[Closed] Shooting in French Alps

Absolutely horrific 🙁

It always baffles me when I read of drug/armed robbery related crime which results in such drastic violence, e.g. shooting and beating up an 8 year old and killing the rest of the family. Doesn't seem to fit in with my understanding of how most of these guys operate (i.e. it's sparked worldwide interest, can't imagine it will be long before they are caught).

A mountaineering mate was out in that area for a month recently. He sealed up the vents on his van before he left, since apparently it's not uncommon for robbers to gas the vans through the vents while people are in bed and then rob them. 🙁

With a new baby myself, a 9 month old, it's started to trigger the most horrible feelings and fear inside me when I see things like this.

So horrific.

ETA: Reading on, it's just made me well up.

I read that the family were reported missing by their friends that they were camping with.
So when the police found them, must have realised it was the same family, so why did they not wonder where the 4yr old was!??

I cannot fathom what that poor girl must have gone through in the 8hours she was under her mums body. With any hope she was asleep.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2011/nov/18/road-casualty-uk-map ]A little perspective.[/url]

If every road death made similar headlines and instilled as much fear and dread then riding our bikes or walking to town migh be a little safer.

@ edukator - i think the issue is that a road death is (hopefully) a horrible accident whereas these killings were deliberate, brutal and senseless. i know what you mean though - we live in fear of the psychos but happily drive and cycle to work risking life and limb without really thinking about it.

I was just reading Le Figaro and various commentators have been drawing comparisons to the Dominci Affair of 1952...the similarities being the rural French location, Brit victims and murders in a car.
Hopefully this will actually be solved unlike that crime.

[i]- we live in fear of the psychos but happily drive and cycle to work risking life and limb without really thinking about it. [/i]

who is this "we" you speak of ?

I can't remember the name, but there's a principle in criminology relating to fear of crime.

those who fear (violent) crime the most (elderly women) actually tend to be the victim of the fewest crimes, whereas those who fear crime the least (young men) are most likely to be victim to it. much debate around how much of the fearful groups' "avoidance" actions impact the figures.

it then goes on to different categories of crime that we fear and the likelihood of it actually happening - some interesting stats.

worth digging out for a read if you can be bothered googling it.

Horrific stuff. Love that area too.

Poor cyclist may have been an unwilling witness.

There was a programme on a while back about the Russian Mafia turning up in southern France. A local police chief said that the increase in senseless violence was incredible. Whilst the local bad guys would just shoot and beat people the Russian bad guys seemed to take pleasure from the job. The example he used was two prostitutes were killed, sadly nothing out of the ordinary except that these two were skinned 😯 it took about 4 years for them to kill each other off and for it to calm down again.

I hope it wasn't linked to that gun toting open topped car driver in Paris earlier in the year.

Makes you consider your own safety as you never know what you may come across.

A few times whilst out for a night ride in the countryside me and my mates have ended up innocently dragged into decidedly dodgy situations and in places you would never expect too.

One winter night we took refuge in a little bus shelter in clumber park to fix a puncture out of the rain. Only to realise we were sharing the shelter with a substantial amount of drugs and the owners turned up to collect whilst we were still there !!!

Another time some guys in a transit, after a brief conversation realised they wouldnt get our bikes easily, instead offered us the use of the young teen girl they had in the back of the van for a fiver. She seemed quite happy about it but we obviously declined.

Youth setting fire to stolen cars in the forest is a regularish occurance too.

Ahhh the fun of the winter night ride...

10 quid bet says that this was Mossad. British Iraqi victims (the bloke being a computer expert) and a Professional style killing, reports I've read have mentioned double taps to the head.

10 quid bet says that this was Mossad. British Iranian victims and a Professional style killing, reports I've read have mentioned double taps to the head.

Bugger me I just came on to make exactly this point!!!!!!!!

My thought was that he could have been passing secrets to the Iranians and Mossad took them out as he worked in the satellite and aerospace industry.

Mossad don't **** about, and who can blame them...

Doesn't exempt them from killing the women and children as well, personally if it was them I don't care less what Hamas do in revenge.

My other theory is that the cyclist was Lance Armstrong and the French had to murder the witnesses as well.

British Iraqi victims

The father was from Iran not Iraq. Doesn't seem like a Mossad job to me anyway, far too messy, give them a bit of credit.

So Loddrik, you think Mossad have immunity to do whatever they like ?

I think lodders and bwaarp meant to say they thought it was Moss Side.

Horrendous incident, but thankfully rare in 'our'part of the world,in mexico it wouldn't get a mention.....

Maybe it was the cyclist who was the target and the family were killed because they were the witnesses.

Nobody knows what happened yet, so its all just speculation.

