Eldest has graduated this summer and is applying for graduate jobs. He has his first interview in a couple of weeks with a multinational car lease company, and it is expected he will work 55 hours a week. Is this normal now amongst big companies, puts him on less than minimum wage which seems wrong.
seems on the wrong side of harsh to me... but a foot in the door I guess.
Competition is high. The questions are, is he willing to do this for the money? and is there anything better out there?
I guess he is on the "apprentice" rate for the first year?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive
Well working time directive would be out the window first.
What exactly do the expect him to be doing for 55hrs a week?
That's not bad going really, it's the first rung on the career ladder, work harder paid less at the bottom.
If it is less than minimum wage, and over the working hours limit, it may be illegal, and he needs to think if the long term prospects are worth the short term pain.
Everyone has a degree these days. It doesn't guarantee you any sort of job any more, let alone a "good" one.
taking the piss.
you dont have to let your self be a doormat to get a job - it screams to me that the job is of the quality that i wouldnt want.
talking as someone who graduated at the start of the recession when everyone put out their no vacancies signs.
FWIW ive opted out of the WTD and i am Expected to work as needed. if my work started being 55hr weeks - id be off looking at a new job ASAP.
The money an WTD directive does not apply to all jobs especially in the UK. What is the job actually advertised as?
Even a graduate has to start at the bottom. Give it 6 months and see where it leads.
A degree doesn't guarantee a 40k a year job, decent hours and a good boss!
plus, what's he actually doing? There are plenty of firms who will pay better than that, i've just employed a grad for £27K in Essex! (not as a grad, but normal job).
If it is less than minimum wage, and over the working hours limit, it may be illegal, and he needs to think if the long term prospects are worth the short term pain.
And also if he wants to work for a company that treats staff like that!
Everyone has a degree these days.
True. What is his degree in?
"A degree doesn't guarantee a 40k a year job, decent hours and a good boss!"
your right it doesnt - but it also doesnt give them the right to treat you like a door mat.
if i was in an interview and told i would be "EXPECTED" to work 55hrs a week i would end the interview there - regardless of the money offered.
if i was told "UP TO " 55hrs a week as required then i would be alot more interested in working for them.
Eldest has graduated this summer and is applying for graduate jobs. He has his first interview in a couple of weeks with a multinational car lease company, and it is expected he will work 55 hours a week. Is this normal now amongst big companies, puts him on less than minimum wage which seems wrong.
If this is what they are saying before he starts, it will be a lot worse in the job.
And also if he wants to work for a company that treats staff like that!
This.
Tell him not to bother with Enterprise, it's not a real grad scheme, more of a "trainee" scheme. I was offered a place many years ago but within 15 minutes of the start of the assessment centre I knew I didn't want to work there. Also know a couple of people who did work there and both left within 1-2 years.
Seems shit. I graduated 6 years ago (when things were a bit shit) and got a choice of jobs paying a lot more than that for fewer hours.
I'd be questioning if I wanted to work for a company who had such "expectations". What if I did everything expected of me in less time? Would I have to sit there for the balance of the "expected" hours? I'm assuming it's not actually contracted at 55 hpw.
Are you worried about it or is he?
55 hours per week, perhaps with an hour for lunch each day will not trouble WTD. Those are long hours but, in certain industries, not unheard of. If there are good career prospects and the hours are likely to drop then I would do it, if not (and certainly if he has other things in the pipeline) perhaps not. Also, £17.5k is not a bad graduate salary, not brilliant but no horrendous either.
Doesn't seem too unreasonable for a first job. I did 65 hour weeks when i first started working. The employer can always ask you to opt out of the WTD as well. Although you are not obliged to, they can word it so you would be at a disadvantage if you didn't
Depends on the prospects of the job; if the job leads on to what your son wants to be doing that follows on from his degree then might be worth it. Given they can offer such terms suggests they'll be plenty of grads who will accept the terms
Put it this way.
YOU have been offered a new job, 55 hours per week for £17.5K.
