[Closed] Shooting in Paris... Spies and intelegence

I don't think the french intelligence agencies are quite as "informed" as ours is.

🙄

Roll away, rolly. Our anti terror laws and experience of dealing with terrorists far outweighs anything france have, but never mind that you just see it as a nationalistic slight and post emojis.

Maybe all those stories we get about planned attacks being thwarted are just pish designed to make us more fearful about the risk to us and wrongly confident in our security services.

Our anti terror laws and experience of dealing with terrorists far outweighs anything france have

Um, maybe look into the history of French North Africa before saying things like this.

I think if we truly knew the extent of intelligence the security services had to deal with we wouldn't be surprised that somethings slip through the net. Unfortunately, revelations by the likes of Wikileaks and Snowdon means that terrorists are increasingly able to avoid even our best methods of surveillance. The more we tie the hands of the security services on the basis of preventing a so called surveillance state means that we have to accept that sooner or later this sort of thing is going to happen. It's a sad world we live in...

Maybe all those stories we get about planned attacks being thwarted are just pish designed to make us more fearful about the risk to us and wrongly confident in our security services.

Um, maybe look into the history of French North Africa before saying things like this.

It's not a competition.

In recent cases in France it's simply that you can't imprison people because of what you suspect they might do or follow everyone you suspect 24/7. NI, H-block and the troubles show what happens when you start locking up and killing people without trial.

Moments before making a speech on the attacks, [url= https://twitter.com/markknoller/status/665281527526330369 ]President Obama was sitting next to[/url] probably the worlds #1 expert in spies, intelligence and terrorism, Henry Kissinger.

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Always a tragedy when innocent lives lost

jivehoneyjive - Member

Always a tragedy when innocent lives lost

Kissinger is certainly an expert in that.

unfitgeezer - Member
The other thread has gone in its usual fashion of bickering etc

it only took 1 reply b4 it descended into willy waving...

it only took 1 reply b4 it descended into willy waving...

kimbers - Member

unfitgeezer - Member
The other thread has gone in its usual fashion of bickering etc

it only took 1 reply b4 it descended into willy waving...

It is not me ...

There is no doubt we will experience another attack. We do however seem to be doing a good job so far of foiling them.

France has Europe's largest Muslim population which I suggest makes it more difficult for the French to track all suspects which are quite likely to be greater in number than we have to face and probably with a more sympathetic network. I think we in the UK also have a stronger relationship with the US and thus have better intelligence sharing and surveillance techniques. We also have first hand experience of fighting the IRA over many years.

jambalaya - Member
There is no doubt we will experience another attack. We do however seem to be doing a good job so far of foiling them.

It will happen.

The question is when and how to minimise the damage or how to stay one step ahead of them.

saying that he uk has better surveillence sounds like hubris, decades of experience with the IRA didnt stop the 7/7 bombings

kimbers - Member

saying that he uk has better surveillence sounds like hubris, decades of experience with the IRA didnt stop the 7/7 bombings

If they have the will they have the way.

@kimbers you cannot stop every plot, that's why I said we will have another attack. One will get through.

It's a sad world we live in...

Sums up my reaction to the rest of your post.

Either way, I can't help but feel immense sympathy with those in Paris at the moment. Truly horrific.

Edited.
Not sure realism is going to be wanted at the moment

Supposed to be going out in central London tonight with family.

I would assume Geography has a big part in it, the fact we are an island must make it easier to control who comes in and out.

We haven't had loads of 'refugees' entering the country either. I thought it was common knowledge that when Mainland Europe opened its doors to refugees that terrorist saw this as an opportunity to walk straight in.

Then there is the fact that France has been joining America in bombing Syria.

Whatever it's a very sad thing that has happened 🙁

wrecker - perhaps you need to spend a bit of time reading about the decades of terrorism on the French mainland in the 2nd half of last century. Almost 30 in the 80s alone with over 60 killed, far more than the ones in the UK in the same decade (approx 10 attacks and 30+ killed outside the sectarian violence in NI). Just because you haven't paid attention doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The French have as much experience in domestic terrorism as the UK.

We haven't had loads of 'refugees' entering the country either. I thought it was common knowledge that when Mainland Europe opened its doors to refugees that terrorist saw this as an opportunity to walk straight in.

The Charlie Hebdo attackers were born in France. The 7/7 London bombers were born in the UK. We have no idea where the Paris attackers were born, but there's no evidence at all that they came to France recently.