If every road death made similar headlines and instilled as much fear and dread then riding our bikes or walking to town migh be a little safer.

If it was Mossad I would eat my hat!

So Loddrik, you think Mossad have immunity to do whatever they like ?

Didn't say that whatsoever. But they are bloody good at what they do, if a little over zealous.

If I were an Israeli, hated by all around you with nations who want to 'wipe you from the face of the earth', I'd probably be pretty pleased that Mossad were on my side and not the other.

But let's not get stuck in to this debate in this thread...

Sounds like a UDF hit to me.

Surely Mossad could just shoot their target and leave the rest? They'd be out of France before any witnesses had finished describing them.

I don't know about you guys but I'm finding it increasingly hard to hear about crimes involving kids. I've got two young girls and I'm becoming concerned about the world that they are inheriting. makes me want to pack up the basics and head off somewhere remote.

deadlydarcy - Member

Sounds like a UDF hit to me.

Nah, if it had been the UDF they'd have shot themselves in the feet whilst attempting to clear a stoppage in their poorly maintained WW2 era weapons before butchering each other in a petty squabble over drugs money.

It's more likely to be EDF.

deadlydarcy - Member

Sounds like a UDF hit to me.

Though they moved onto Black & Deckers

Been having some funny moments about this as a couple of years ago I had a very unpleasant climbing experience in the Combe D'Ire the result of which was that I honestly and perfectly rationally that I was going to die there (I didn't...) and this has bought back the utter, utter terror impressively vividly.

For those that don't know it, as close to the lake as this is, it's an incredibly quiet spot. When we were there in midsummer we saw no one all day on the hill, no cars and only the cyclists heading up into the forest. In fact from the photos shown so far it's a really odd place for them to have parked as the main reason for heading up that way is a mile or so further up the road.

[quote=rogerthecat ] deadlydarcy - Member
> Sounds like a UDF hit to me.
Though they moved onto Black & Deckers
Nah. That would be MDF.

.... it's an incredibly quiet spot. When we were there in midsummer we saw no one all day on the hill, no cars and only the cyclists heading up into the forest.

In other words the perfect location for a professional hit ?

paulevans - Member

makes me want to pack up the basics and head off somewhere remote.

Alps, maybe?

The father was from Iran not Iraq. Doesn't seem like a Mossad job to me anyway, far too messy, give them a bit of credit.

He was born in Iraq according to the news reports.

Gangsters/robbers don't head shoot a moving cyclist let alone heads bobbing up and down in a car at short range.

Again 10 quid says it was a professional hit...... Mossad, Hamas, Iran or whatever.....bet says they shot the family....girl gets out runs....gets shot in the shoulder....cyclist rides past....gets shot in the head....shooters panic having expected the place to have been quiet and/or not expecting to have to shoot children and scarper without making sure the girl outside the car and the girl inside the car are dead.....

Considering during the second world war only about 10 percent of soldiers on the front line actually aimed to kill, I somehow doubt the current line being pedalled about local drug dealers/carjackers doing it (especially since that area is akin to the UK's cotswolds). I can't fathom them being able to coldly shoot that many people dead in that manner without any kind of weapon training and psychological conditioning.

Anyway, that's my bet and I hope the poor girl gets better. Hopefully they are young enough that it won't traumatize them as much as say an older teenager.

Yes thanks for the correction bencooper, not sure why I got that arse about face.

No idea whether it's the perfect spot for a professional hit as I've not done one. Having said that, two miles up the road you'd have a carpark which can only be approached from one direction by car with clear sights up the road/track in any of the three directions. In the trees to muffle the sound, much further from houses/places of work, even less through traffic, much more likely spot for a car to be parked long term.

As I say, unlike most of you I know **** all about being a hitman but if it were me I'd have gone a bit further up the valley.

As I say, unlike most of you I know **** all about being a hitman....

I only do the occasional drive by these days - too much competition from youngsters, and the money's pisspoor.

From the Paris Match in regards to the cyclist killed.

Employed for twenty years in the field of metallurgy - the company is a subsidiary of Cezus Areva manufactures zirconium alloys for nuclear power plants - it was paternity leave when he decided to take the road to Come 'Ire, in the town of Horses.

I've upped my stakes, anyone want to place a 100 quid bet with me on it being Mossad?

If it is true that they had been double tapped to the head I can tell that's not easy to do, especially with a silenced weapon at short range in a cramped situation such as a car.

Sounds like someone with some training. As to it being secret services from another country that will never be known really.

A silencer wasn't used, a witness described hearing the gunfire lasting about 30 seconds. And as it generally becomes very obvious when Mossad is involved in assassinations, I for that reason, personally reject the suggestion that the Israeli government would even consider carrying out that sort of messy operation which involves the indiscriminate killing of witnesses in the home territory of a UN Security Council member. I also reject the possibility that it was carried out by the agents of any other government. The french police suggestion that it might have been a family feud sounds more reasonable. Or even simply the work of a madman.