If that is in the contract and he's over 20 then it would be less than the minimum wage. Illegal. Although the company might try to wiggle around that by stating that the contracted hours were 40 and then would "expect" you to do the extra hours for no pay. Or something like that.
You can opt out of WTD but it's not possible to get out of minimum wage properly
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/low-pay-commission
Depends on what other options there are. I'd have taken whatever job I could get just to get started as a grad. Once in one it's easy enough to find a better one.
As above depends where he can go from here. I started with a company that expected a chunk of unpaid overtime. They were a good employer with plenty of help and training available as well as plenty of room for promotions so I was happy to do it. Gave me a good start on the career ladder. I later moved to a company that had a demand for unpaid overtime and offered little support or any training. They really took the pee and I soon left.
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about university graduates, and walking into high paid jobs.
Unfortunately, although you will have the correct training, you won't have experience to put that training to good use for a year or so. even within each individual company, you have 6 months or so to learn how they do things.
I've worked with a lot of graduates, and apprentices. I can honestly say a good apprentice after 3 months does as much meaningful work as a graduate. It takes a few years for the graduate to pull ahead and start putting their knowledge to full use without being helped.
(this is in my industry BTW - design, but I know it's different for doctors and other more specialist graduates)
It's a foot on the ladder and he should take it for now, it will be easier to get the real job he wants if he's already employed.
There are ways around minimum wage that need fixing. If they are on commission they can use it to bump up the wage but next time you have a good week they claw that money back. Its totally crooked but lots of placesd do it.
If it really is the first step on the ladder, and it's part of an overall decent package, it might be worthwhile. But quite often these things don't work out that way, we're getting more and more reports back from graduates that their "starter" role quietly becomes a permanent role with no more than vague promises of progression some day.
£17.5K sounds rubbish for a grad, that's around what I started on in 2000, nearly 15 years ago!
Run for the hills.
Hmmm... well it's much worse than I got for a bottom of the ladder sales support job a few years ago straight out of uni so unless the prospects are pretty amazing I'd do something else.
Then again, I don't think you could pay me enough to make me want to work an extra 20 hours a week.
Then again, I don't think you could pay me enough to make me want to work an extra 20 hours a week.
This.
He got a 2/1 in politics from Newcastle, so whilst not medicine I would have thought it a reasonably good qualification.
Unknown, it is Enterprise. They have reviews as being a good graduate employer, but from what you say it might be worth giving them a wide berth.
If anyone needs a well presented, articulate ex grammar school bod he is willing to move out of the north west for employment (and I would be extremely grateful if someone could get him to move out :wink:)
They do seem demand ridiculous amounts from young, fresh out of uni, graduates nowadays. One of my mates started at Ernest and Young 2 years ago as an apprentice. He had to sign a waiver to the WTD, and had to be based in London, all whilst paid £18,000 a year. He had no family in London so had to rent which cleaned him out financially. During busy periods he was working 7am til 9:30pm 5 or 6 days a week. He's sticking with it because at the end of his apprenticeship was a degree from Durham university and a very well paid job.
Another mate was offered a £90k job at another of the big City banks, but was told in the interview to expect to work at least one weekend a month and that he would probably need to bring spare clothes with him a few days a week so that he could shower and change at work. He asked them why would he want to work for someone that pays him so much money and yet gives him no time to enjoy it.
But in response to the OP, it seems par for the course for uni leavers nowadays.
If he doesn't like the pay/job prospect, could always do what my little brother did, get a PhD and then start 10 years later on just 10k a year more but 10 years behind everyone else at the intake...swings and roundabout
In my previous industry grads typically worked 7.30 until 8-9pm for about 18-20k basic + commission. In London your ability to work like a donkey is directly related to how long you last in your first few roles. Any dissenters got shown the door in a few weeks.
Lemonysam - I'm earning 2/3 what I was on 15 years ago, and that's after getting my degree. Sometimes life just sucks
"my mates started at Ernest and Young 2 years ago as an apprentice. He had to sign a waiver to the WTD, and had to be based in London, all whilst paid £18,000 a year. He had no family in London so had to rent which cleaned him out financially. During busy periods he was working 7am til 9:30pm 5 or 6 days a week. He's sticking with it because at the end of his apprenticeship was a degree from Durham university and a very well paid job."
thats a totally different kettle of fish.
