Tallpaul
Indeed, this is a question I’d like a considered answer to.
On a slight tangent:
When a person, infectious with the virus coughs and sneezes, I can imagine the issues caused by the large particles emitted (and there is little chance of getting all the staff successfully coughing into their elbow, never mind pupils, in my experience). It’s the smaller particles emitted during breathing that I struggle with. Do these behave much like being able to smell vape from a vaper, or being able to smell perfume and deodorant the other side of a room. Because, if breath alone can spread the virus around a room in a similar way and remain viable on hard surfaces for days...
They’re not going in though, their parents can’t be arsed taking them. Hence why a return for all would mean they can’t fall under the radar.
That’s just bollox.
What about those children who can’t get to schools because buses are not running and parents don’t have cars or have to go to work. Many at risk children will have parents working in the actually very essential sector which has only just reached the public’s consciousness. There are a range of issues in play.
To the poster who thinks time tabling will be easy, go for it you can earn good money doing it as many schools outsource.
A neighbour is the school timetable monkey and he says that the IT programmes just support the process/make it a quicker process but relying on them entirely is still not possible.
Thank you @convert for a more detailed explanation, and you're right, my apologies for being flippant in suggesting an Excel would be up to the job. Nonetheless it doesn't seem particularly intractible, most of what you have commented apart from personal preferences doesn't seem that hard to model. I still think the main problem boils down to a lack of funding - no one's willing to pay for the software to do this, and as long as schools can get away with "the member of staff given the role of sorting it will be doing so on top of a full timetable minus a couple of periods a week and an extra couple of £K" that's unlikely to change.
Convert wrote:
For example – a tiny example from a myriad of simultaneous similar senarios…..
I am in a weekly meeting with 10 other pastoral staff. It happens once a week in a timetabled lesson slot. Of the 11 staff involved 10 are teachers, teaching in 8 different depts. We all need to be free at the same time. If you attend that meeting you are clearly unable to teach a lesson happening at that time.
The first question I'd be asking my staff would be what's the purpose of that meeting, why does it need to happen during teaching hours, and can it be done any other way?
Find a way to change that, and then all the other issues vanish.
For example, we used to have a meeting every Friday. Turned out it was mostly just used for comms and it got replaced by an email. This saved 135 customer billable hours worth around £200k to my organisation.
The first question I’d be asking my staff would be what’s the purpose of that meeting, why does it need to happen during teaching hours, and can it be done any other way?
Find a way to change that, and then all the other issues vanish.
They would not be 'your staff' as they are the most senior folk in the place - you would be their staff! And your role would be to 'make it so'! The other issues are only an issue if you are not prepared to put the graft in to find a solution. Been here 14 years (though only had to be in that meeting for the last 4). It has always been possible to timetable the meeting. So it is not an issue just an example of the complexity that you might not be aware of if your expertise in all matters school is that you once went to one. And yes, it does need to happen and yes it does need to happen during the timetabled day because of the roles of the staff involved.
So, it's the head's responsibly to ask the question then. Seniority doesn't mean you can't have difficult questions asked of you.
Ultimately, it's just a scheduling problem and it's not unsurmountable. Being a school doesn't make it special and just requires a willingness to work the problem through and entertain different solutions, rather than saying 'this is what we do, and if we can't carry on doing it, we're not going to bother'.
Sarky comments about my expertise in schooling are unnecessary.
Why does the meeting need to be in teaching hours due to the roles involved? What's special about the roles? What are they discussing? Can't they schedule it over lunch time? Or during morning break? Or god forbid, after 3:30pm?
My wife is a teacher. Can't say i'm looking forward to the teachers going back to school - i'd rather they all stay off than potentially expose my wife to a life threatening illness.
The above not withstanding, the latest study (a big one with 17k participants) shows that the highest co-morbidities are age and weight. The implications seems to be that when lockdown is eased, the old will be told to continue to isolate, along with those with the worse co-morbidities (e.g. BMI of more than 30). I'm assuming the prevalence of obese teachers is similar to the population as a whole (which is 31% with 63% being overweight) + lots of them are old. As far as I can see, losing more than a third of the workforce is going to be a non-starter in terms of going back - unless the government decides to chuck teachers on the same bonfire they're currently chucking NHS staff.
So, it’s the head’s responsibly to ask the question then. Seniority doesn’t mean you can’t have difficult questions asked of you.
He is the one of the 11 in my scenario. And yes he, like me believes it is vital.
Ultimately, it’s just a scheduling problem and it’s not unsurmountable.