Mossad are the people who killed a bloke by putting a bomb in a mobile phone, cant see them doing such a messy job. They even left shell casings behind. As for leaving living witnesses that sounds like amateur hour.

I have read Tom Clancy books so consider myself a world expert 😉

The link in in the OP says an armed gang had been reported at 1am attempting to carjack a Peugeot 205.
The police are clearly dealing with some real desperadoes.

There have been loads of instances of robbery in the mountains around there going back 20 or more years so it's not inconceivable that it's "only" a car jacking gone wrong. The problem with a lot of those situations is that once someone starts shooting either intentionally because they're a nutter or because they get nervous, it escalates. Loads of instances of that sort of thing in the US where a simple robbery turns into a multiple murder.

The French are almost communist is their approach to cars and taxing them.

Most cars you see in France are French and small to medium diesel poverty buckets. (206, 306, sort of stuff)

Driving in France you soon notice around the Holiday spots that if it's an expensive car (BMW / Audi / Range Rover) it will have a German / Lux / NL or British plate on it.

It would make sense that car jackers would surely target the spots where the expensive cars were. If an armed gang will car jack a 205 diesel (£300?) and somebody will threaten you with a Rambo knife for a bike it's not beyond the realms of possibility that this is a car jack gone very wrong.

Could also be a family dispute etc.

At the moment it's a tragedy for 2 little girls who I hope recover from this somehow.

police want to talk to the murdered mans brother. Three people in a car shot in the front of the head, killer was sitting in the front passenger seat.

The French are almost communist is their approach to cars and taxing them.

the french police are in favour of the car industry being publicly owned ?

good for them, i've had such a negative opinion of them in the past

killer was sitting in the front passenger seat

Who then gathered up all his bullet casings, got out of the door, closed the door, and scattered the casings on the ground outside?

Just reading the [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19506889 ]Q&A: Mystery over shootings near Lake Annecy, France[/url] on the Beeb. I'm still a bit flummoxed over it taking eight (or thereabouts) hours to find Zeena. It says:

[b]Why did it take eight hours to find Zeena?[/b]

The police who sealed off the crime scene were under orders not to disturb the bodies in the car before a forensics team arrived, Mr Maillaud said. Given the gravity of the crime, officers were dispatched from Paris, he said. Furthermore, the first police at the scene did not know there were two children in the family group until a link was established with the campsite. "Firemen, technicians and doctors all looked into the car through the holes in the windows but none of them saw the girl," said Lt-Col Benoit Vinnemann of the local gendarmerie. A helicopter with thermal imaging was also used to inspect the scene but it did not detect Zeena either.

Surely the first police on the scene would, while not disturbing the bodies,car, etc., or at least causing as little disturbance as possible, at least open the car and check that everyone was dead, no? Just because you've come across a shooting, it doesn't automatically mean everyone in the car is dead? Unless of course, their heads were blown to bits I guess. Hmmm.

[i]Who then gathered up all his bullet casings, got out of the door, closed the door, and scattered the casings on the ground outside?[/i]

my guess would be there from when they got out to shoot the cyclist and eldest girl.

Given that it was too messy for a professional hit I'm counting out govt agency types and pro hitmen. I'm going with criminals or terrorists. Wouldn't bet the house on it though.

As tasteless speculation goes fellas, this is a doozy.

You should read the equivalent on pistonheads, even more armchair detectives over there

Could also be a family dispute etc.

Three people in a car shot in the front of the head, killer was sitting in the front passenger seat.

As tasteless speculation goes fellas, this is a doozy.

Family roadtrip.. it's fairly obvious to me that this was just an argument about which music to have on.. the cyclist just happened to be passing at the wrong moment and got caught up in the tantrum..

case closed

As for leaving living witnesses that sounds like amateur hour.

The cyclist visually I.D'd the shooter(s). Which means the shooter(s) didn't disguise his face.

He must have been known to the family otherwise he wouldn't have shot the sister/violence of the head injury to fracture her skull as they all could have I.D him if left alive.

[i]You should read the equivalent on pistonheads, even more armchair detectives over there[/i]

You know what, I think I'll pass.

I was watching the news last night geting increasingly annoyed. Before the family had been officialy named (have they yet?) the TV cameras were in the next-door neighbour's garden, shooting footage of the back of the family's house. Plus, the neighbour gave an interview saying that the poor chap in question had said something 'interesting' before they went away.