Depends on prospects.
I was earning less than that when I came out of law school and working 50-80 hours a week. I used to then work every Saturday and Sunday in a part time job to pay my monthly rail season ticket to get to work. 2 years without a day off and was more skint than when I was a student. Means to an end though.
could always do what my little brother did, get a PhD and then start 10 years later on just 10k a year more
That was a long PhD!
I'd rather have the OP son's potential job than none.
I'm very much of the opinion you work to live and not the other way round, so it does concern me that he will have very little time to himself if he takes this or a similar job. However, the job market would appear to be fairly appalling at the moment so half of me thinks he should go for whatever he can. Easier to get another job if already employed apparently
trail_rat - Member
"my mates started at Ernest and Young 2 years ago as an apprentice. He had to sign a waiver to the WTD, and had to be based in London, all whilst paid £18,000 a year. He had no family in London so had to rent which cleaned him out financially. During busy periods he was working 7am til 9:30pm 5 or 6 days a week. He's sticking with it because at the end of his apprenticeship was a degree from Durham university and a very well paid job."thats a totally different kettle of fish.
Why is it? similar money, similar hours? As I should have added, it all depends on the prospects at the end of it. But I certainly wouldn't put myself through that unless I was absolutely certain that that is what I wanted to do with my life.
If his contracts stated 55 hours then he would have to waiver his right under WTD.
55 hours is ok you can still have a healthy work/life balance. However I have worked doing 70+ hours a week every week including 100+ hour weeks, I would never ever recommend anyone to do this as it will turn you into a mental wreck after a year or so.
If I was offered a job I liked the sound of and had good opportunities for the future I would consider it, however that rate of pay is pretty low.
I gained a Bachelors degree 5 or 6 years ago but didnt have ideas of grandeur. Realistically, even when I graduated everyone and their cousin had a degree. If you didnt, that was almost not normal. However, I have mates who have slogged their guts out, put in their unpaid overtime and are now flourishing after 3 years of hard graft. Its not any different to jobs before degrees were the norm. Long working hours and basic wage will get better and if it dosent it shows far more about the person that has done it and put the effort in. The problem arrises when he is still doing 50+ hours for under £18k 2 years in for the same company and hasnt aimed for higher.
I have been lucky to get onto the career ladder for my dream job and it was not directly influenced by my degree although it probably looked better.
I should add that I have always been in work since I was 16. 5 years of uni I worked throughout, through one summer I did 7-6 Mon-Fri as a groundworker, then Tesco employee two evenings and 10-10 Sat and 10-4 Sun for 3 months. Hard work shouldnt be avoided and he will get a feeling fairly quickly as to whether it will be worth it.
join union
take the job
refuse to sign the working time opt out
get sacked
sue
Long working hours and basic wage will get better and if it dosent it shows far more about the person that has done it and put the effort in.
Are you really blaming employees for crappy working conditions?
Doesn't seem that great a job to me on the face of it. I would expect to see some pretty material promotion prospects with big uplift in salary and other benefits to consider it. I think the employer is taking the P*** as they know its a tough market. I have never done much less than 50 hours a week fwiw.
"Why is it? similar money, similar hours? As I should have added, it all depends on the prospects at the end of it. But I certainly wouldn't put myself through that unless I was absolutely certain that that is what I wanted to do with my life."
because there is light at the end of that tunnel.
enterprise - you "might" be lucky and get an area managers job in a cupboard on an industrial estate in a town a long way away.
Ive had friends go through this with a couple of wellknown supermarkets when they realised that their chosen degree didnt actually open any doors
at the end of it all they got was stress and a sicknote.
Lemonysam, not at all. I am saying the difference between someone who is willing to do 50+ hours to get on and up the ladder will show compared to the person who is happy working part time for no reason. If you want to get ahead, you have to work smart and have to work hard. 50+ hours a week does not make for crappy working conditions if he enjoys who hes working with, enjoys the job and realises its not forever.
