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bartyp - MemberFact is though, that anti-semitic attacks are sharply on the increase in Europe.
It's inevitable tbh. There's a creeping tolerance and valediction of anti-islamic and anti-arab sentiment, it's the xenophobia you can get away with most. And other flavours- pikeys, eastern europeans, the unemployed...
But racism and intolerance don't colour nicely within the lines, as soon as you say "minority X can be treated badly" you're inevitably saying "minorities can be treated badly". And the sort of person that's drawn to one manifestation of intolerance will naturally tend to be more open to another.
I think I could put this better but I keep editing it and never getting it quite how I want it. The bottom line is, you can't open the door to one sort of shitebaggery and complain when its mates come in with it. Intolerance breeds intolerance.
Not everyone is a sophisticated as the STW big hitters and I suspect the a majority of the great British public would rather Muslims of any sort were just not here in the UK. Thats not to say theres animosity to the individuals, just the practice itself which seems at best contrary to the established way of life and at worst providing tacit approval of murder and the spread of terror.
@Chewkw you've missed cutting off the supply chain from your list of solutions, kimbers posted a link to Turkeys part in sustaining that IS and killing its own citizens rather than allowing the Kurds to sort them out on the ground.
Given the part Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia play in fueling these civil wars wtf are we supposed to achieve by dropping bombs here and there? Its a futile waste of our money and life without fixing causes of the problem.
So I would suggest we need to face up to the interpretation of the religion that are issues here, fgm, female oppression, homophobia, integration and restrict our involvement in the middle east to financial and political.
It was a secular country under Saddam
That's not true. Islam was the state religion of Iraq from at least 1970 onward.
Saddam was a 'weddings and funerals' Muslim. He certainly wasn't a fundamentalist.
There was a large Christian community, which has largely gone. The mass killing and exodus of Christians since Saddam was deposed has been regularly featured on the news.
I cant argue about this all day, but under Saddam there was a state where you could get on regardless of religion. That's gone and been replaced by Shia or Sunnis fundamentalists depending on where you live. I'm astonished this is disputeddisputed, its been on the news ovwr and over, even more so since Isis got started.
I suspect the a majority of the great British public would rather Muslims of any sort were just not here in the UK. Thats not to say theres animosity to the individuals, just the practice itself which seems at best contrary to the established way of life and at worst providing tacit approval of murder and the spread of terror.
I just don't know where to start with this 😕
You've squeezed so much ignorance into one paragraph !
+1 to Kimbers
Once again failing to grasp that 99.998% (or whatever it is) of people of muslim faith DON'T hold these extreme views.
I'd hate for our country to become a single faithed, white christian nation. Our diversity is what makes us great. It's not 'contrary' to our way of life, it's part of it - our way of life encompasses sharing our island with fellow brits of all faiths and no faith at all. CofE-ism, Catholicism, , Islamism, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jediism, Rastafarianism, etc....... you're all just British to me.
jambalaya - MemberOne of the news channels did a piece on ISIS funding, most of it came from the central bank of Mosul about $2bn equivalent. Oil sales / black market is about $500m, money from hostage ransoms, selling artifacts etc. The Saudi / bank funding point from Corbyn is a red herring. If the US thought that would have made a difference they would have done it long ago.
That argument holds up for about 30 seconds. Yes, ISIS sell oil and artifacts to fund their activities but they didn't emerge into the world holding oil fields and territory containing important historic sites. How were they able to mount a massive insurgency in Iraq? How were they able to engage the worlds military super powers in battle and mount sustained bombing campaigns all over Iraq and Jordan?
Just like Al-Queda, they are funded by Saudi. The Wahhabist brand of Sunni Islam is the basis for the radical form of Islam practiced by these groups and it's the state religion of Saudi Arabia.
You can disagree all you want pal, the evidence suggests otherwise. Whilst not all muslims are terrorists most terrorists are muslim and the countries that operate under muslim rule are authoritarian hell holes for anyone who doesnt conform.
Leave em too it their countries, anyone can have any religous believes they like whilst here but as soon as it contradicts our standards it should be stopped without fear of being called prejudice.
Islamic leaders would do well to introduce a modern liberal form of thei religion in the UK rather shipping in the medievel version thats ****ed up the originating countries.
😯
Remembers where he was at 8.34am on the 19th November when he agreed with THM... 😯
wilburtLeave em too it their countries, anyone can have any religous believes they like whilst here but as soon as it contradicts our standards it should be stopped without fear of being called prejudice.