Now, if I were the neighbour and a journo knocked on my door saying the family next door had been brutally murdered and could he please peer over my fence to film stuff that was nothing other than voyeuristic and perhaps could he ask me some questions to feed all the pointless speculation, he'd have been told to **** right off.

Reckon they were filming a Mrs.Marple special and it all went wrong

IHN when my sis in laws best friend was murdered she had a Daily Mail reporter knocking non-stop on her door and shouting through her letter box.

Yeah, it's terrible isn't it?

Good thing you have enough decency to not contribute to the pointless speculation in this case, eh?

Mrs.Marple

She get married? I'm happy for her.

If the shooter was known to the family why didn't he know there was another little girl in the car?

Good thing you have enough decency to not contribute to the pointless speculation in this case, eh?

yeah, 'cos the family and the world at large are sat glued to STW in the hope that someone's speculation will shed light on the issue..

should we show our respect by not mentioning the case to friends and colleagues too..?

[i]should we show our respect by not mentioning the case to friends and colleagues too..? [/i]

Tasteless speculation is tasteless speculation, no matter who it's between.

I think I know who did this, the government will never acknowledge it but I suspect the Mysterons are responsible.
[img] [/img]

Mrs.Marple

She get married? I'm happy for her.

Tasteless speculation is tasteless speculation, no matter who it's between.

When a wet professionally-offended type like me thinks you're being a bit sensitive...

"If the shooter was known to the family why didn't he know there was another little girl in the car?"

Case solved !

Rubber Bucaneer...... Where is Capt Scarlett when you need him?

[i]When a wet professionally-offended type like me thinks you're being a bit sensitive... [/i]

Maybe.

But then I see this kind of thing on the Beeb news site, and it really ****s me off:

[b]Are you in the area near Lake Annecy? Send us your comments using the form below.[/b]

A mountaineering mate was out in that area for a month recently. He sealed up the vents on his van before he left, since apparently it's not uncommon for robbers to gas the vans through the vents while people are in bed and then rob them.

Really - seems more like an internet rumour to me, don't let them gas you - seal yourself in a box and suffocate instead. Presumably if they are 'gassing' people it is either with some anaesthetic like ether, or chloroform or going for a kill with CO. Either approach could easily be detected with an alarm of the type commonly found on boats and caravans to protect against accidental gas leaks etc.

My old gran used to warn me not to go near hippies because they smoked cannibals

.

hora - Member

He must have been known to the family otherwise he wouldn't have shot the sister/violence of the head injury to fracture her skull as they all could have I.D him if left alive

I'm no expert, but I [i]think[/i] children can ID people that aren't known to their family?

Really - seems more like an internet rumour to me, don't let them gas you - seal yourself in a box and suffocate instead. Presumably if they are 'gassing' people it is either with some anaesthetic like ether, or chloroform or going for a kill with CO. Either approach could easily be detected with an alarm of the type commonly found on boats and caravans to protect against accidental gas leaks etc.

This is (according to friend in the Gendarmes) what they've started using in the Basque Region[url=

Scoplamine[/url].

Seriously scary stuff.

When a wet professionally-offended type like me thinks you're being a bit sensitive...

Knickers in a twist? Then don't read it.

It's all very sad and I'm sure there is more to this than we're hearing at present.

Bit of a shit that cyclist getting caught up in whatever this shooting is..

To think, he just went out for a ride n all..

A mountaineering mate was out in that area for a month recently. He sealed up the vents on his van before he left, since apparently it's not uncommon for robbers to gas the vans through the vents while people are in bed and then rob them.

Really - seems more like an internet rumour to me

It is a urban myth, it got so bad that the Royal College of Anaesthetists sent a letter to the Caravan Club to dismiss it as rubbish.

Can't remember the full details but it went along the lines of.

1. You would need a lot of gas to fill a Caravan / Motorhome / Van (massive sized cylinder)
2. It's very expensive and not available to public
3. Anaesthetising somebody is very skilled and dangerous, pumping a load of gas into a Caravan would more than likely either have no effect or kill.
4. Nobody has ever been tested to prove it was gas and not Red Wine induced deep sleeps

I believe it comes up on Camping / Motorhome / Caravan forums as regular as "CRC are not delivering next day" does for us...

Anyway....

back to interwebs crowd sourced crime solving

Tasteless speculation is tasteless speculation, no matter who it's between.

🙂

Speculating whether this was a professional hit, a robbery gone wrong, or whatever, is hardly "tasteless".

Who do you think might be offended ?

But then I see this kind of thing on the Beeb news site, and it really ****s me off

Ah, the inevitable and obligatory dig at the BBC.

Of course ITN, Sky News, and all other news providers, haven't speculated the possible cause of this horrendous incident, it's just the BBC is it ?

TopTip : Don't watch the news on the BBC, watch it on other channels.