I gained a Batchelors degree 5 or 6 years ago
a 2:1 in Cream Of Mushroom? 😉
(ooooh sneaky ninja edit.. well played)
and playing devils advocate its because people keep taking these jobs because they think in this way that employers get away with it.....
My sisters Ex worked for Enterprise on their grad scheme for 3+ years, his experience of them would second what Unknown has said.
It is not a graduate program it is a trainee program, I think he got up to a shop manager level but the pay didn't increase much and hours and responsibility just got worse. I got the impression there was quite a hight turn over of graduates. Once at the store manager level there was not really a next step and the working hours seemed mental.
I'm with trail-rat it's different if you are at one of the big 3 accountancy firms as stick with it and you know you'll be sorted later on, Enterprise however, hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm 🙄
If after 2 years of doing long hours for a low wage he does not see any benefit and its all empty promises he needs to change tact. Working hard doesnt pay off if he dosent learn from it and use it to his advantage.
I graduated in the thick of the recession and started on 15k a year. I completely regret it- the company knew there weren't really any jobs going and I had no choice and took me for a ride for 3 years. It knocked back my career by a couple of years and only now at a new company am I earning more than what I should have started on.
The problem is when you start on so little for that amount of hours every time you ask for a pay rise you get bump from "practically nothing" to "very very little". You can get a 10% pay rise and it make no real difference to what your take home pay is.
If I were him I'd not take the job. Times are better now, there are more jobs going than when I graduated and he shouldn't have to work those hours. It's very easy to say "oh, it's a foot in the door" but there is probably more than one door, some of which won't take the piss when you open them.
My first office job out of uni was £12500 pa, at 37.5 hrs pw, wasn't a graduate job, just the first job I got. Data entry and they took on a lot of college leavers. This was in 06. Then in 08 I started another job at 17kpa with 9k otc. 37.5 hrs pw.
I don't have a degree....
ninfan - Member
join uniontake the job
refuse to sign the working time opt out
get sacked
sue
Done this before?
Although you are not obliged to, they can word it so you would be at a disadvantage if you didn't
No they can't, just signed mine again to allow me to work overtime. They are not allowed to disadvantage staff for not opting out.
Enterprise rent a car by any chance?
I've had friends work for them straight out of uni, they give you all the bs about being "a manager" and getting "promotions", but none of it means anything, they are just after smart people who they can flog to death.
If he has other options, I would avoid - and £17.5k isn't a great starting salary for a grad (depending on degree subject of course)
My Little Bro worked for Enterprise. Bloke walks into his depot one day to hire a car, likes the 'professional' way little bro deals with him, offers him a job managing a team of IT techies who look after the stockmarket trading system. Opportunities.
Really? Peter on Dragon's Den does that sometimes....
Unless his degree is relevent to the industry, I see no reason why a graduate should expect a better sallary or more opportunities than anyone else.
Seems long hours and low wage, but I guess that needs to be balanced against what else is around for him.
What does he actually want to do? Presumably he didn't undertake a politics degree with the ambition of becoming a car hire manager...does he want to get into logistics/HR/sales/marketing/something else? If he's still living at home and both of you can tolerate it for a little bit longer this could be a good opportunity for him to do some unpaid work experience to try and work out what he enjoys and what he wants to do longer term. The experience could also land him a job in a preferred field.
If he moves away, gets a shitty job he doesn't enjoy and is financially 'stuck' somewhere it'll be a lot harder for him to work out his next step. He's got a decent degree from a decent uni - £17.5k for stupid hours and what sounds like a crap employer is not a good step. Unless you're about to kick him out he should try not to panic and keep looking/do the unpaid option.
Should my recently graduated son expect to work 55 hpw for £17500 pa?
Only if he agrees to it.
Could treat it as a test of negotiating skills.
TBH, there's better out there. Could go agency temp for a few months whilst continuing applications for "career posts".
Would pick up similar experience, make more contacts/ meet possible opportunities, and be paid at least minimum wage for the actual number of hours worked.