Should we do the same with Christianity? A lot of it contradicts the law of the land.
wilburt
Islamic leaders would do well to introduce a modern liberal form of thei religion in the UK rather shipping in the medievel version thats **** up the originating countries.
That's already the case. The medievel (sic) version that's being shipped in is coming from Saudi Arabia, you know, oil rich friend of the US and UK, that Saudi Arabia.
😀
If I'm honest, I'm a bit of a bigot. I'm not keen on religion but it's Muslims that really wind me up. If there's a personal silver lining to the current climate it's that I'm freed from the reigns of political correctness to say how I really feel. Except about Israelis...as they're the ones who are properly putting the boot into Islam while the rest of us lilly livered hand-wringers pussyfoot around.
Should we do the same with Christianity? A lot of it contradicts the law of the land
We had that fight here a few hundred years ago.
Whilst not all muslims are terrorists most terrorists are muslim
Tamil Tigers, IRA, SOE, ANC, Red Hand, Colombian People's Army, Khmer Rouge, UDA, UVF, Shining Path.
There's been more non-Islamic terrorist attacks in Europe since 2001 than there has Islamic terror attacks. The Islamic terror attacks have killed more people though.
Whilst not all [i]straight people[/i] are [i]homophobes[/i] most [i]homophobes[/i] are [i]straight[/i]
Your quote, but replacing your 'muslim' and 'terrorist' with two alternates.
So should we also outlaw being straight. Just so we can weed out the few?
I would like our stance on religion to be that people are perfectly entitled to practice and teach whatever they want, but schools here (ALL schools) will replace "Religious Instruction" with Comparitive Studies of Religion.
Expose any child to the idea that all religions, whilst being different from each other, all claim to be the true religion and growing learning humans will instantly see through the idiocy.
Religion will then, over time, wither on the branch.
You can disagree all you want pal, the evidence suggests otherwise. Whilst not all muslims are terrorists most terrorists are muslim and the countries that operate under muslim rule are authoritarian hell holes for anyone who doesnt conform.Leave em too it their countries, anyone can have any religous believes they like whilst here but as soon as it contradicts our standards it should be stopped without fear of being called prejudice.
Islamic leaders would do well to introduce a modern liberal form of thei religion in the UK rather shipping in the medievel version thats **** up the originating countries.
Jebus H Christ on a bicycle!
Where do you hear this stuff?
There are 1.6 billion people following Islam in the world, if they really did want to, you'd be dead by now.
99.997%* of Muslims aren't living in IS.
In 2013 there were [b]TWO[/b] religiously motivated terrorist attacks in Europe. There were 150 that weren't. In 2011 there were none out of 174! Globaly Islamic terrorism accounted for only 6% of Terroism between 1980 and 2005.
Think living in a Muslim country is horrific for women, try living in a Christian one. Eritrea has a 90%+ rate of FGM and is split almost 50/50! ****stan, Indonesia and Kosovo are all muslim countries and have all had Female heads of state, Bangladesh has had two!
*the 0.003 includes those who are effectively hostage in their country
An argument this morning after I discovered parents are pullin thier kids out of a school trip to London on 4th December at my kids school. The coke-can bomb and its ease of use has been mentioned.
Now I REALLY am thinking we shouldnt go to winter wonderland on Saturday...
😐
I would like our stance on religion to be that people are perfectly entitled to practice and teach whatever they want, but schools here (ALL schools) will replace "Religious Instruction" with Comparitive Studies of Religion.
Expose any child to the idea that all religions, whilst being different from each other, all claim to be the true religion and growing learning humans will instantly see through the idiocy.
Religion will then, over time, wither on the branch.
^This. It boils my piss when my kids come home and start waffling on about Jesus, Mary and that cuckold fella as if it's a true story. I ask 'em if they've been learning about any other religions = nope.
It'd be best (IMO) if they studied them all (maybe a term each) then were left to make up their own minds, although I'd probably like it if they used the final term before Xmas to mock all of them and make it into a comedy play instead of the standard bullshit Xmas shite I'm forced to go watch now 😛
An argument this morning after I discovered parents are pullin thier kids out of a school trip to London on 4th December at my kids school. The coke-can bomb and its ease of use has been mentioned.Now I REALLY am thinking we shouldnt go to winter wonderland on Saturday...
