then they came for the Remainers, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Remainer.

Then they came for the Left-Wing, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Corbynite.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Declare it independent and walk away.

I have family in NI and really hope there aren't any moves towards reunification in the near future. I recall going over there during the troubles (not fun when you're in the forces) and really don't want to go back to that, which is what would happen (led by the Loyalists this time).

epicsteve - Member

I have family in NI and really hope there aren't any moves towards reunification in the near future. I recall going over there during the troubles (not fun when you're in the forces) and really don't want to go back to that, which is what would happen (led by the Loyalists this time).

If there was a snap referendum tomorrow and a united Ireland was declared yes there would be trouble. But a drawn out process over decades, not so much. Also there's no comparison to be made between the kind of military campaign the IRA were able to mount and what the loyalist would be able to do today. Without the collusion and support they had from the security forces during the troubles they'll lack the bombmaking skills and weaponry they once had access to.

But a drawn out process over decades, not so much.

Would need to be at least a couple of generations.

wilburt - Member
Or (playing devils advocate) you could argue that the island of Ireland has been a British asset for 800 years and should be compensated for giving it up.

jimjam - Member?

What?

Britain didnt invade the top bit, the whole of the island of Ireland has been under British (English) control for centuries. It was given independence in the 20's with NI keeping home rule.

Following the Norman invasion in the 12th century, England claimed sovereignty over Ireland. However, English rule did not extend over the whole island until the 16th–17th century Tudor conquest, which led to colonisation by settlers from Britain. In the 1690s, a system of Protestant English rule was designed to materially disadvantage the Catholic majority and Protestant dissenters, and was extended during the 18th century. With the Acts of Union in 1801, Ireland became a part of the United Kingdom. A war of independence in the early 20th century was followed by the partition of the island, creating the Irish Free State, which became increasingly sovereign over the following decades, and Northern Ireland, which remained a part of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland saw much civil unrest from the late 1960s until the 1990s. This subsided following a political agreement in 1998. In 1973 the Republic of Ireland joined the European Economic Community while the United Kingdom, and Northern Ireland, as part of it, did the same.

History aside I still think it should be one nation, partition rarely works. The younger people dont give a hoot about all this nonsense and just want what every other young western person has.

ransos - Member

Not necessarily, if the republic decide they don't really fancy it.

They don't have to join Eire in order to leave the UK...

I was responding to the OP's question, maybe you should read it.

should the UK mainland hand over the Province to the Republic

Trust me Wilburt, I don't need a lesson in Irish history. If you are playing devils advocate then your position should at least make sense. Compensating Britain for the loss of an asset is like suggesting a thief should be compensated for having to return stolen goods.

Declare it independent and walk away.

This.

Ok as an N.Irishman/Irishman/British/Ulsterman

Ireland should never have been partitioned and should be united.

As you can see from my national identity above, doing anything about it is nigh on impossible.

Just leave things the way they are, I.e a cluster****

[quote=epicsteve ]

But a drawn out process over decades, not so much.

Which isn't really going to help with the Brexit issue.

Surely the far easier solution than holding a referendum on Irish re-unification would be to hold another referendum on a different issue?

Britain didnt invade the top bit, the whole of the island of Ireland has been under British (English) control for centuries. It was given independence in the 20's with NI keeping home rule.

It wasn't given independence, and there isn't really a single date when independence was achieved, unlike India. More like decades of disentanglement. There are reasons why Ireland has changed its official name over the years.

Ask yourself why the Irish have been allowed to live and work in the UK in a way no other immigrant community ever has been?

The best thing to do would be SUFTUM!

I live in a republican SF stronghold and if you can find 10 billion a year down the back of the sofa (because Ireland doesn't have it), stop the mentalists with the flags and bonfires, get rid of the nut job religionists and get rid of the populist arseholes in SF then you might get people thinking about voting for it.

People will sing the songs but the last person I know who really wanted it died last year. Most nowadays are happy for the blurred choice everyone has.

Compensating Britain for the loss of an asset is like suggesting a thief should be compensated for having to return stolen goods.

Within these timescales every landed family in the UK and most Americans could be called thiefs.

Academic argument though and the sort of thing people go to war over.

Surely the far easier solution than holding a referendum on Irish re-unification would be to hold another referendum on a different issue?

How many referenda do you need? We had a referendum, Leave won, Remain lost.

How many referenda do you need? We had a referendum, Leave won, Remain lost.

Best of 3 seems fair.

Within these timescales every landed family in the UK and most Americans could be called thiefs.

Academic argument though and the sort of thing people go to war over.

I love a history lesson from people with access to wiki.

How many referenda do you need? We had a referendum, Leave won, Remain lost.

If it was covered by the sale of goods act, we'd all be eligible for a refund.

Declare it independent and walk away.

I am sure someone had a similar process of arbitrary border line moving at somepoint - suddenly declaring houses and people in one country belonged to another country, with a slightly different religious view. I am not sure it went all that well...
IIRC, Britain walked away from this one too.
[img] [/img]

The point I was making is the people of Ireland should look forward because looking back is futile.

Sorry for using Wiki whats the STW reference of choice or would you rather I rewrite it myself?

wilburt - Member
The point I was making is the people of Ireland should look forward because looking back is futile.

Irish history is something no Englishman should forget and no Irishman should remember - George Bernard Shaw.

Unfortunately that's something neither party are capable of.

[quote=oldnpastit ]How many referenda do you need?

In order for NI to leave the UK and unify with Eire? At least one more. I was simply commenting on the optimum additional referendum to hold.

I'm also not sure why you think anybody won.

Would a referendum in each county work rather than being province wide? I wondered if the counties nearer the Republic might already shown a majority in favour of unification.

Or maybe the ROI could join the UK?

I wonder what Corbyn's third political wish would be?

Brexit
United Ireland
...

I wonder what Corbyn's third political wish would be?

Getting to bang Diane abbot again?.

I wonder what Corbyn's third [b]political [/b]wish would be?

Getting to bang Diane abbot again?.

scotroutes - Member

Would a referendum in each county work rather than being province wide? I wondered if the counties nearer the Republic might already shown a majority in favour of unification.

Interesting idea. You'd probably end up with an Antrim/North Down statelet and I'm not sure what that would achieve.

I think if the UK government put "geographic convenience" over the wishes of the majority of residents, then the good folk of Gibraltar and Islas Malvinas would have something to say about it. And as with Scottish Indyref and Brexit, it's the views of the residents which count.

I'm all for the SE of England gaining independence, though, and I've have thought most people (on both sides) would be up for it.

ETA: can you imagine the [s]arguments[/s] debate over where the parliament for the Rest of the UK would sit? Where would YOU vote for...? (Should be a STW poll).