It's easy to think of the terrorist threat as stopping "them". It's much more difficult than that.

We haven't had loads of 'refugees' entering the country either. I thought it was common knowledge that when Mainland Europe opened its doors to refugees that terrorist saw this as an opportunity to walk straight in.

Randomly blaming refugees with no evidence is just displaying your own prejudices, the Charlie hebdo shooters grew up in France, 7/7 bombers in Bradford, France has plenty of disenfranchised youth of its own ripe for radicalisation.

Yes France started bombing Syria in september

This is the way to respond to both the refugee crisis and the Paris attacks:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/14/scotland-rothesay-bute-refugees-syria-welcome

Be more welcoming and caring, not less.

WHat Kimbers says

Bencooper how so?

It's just token gestures greatly after the event. A good decade+ after the event.

15 families on a small Scottish island isn't a token gesture for the people involved. What's needed is thousands more token gestures like this.

It's not an immediate solution. It's not hunting down and killing the terrorists. Because that's not a long-term plan.

Very sad and I despair at human civilisation most of the time these days. Lots of innocent lives lost for no reason.

Hora (and all)- Don't let this put you off your plans, routines, etc. There were 150(ish) killed in this attack, in a city with a population of over 2.25 million. What is the true probability that it would have been you if you were in Paris. Same goes for London (or any other large city). In reality the probability of you getting targeted or even being near the attack is miniscule.

The terrorist want you to be scared. That's the point. Just carry on as usual and don't play into their hands.

What has happened is truly awful and very difficult to comprehend. I hope France manages to get control.
Howver I have had concerns over the channel tunnel for months now, if refugees can just walk in what's to stop a terrorist with a bomb? Am I the only one to think that?

so called surveillance state

There is nothing "so called" about it. It is a surveillance state and becoming more so. Wether you are comfortable with that or not is a different thing.

Bencooper - unfortunately you could give every Syrian a palace in the UK and it wouldn't stop the terrorism. Re housing refugees isn't the answer either. Sorting out the problems in their country is the answer, not doing something that gives westerners a feel good factor

hora - Member
Bencooper how so?

It's just token gestures greatly after the event. A good decade+ after the event.

Don't let it be a token gesture.

Do the security services in the UK have a better rapport with "our" Muslims than the french?

wrecker - perhaps you need to spend a bit of time reading about the decades of terrorism on the French mainland in the 2nd half of last century. Almost 30 in the 80s alone with over 60 killed, far more than the ones in the UK in the same decade (approx 10 attacks and 30+ killed [b]outside the sectarian violence in NI[/b]). Just because you haven't paid attention doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Mainland GB attacks. Otherwise we can throw in the deaths in Algeria during the colonial times and it starts to get very complicated as to what counts as terrorism.

I don't think that we have better intelligence service than the French. Their problem if it is a problem is that they are one of the most open, inclusive and democratic societies in Europe. They have a very large population with a large population of Muslims that a small percentage of Radicals can hide behind.
We are an island state with policed borders where every aspect of our lives are micro managed by the government and security services, because of that we are possibly a harder target.
Time and time again the French amaze me with their attitude towards these atrocities.

Perhaps you could be a bit more selective?

FunkyDunc - Member
Bencooper - unfortunately you could give every Syrian a palace in the UK and it wouldn't stop the terrorism. Re housing refugees isn't the answer either. Sorting out the problems in their country is the answer, not doing something that gives westerners a feel good factor

I may be wrong here FD - but I think bencooper was giving an example of one type of action that shows we care and will take action to help others.

I think if we take action to be more fair on a global scale, economically and politically - we could cut out a large part of this tumour which causes the cancer of terrorism and war. Reduce inequality and remove a key driver for conflict. I know this will come over as naive and idealistic but I do think this is a large part of the answer.

Wrecker the point remain that France has experience of domestic terrorism comparable to what we experienced with the "troubles" you can prevaricate as much as you like but the facts dont support your initial assessment

Its not a big deal just accept it and move on

We can still debate whether our secret service/spies/troops/police are more awesome than theirs

Our anti terror laws and experience of dealing with terrorists far outweighs anything france have

There's lots we could do to make ourselves safer, but we have decades of aggressive foreign policy to contend with. Our mistakes in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria have made us less safe, not more.

But we still talk about 'intervention'. We still sell weapons to despotic regimes whose people aren't stupid, they know we're the enablers. We planted the seeds of this.

We planted the seeds of this.

Indeed.