Doesn't sound like he'd be any worse off career-wise either.
Thanks fionap, that makes sense. To be honest he is not entirely sure what he wants to do at the moment and it might be an idea not to rush into the first job that comes along.
Anyway, it's my day off before a weekend of evening shifts, so I'm off up Jeffrey Hill on the bike for a bit before the rain starts 😕
OP, public sector grad schemes are around £20k with normal office hours and flexi-time
depends on your location, as said, in london youll struggle on that salary, whats his degree in, is this the career he wants to follow?
and he if he can stick this out for a year but keep his eye out for something better it might not be so bad
starting in science 15 years ago I was on 10K, certainly not 55 hours but that was in cambridge which wasnt cheap, so it took a while before I was able to pay off student loans and start having disposable cash!
I wouldn't have taken a job like that even if I had an irrelevant degree.
We took on a couple of grads recently at £30k a year with paid overtime. But they have relevant (Masters in engineering) degrees.
Saying that, 17.5k doesn't sound too bad, 55 hour weeks does.
It's not about a graduate or not, I wouldn't suggest anyone take it, under minimum wage, over WTD and probably just a way to get get as many as possible in the doors knowing most will jack it in and see through the long hours, low reward and slim prospects.
Work hard and one day my son this stapler will be yours....
Why not take it then leave when something better comes along of no other options now?
If it's an area of work that he's interested in then why not take it and see what the prospects are after 6 months/a year.
Or take it and keep looking for better opportunities.
It's easier to get a job when you've already got a job.
"Really? Peter on Dragon's Den does that sometimes...."
mudshark - i would have been skeptical of this also bar.
i bumped into an old school friend last weekend who got sidetracked by pot in his teens and fell off the rails/school etc
he had a kid a few years back - it seems to have turned his life around , he got a job to support him/kids mother. he ended up as a labourer - then supervisor for a transport company.
- then on one job the client asked if he wanted a job..... he is now the manager of my local parts shop - now that may not seem like a big job for some but i was genuinely chuffed that he had turned things around and someone had seen potential to give him the chance to be someone.
On the one hand £17.5k is better than dole money and it's easier to find a job when you've already got one.
But we use Enterprise and it looks like the main qualification to work there is be thick as .. and I'd say £17.5k is well overpaid for some of the muppets I've had to deal with.
Enterprise rent a car by any chance?
I wondered that, not a lease company though really. A good friend went to work for them out of uni and it was utterly miserable. A lot seems to depend which branch you end up - friends who got Guildford, or a busy branch progressed relatively quickly, whilst my friend ended up in the Haslemere branch, which had 2 staff - him and his boss, so it was dead man's shoes in terms of progression. It nearly killed him, he eventually jacked it in no better off financially than when he started.
When I got my first grad job in 2006 I was on 16k and ended up on site doing 12 hour days straight away for no extra cash as it was classed as "reasonable" overtime. Basically the grads were used as cheap labour and pretty much abused. I relocated for the job and was renting a flat near the office which I was never in as my site was located an hour from where I moved from. After four months of no training and generally being treated like crap I told them to get ****ed and went to work for a small consultancy where training was given and I got to work on some really interesting projects overseas.
I did a placement here (current job) in my last year of degree, and mine is very specific to my trade ( textile design with integrated technologies) . I work maybe 45-50 hrs a week on £20k
Yes really, but I don't think it was peter from Dragons Den.
17k for 55 hours?
Directions to the nearest McDonalds please.
You do what you need to do to get a job and career. In any case, 50 - 60 hours per week strikes me as pretty standard for an office-based job. He'll get paid much better after he's proven himself.
If he doesn't like the job - which is different from the hours - then reconsider.
Another point...
While looking for something better he'll learn a lot more from 6 months in a job than from 6 months on the sofa.
At the very least he'll learn if this is an area he want's to work in.
50 - 60 hours per week strikes me as pretty standard for an office-based job.
Crikey. Really? It sounds to me like the company are trying to get away with not employing enough people to me.