[Closed] Shooting in Paris; casualties reported. Hope this isn't what it sounds like.

Indeed a worrying time for moderate Muslims.

I agree, mainly because you saw it necessary to include the word 'moderate' in that sentence, the implication being that there are many non-moderate muslims when there is very little evidence of that. IS/Al Qaida nutters are very good at exploiting the racial and cultural schisms between the west and Islam, sadly we are even better at reinforcing them with lazy bigotry.

Hard to know what IS wants

I'm not sure it is. Seems pretty obvious to me that the IS strategy is not too far off what the nazis strategy was in the 20s/30s. They want to stir up hatred and persecution of muslims across the west, so that those 'moderate' muslims support their cause. And from the lazy use of the term 'moderate muslim', the sensationalism of the media, to the outright idiocy of the likes of Britain First et al, you'd have to conclude that their strategy is working like a dream. It won't be long before we're embroiled in another war which will make previous middle east conflicts look like a minor skirmish. Scary times ahead I fear. Thank god I'm too old to be conscripted.

Do they look like they want to sit down and discuss compromise any time soon?

If you really want to know what the likes of ISIS want and where 5hey actually stand within the realms 9f Islam just google the word ,"khawarij" or "takfeeri". Google for Sayid Qutb the godfather of the modern day extremist. You'll get a picture of who and what these people are.

I used the term "moderate Christians" on page 2 of this thread. It's not lazy use of a term it's accurate use of a qualifier used to indicate that those being referred to are law abiding citizens who play a positive role in society, don't to impose their faith or convictions on others and don't let their faith dominate theri every word or action. I'll add "fundamentalist Christians", "devout Christians", "practicing Christians" and you can no doubt think of a few more to designate those who have higher levels of Christian commitment.

If the West stopped supporting Israel (which will never happen) there would be a regional apocalypse which would make the 1m people who have died in regional conflicts in the last 50 years pale into insignificance.

I for one don't think the West's support for Israel is the key factor in the rise of extremism. It's part of the rhetoric but not the cause. Osama B-L and Al-Q felt the West had not done enough to protect Muslims in The Balkans, IS is part of the Sunni-Shia sectarian war which has been going on for a very long time. If you are a Muslim dissatisfied with the West's support of Israel your responce wouldn't be to kill 100,000's of your fellow Muslims. Syria is in the midst of a civil war which hasn't the slightest to do with people's views on Israel

I think we can have a fair stab at what ISIS want:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

They even have a ISIS publication which spells out what they want.

I agree, mainly because you saw it necessary to include the word 'moderate' in that sentence, the implication being that there are many non-moderate muslims when there is very little evidence of that. IS/Al Qaida nutters are very good at exploiting the racial and cultural schisms between the west and Islam, sadly we are even better at reinforcing them wi

EDIT: also I out "moderate" and non-moderate are not afraid, this is what they wanted. I don't really care if they are afraid, I care more that they are neutralised either by imprisonment if possible or ultimately by their deaths

As I posted I seen numerous comments in the media and heard directly that the Muslim community particularly in Europe must do much more than it has been that it fully supports the open, free, democratic life we enjoy here and fully buy in to the value system which we have. Gonzy has always been clear about his views but some of the statements from representative groups have frankly been a bit weak. How about orgbaizing their own anti-radicalisation programme and demonstrating how information they are sharing with the police is helping to eradicate extremists in the UK and beyond ?

How does it sell the oil? Much off it gets sold to it's enemy Assad.

Apparently the Kurds buy oil from ISIS as well. Quite incredible, financing your enemy.

How about orgbaizing their own anti-radicalisation programme and demonstrating how information they are sharing with the police is helping to eradicate extremists in the UK and beyond ?

More casual bigotry. Why is it the responsibility of the many muslim friends I have to demonstrate what they are doing against extremism? You are making the extremely lazy assumption that they are somehow associated with extremism because they are muslims. Have you any idea what you sound like? Like I said above, think back to the 20s/30s and what the nazis did. This sort of rubbish is no different to what the average German used to say about Jewish people.

dazh - Member

More casual bigotry. Why is it the responsibility of the many muslim friends I have to demonstrate what they are doing against extremism? You are making the extremely lazy assumption that they are somehow associated with extremism because they are muslims. Have you any idea what you sound like? Like I said above, think back to the 20s/30s and what the nazis did. This sort of rubbish is no different to what the average German used to say about Jewish people.

if you want to use the Nazism analogy,it would be better applied to the thought that moderate Muslims are comparable with non-Nazi Germans.