WTF!?
Now I REALLY am thinking we shouldnt go to winter wonderland on Saturday...
I'd guess you're massively more likely to die driving there than be killed by a jihadi elf.
You shouldn't go to Winder Wonderland but that's because it's likely to be a vision of hell's gift shop, not because you're likely to die.
Aside from the cliche at 87% of statistics are made up, this repeated point that 0.003% of Muslims are IS and thus extremism in the Muslim population is not a major issue is nonsense. Yes a minority of Muslims hold extremist views but it's a much higher number who are supprters or willing to turn a blind eye and blame the West for all their problems. 27% of British Muslims questioned in a survey thought Charlie Ebdo journalists where responsible for their fate, that if you insult Islam you should expect retribution. On the news last night a journalist outside a Mosque in Belgium was threatened with violence on camera basically for "disrespecting" the mosque. There is a very significant and virulent minority who directly or indirectly harbour extremist views, it's more like 5, 10 or even 15 % IMO. As per the MEMRI links I've posted mainstream Middle East media has a very extreme and anti-Semitic, anti-West element
That list of terrorist groups in ancient and not relevant to today. A Simgaporean Muslim posted yesterday in a post shared many times that it's time for Muslims to accept there is a problem and take the lead in solving it.
Following yesterday's anti-Semitic attach in Marseilles a Muslim women wearing a veil was slashed with a blade. Very worrying an an equally abhorrent crime
The encrypted messaging service Telegram has shut down many IS accounts today but also posted a pretty stark responce - in French my summary
[i]We deplore the events in our beautiful city of Paris but we must take our share of responsibility as our government takes outrageously high taxes from us and spends that money on pointless wars and creating a parasitic social paradise for North African migrants[. It's a disgrace to see France in the hands of this short sighted socialist government who have ruined this beautiful place[/i]
On Christianity the Bible says you must respect the laws of the land. The Koran says the opposite, that it takes precedence over any man made law. Clearly most Muslims put this aside and seek to live peacefully and abide by the law but there are those that do not and any preacher is justified in Islam to contradict that stance.
Of course Israel does things which make us in the Liberal West wince but they have been living with extremists for many many years and have endured centuries of violence and murder purely for their religion. We may not like what we see but they have the blueprint for survival and dealing with this growing menace.
School trips above. The French have suspended all school trips. The U.K. Foreign office has thus advised the same, no school trips to France.
We'll be going to Paris next week and staying for a month. I will not allow terrorists to overturn my way of life. We will be careful but we have been used to seeing the streets with troops and heavily armed police since January.
Go skiing and support the French, do not allow the terrorist to disrupt the economy more than they have already
@theotherjonv - I echo your sentiments about how different nationalities and cultures add to our nation but lets be clear there is a line which cannot be crossed.
Jambalaya, and how many Christian/ateist/jewish/pastafarians think CH were sailing a little close to the mark. Is it 5,10 or even 15%? In your humble oppinion? No one outside of IS thinks they deserved it, but everyone can see the cause and effect.
Imsult someone they'll take it on the chin
Insult 100 people and one will probably heckle you.
Insult 1000 people and you'll probably get punched in the face by one of them.
Insult 10k people you'll get hoofed in the slats.
Insult 1.6 billion people? Repeatedly?
You'd get just the same response if you walked upto a KKK or Westbro Babtist (both christian) group and did just the same.
On Christianity the Bible says you must respect the laws of the land. The Koran says the opposite,
Bollox
@grum, to try and imply that anti-Islamic violence is anywhere close to that endured by Jews is ludicrous
The French soldier of North African descent shot dead kids and a Rabi in Tolouse
The returning Belgian IS fighter went to the Jewish museum and shot people dead
Couibaly was on his way to a Jewish school when he shot the police woman and followed that up the next day by the deadly attack on the supermarket
I have no doubt there are increasing racist attacks on Muslims (as I posted an example of above) and that's deplorable but it pales in comparison with anti-Semitic attacks.
People are insulted all day everyday. Right now it's only Muslims who are slaughtering fellow Muslims in there 10,000's for having divergent views. Do people think Shia Mulims deserve to be slaughtered by Sunnis for making drawings of Mohammed's nephew ?
Jamby, proof or your just spreading lies to justify your own racism....
Obvious straw man, is obvious.