Who or what is moderate though? Where is the line in regard to democracy, gender and sexual equality?

This does not paint a very attractive picture:

Time to hold my hands up. As someone from an Irish Catholic Family, we did very little to publicly denounce the IRA. I suppose that means that tacitly we were all broadly supportive of what they were up to

Sorry

binners - Member

Time to hold my hands up. As someone from an Irish Catholic Family, we did very little to publicly denounce the IRA. I suppose that means that tacitly we were all broadly supportive of what they were up to

Sorry

However, as others have said, the IRA and extremist Muslim groups have very different aims and agenda. The IRA never sought to change the laws, customs and the very democracy the whole of the UK and the rest of the world live in, they merely wanted certain things for Northern Ireland/Eire.

The IRA never sought to change the laws, customs and the very democracy the whole of the UK and the rest of the world live in,

we were all broadly supportive of what they were up to

just to be clear binners, the objectives or the execution?

No real point to make, but found this interesting in terms of how easily anyone can potentially be radicalised (to any viewpoint) and how easy it is to twist and shape opinion on such events.

Was discussing Paris with my Year 7 form this morning in a school with a VERY low number of non-white english students. All but one of them denounced the actions of the nutters but one lad (white, working class) was adamant that they were right to believe in something enough to die for it even if that meant killing others too. Only one in 30, but extrapolated lazily that's 50 students in this school already open to the ideas of extremism...

Conversely (and more positively), only one student answered "because they're Muslim" to the question "why do you think they did it?" - he was soon put in his place (by his classmates, not by me).

Soobalias - you must have accidentally turned your sarcasmometer off. Just flick it back on mate, and it'll all make sense 😉

I've read and watched quite a few things today that gave me pause for thought.

The first is a BBC interview which I think was recorded some time back - it reflects a balance of views from young british muslims but two of the participants are quite comfortable articulating views that to me at least are fairly abhorrent and not compatible with the secular democracy that most people in Britain value. My concern isn't whether their views are representative - surveys have already told us they are, more what kind of future is in hold for our society if we continue to allow these views to propagate:

The second thing I wanted to share is an audio blog from atheist journalist Sam Harris who appears to be well respected and writes for many of the world's best news publication. His analysis IS not of the last week's outrages in Paris, Kenya or Lebanon but again poses some very difficult questions that I'm not sure we as a society are necessarily ready / willing to answer:

https://soundcloud.com/samharrisorg/still-sleepwalking-01

The audio blog is quite long but well worth a listen and I'm genuinely interested in any reading any reactions from STW, either for or against the argument he's making

I'm trying to work out if the islamophobic types on this thread that repeatedly ignore facts in order to support their bigotry are actually closet white supremacists

The government (understandably) cannot get their heads around the fact/deal with the fact, that they are up against an ideology.. It doesn't have a central point to go and kill (like a Hollywood villain lair)..its an ideology that is internalised anywhere on the globe...and then secular groups perform their own acts....it's pretty scary really...

closet white supremacists

Bit late to this point from yesterday

Toyota 4x4's. Pretty much the number 1 vehicle of choice in the Middle East/desert. Widely recognised as the best by some margin.

All but one of them denounced the actions of the nutters but one lad (white, working class) was adamant that they were right to believe in something enough to die for it even if that meant killing others too. Only one in 30, but extrapolated lazily that's 50 students in this school already open to the ideas of extremism...

That's exactly why the armed forces puts so much effort into visiting schools. But obviously killing people for a belief in Queen and country isn't extremism...it's noble, brave and honorable.

@Colournoise - you might want to see what they teach the children in Syria. "Jihad. Jihd. We are going kill the Jews". It's ironic that what they are actually going to do is mainly to kill other Muslims

But obviously killing people for a belief in Queen and country isn't extremism...it's noble, brave and honorable.

Careful now. That sort of logical leap will just confuse people. Funnily enough I remember the army coming in to school. All I remember is some Dad's Army type with a massive moustache banging on about how we were being invaded by the IRA, and how if you joined the army you got to do all sorts of cool things like skiing and mountain climbing. Getting your legs blown off to protect the profits of a few oil and arms companies wasn't mentioned for some reason.

The most anti Islamic people I have ever encountered where not white

The most anti Islamic people I have ever encountered where not white

Wait, you don't have to be white to be anti-islamic? Who'd have thought.

As expected, there's a tremendous quantity of bollox spouted on this thread. In the interests of trying to find some constructive way forward, I though this was interesting ...

http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

“I didn’t like Saddam, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Bullshit. Maybe sincerely believed, bur bullshit.

“I didn’t like Saddam, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Bullshit. Maybe sincerely believed, bur bullshit.

Yes, of course there was war in fhe Saddam era - the US-supported war with Iran.

al-anfal?

Another interesting article:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/no-piers-morgan-how-destroy-islamic-state-1630388804

Hollande hasmade some bold pledges;

5,000 extra police posts in the next two years and no new cuts in the defence budget
Making it easier to strip dual nationals of their French citizenship if they are convicted of a terrorist offence, as long as this did not render them stateless
Speeding up the deportation of foreigners who pose "a particularly grave threat to the security of the nation"
Pushing for greater European action against arms trafficking and greater penalties for it in France

As I posted I seen numerous comments in the media and heard directly that the Muslim community particularly in Europe must do much more than it has been that it fully supports the open, free, democratic life we enjoy here and fully buy in to the value system which we have.

Wow, Hollande sure stepped up!

..like lifting UK residents who keep going on "holiday" to Syria, how dare they suggest such an abuse of our rights!

Hard to know what IS wants

As has been pointed out they're very clear what they want, and it's totally bonkers. They even have a five year plan including rather bonkers map of what countries they aim to have control of in five years.

All the background to them is there in the links already posted in this thread. I wish everyone would read it so they understand who they are, rather than picking up soundbites from facebook or the press that feed the ignorance.

nostoc - Member - Block User
“I didn’t like Saddam, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Bullshit. Maybe sincerely believed, bur bullshit.

A lot of them believe it, and they were the ones who lived through it:

This whole experience has been very familiar indeed to Doug Stone, the American general on the receiving end of this diatribe. “He fits the absolutely typical profile,” Stone said afterward. “The average age of all the prisoners in Iraq when I was here was 27; they were married; they had two children; had got to sixth to eighth grade. He has exactly the same profile as 80 percent of the prisoners then…and his number-one complaint about the security and against all American forces was the exact same complaint from every single detainee.”

JY No India. I was going to put that in the original post but I was interested to see who would jump to conclusions. Decades of violent conflict before and after the partion of India has lead to very entrenched attitudes on both sides. The slaughter of many Indians at the Kenya Mall siege and the Mumbai attacks is symptomatic.

DrJ Of course, I was responding to @yunki

Another interesting article:

This is part of the problem. In this thread there are two seemingly coherent, well researched articles which hold opposing views. The one DrJ posted says (interestingly, like the French muslims I work with) that ISIS are thugs/criminals interested in power who have co-opted their religion and convinced undereducated and easily influenced people that it's about religion. The other, I CBA to search through the thread until i find it, tells us it's a real religious movement and needs to be addressed as such.

Whilst it's not uncommon to find opposing views of the same thing, when neither of these are particularly supportive of ISIS (although the latter comes closer), it's concerning that nobody can decide whether it's fish or fowl. We can't really dismantle ISIS (beyond killing them all and letting the god of your/their choice sort em out) without understanding what it is we're dismantling otherwise elements of it will develop into something worse or at least different as it's hard to imagine what worse would look like.

“I didn’t like Saddam, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Bullshit. Maybe sincerely believed, bur bullshit.

Correct. Iran Iraq war. Around 1.25 - 1.5 million casualties for starters. Short memories. Or was that war caused by western imperialists as well?

Yes.

interference by the "west" and suppression of democratic movements (propping up Shah and then supporting Hussein) was certainly one of the causes of the Iran-Iraq war, but not the only one.

Reading for anyone who still thinks Blair and Bush started this....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Game

irc - Member - Block User
“I didn’t like Saddam, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Bullshit. Maybe sincerely believed, bur bullshit.
Correct. Iran Iraq war. Around 1.25 - 1.5 million casualties for starters. Short memories.

Or someone too young to remember that war, as opposed to Gulf 2

@atlaz IS is just a more virulent form of an Islamist fundamental movement. In reality there are many, Al-Q, Al-Shabib, Taliban, Hamas, Al-N etc. Have a look at the last Vicenews video I posted. It's my contention such behaviour exists throughout the world, perhaps not as publically but the attitudes and education certainly do.

JY No India. I was going to put that in the original post but I was interested to see who would jump to conclusions.