Do people think Shia Mulims deserve to be slaughtered by Sunnis for making drawings of Mohammed's nephew ?
What do you want us to post as a response? Examples of recent violence by other religions?
Violence by Buhdist monks in SE Asia?
The rise of the KKK?
Atheist China's crackdown on various religions?
Heck you only have to look to facebook to see some pretty disgusting things being said about non whites/christians for things as simple as wearing a headscarf or the building of a place of worship.
In 2013 there were TWO religiously motivated terrorist attacks in Europe. There were 150 that weren't. In 2011 there were none out of 174! Globaly Islamic terrorism accounted for only 6% of Terroism between 1980 and 2005.
There is a link to report just above your post which was (i think) intended to excuse islam actually shows the vast majority of terrorist deaths in Europe in the last 15 years have been caused by muslims in the name of their religion.
Your other point about only a small proportion of muslims being supporters of terrorism has been dealt with by another poster so I wont repeat it.
[quote=jambalaya opined]@kimbers, it's a fact.
There is a massive difference between a Jamba fact and an actual fact in that the later is true and the former is something you made up
As Muslims and Jews share the same books if the jews have to obey the law then so will the Muslims.
Do jews have to obey the law Jamby ?
I realise logic is wasted here as , others have noted, its just your bigotry at play here.
the countries that operate under muslim rule are authoritarian hell holes for anyone who doesnt conform
complete and utter bollocks..
get in the sea you ignorant little turd and stop spouting your daft made up beleifs to the world
There is a link to report just above your post which was (i think) intended to excuse islam actually shows the vast majority of terrorist deaths in Europe in the last 15 years have been caused by muslims in the name of their religion.Your other point about only a small proportion of muslims being supporters of terrorism has been dealt with by another poster so I wont repeat it.
On point 1.
I'll excuse Islam all I like you ignorant bigot. The 1,590,999,990 Muslims that weren't involved in Terrorism anyway.
All that economist link proves its that a VERY small number of terrorist attacks are committed in the name of Islam, unfortunately they were very effective and distort the statistics somewhat. It's still an average of about 1 attack per year.
You may as well draw the conclusion that the second biggest terrorist threat to Europe is unfortunately nationalism.
On point 2.
Maybe you should repeat it. Sometimes you can realize how stupid stuff sounds only when you say it out lout.
cool video with expert debunking some anti-islamic prejudices being expressed by CNN reporters (sorry if it's been posted)
[url=
Ken O'Keefe telling it straight,...
^This. It boils my piss when my kids come home and start waffling on about Jesus, Mary and that cuckold fella as if it's a true story. I ask 'em if they've been learning about any other religions = nope.
Err.. your schools is doing it wrong then. Unless they're a Catholic school perhaps it which case, what exactly did you expect?
[quote=thisisnotaspoon said] Sometimes you can realize how stupid stuff sounds only when you say it out lout.
Indeed 😆
My daughter's school is a Church maintained CofE school, with 50% of its intake going to churchgoing cardcarrying families. I was worried about whether that would lead to bias, as while we have nothing against religion or religious types, only against bigotry of all flavours - neither my wife nor I wanted indoctrination.
We have been incredibly pleased with the way RE has been taught so far. Very even handed. And yes, they do have an act of worship most days, as part of their usual assemblies but the actual worship bit is a fraction of it, alongside the general housekeeping and keeping score of house points and the like. And if you don't want to worship - then just stay quiet and respect those that do for the 2 minutes it takes.
jambalaya - Member@kimbers, it's a fact.
JAMBAFACT.
So where exactly in the qu'ran does it say "You must not respect the laws of the land"
START THE CLOCK!
VERY small number of terrorist attacks are committed in the name of Islam, unfortunately they were very effective and distort the statistics somewhat. It's still an average of about 1 attack per year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks
Banding about titles of posters being "ignorant" on a thread like this is as cheap a shot as having a go a Hora for buying another poorly sized bike 😀 It appears even our "Western" government are ignorant of a lot of things, probably to protect our own interests as much as anything. Who here is honestly so clued up and has such a great solution for everyone that they can claim to not have a certain level of ignorance of some issues?
Which is why I come back to asking, what do "we" wish to achieve following the atrocious attacks like those in Paris? Even before the other posters questions of what to do- what is our goal? Protect our own interests seems as good a general guess as any, just like any other nation regardless of which values, society or beliefs they hold dear???