As I keep saying - it is not insurmountable. It is solved every year with minimal fuss. It just requires a bit of head scratching and more than a few minutes with a spreadsheet.
Why does the meeting need to be in teaching hours due to the roles involved? What’s special about the roles? What are they discussing? Can’t they schedule it over lunch time? Or during morning break? Or god forbid, after 3:30pm?
It really is none of your concern beyond me saying this is the case. This is a boarding school running 7 days a week. Staff in this group have working hours from 0700-0000 7 days a week (and overnight cover too). Outside of the teaching day too many would have other roles in which they are irreplaceable. They simply could not all be free at the same time beyond the teaching day (which is for us 0825-1730)
These kids are already going in.
This is not really an argument to re-open schools to the others.
As said above, they’re not and they won’t be until it’s compulsory to send them.
As I said, whenever they reopen it will feel too soon for some and not soon enough for others.
And when they do open they will need to be hard on parents who choose not to send their kids.
I’m confused. Is the answer to timetabling issues, to not teach during the school day and have meetings then? ‘Cause really, none of the pupils pay any attention anyway 😭
Why does the meeting need to be in teaching hours due to the roles involved? What’s special about the roles? What are they discussing? Can’t they schedule it over lunch time? Or during morning break? Or god forbid, after 3:30pm?
Considering this is an SLT meeting, in my school it may be for example about child protection. Now it cant be done at break or lunch as SLT are on duty supervising kids as well as the other staff supervising kids. After school teaching hours SLT will be most likely busy meeting parents, most parent meetings have to be outside of the parents working hours, as they are SLT they will also have lighter teaching loads so during timetabled hours is precisely the best time to get vital meetings done by these people.
Bensales, your lack of understanding of how schools actually work is to be expected, you clearly havent worked in one but your dismissive attitude is typical of many people I meet. Is it just possible you dont know everything?
The implications seems to be that when lockdown is eased, the old will be told to continue to isolate, along with those with the worse co-morbidities (e.g. BMI of more than 30). I’m assuming the prevalence of obese teachers is similar to the population as a whole (which is 31% with 63% being overweight) + lots of them are old. As far as I can see, losing more than a third of the workforce is going to be a non-starter in terms of going back – unless the government decides to chuck teachers on the same bonfire they’re currently chucking NHS staff.
Yeah, and I bet Bensales wont clap for us! 😀😀😀😀😀
I would also add that given at any point in time about 30% of teachers have caught a cough its going to be tough on staffing and coronavirus testing to keep schools open.
I will add this to what AA said. Asuming the staff are not SLT, there will be faculty/ department meetings and training timetabled in at 3.30 on different days, on the other days teachers will be marking/ preparing resources/ making calls to parents/ running detentions etc... When do you think this is done? Let me guess during lesson time.
Yeah, and I bet Bensales wont clap for us! 😀😀😀😀😀
There won't be any PPE either. Not that it's particularly practical with children anyway - just to put it in perspective.... my wife teaches reception, they have a specific little shower room for removing shit from children - normally several as they tend to spread it around.
About a third of our students are bussed in to College on coaches, operated by several different private companies, across a 'catchment area' the size of Northern Ireland. Before we can reopen, we need to ascertain which companies are still trading...
Our catering is done by an outside company. They will have furloughed their staff, and may also have gone bust.
Our building is a hodgepodge of parts ranging in age from Victorian to modern, and it's been sealed shut and empty for 6 weeks now. At a minimum, the water system will need flushing through.
We're a 2000 student sixth form College - even if we only have Y12 in the building we're still at more than half our normal capacity as we'd have around 1100 students in (and that's 50% more students than we'd have had in the same building in the 90s). They're definitely old enough to catch and spread the disease - if workplaces are required to have people spaced out, we will be too.
Hilariously we're meant to be increasing our yr7 intake by 2 classes in September.
Unfortunately the building work has pretty much stopped on the 2 new blocks, so **** knows where they'll all go.
Sod social distancing, it's going to be more like the black hole of Calcutta - we were already about +10/15 over in each year group this year.
And the interviews for new/replacement staff that are to take place this term haven't happened (obviously!) so we'll be at least 4 teaching staff down.
I am doing the odd day at the hub in the town where I teach, we could have anything up to 300 kids with all the primary and secondary key workers/vulnerable children. Highest is 40, lowest 2: that suggests to me that parents will make the decision when the school's go back.
That’s just bollox.
You can see from the thread that those who can’t be arsed with lockdown any more are crying out for a return to free childcare. The best thing that can happen before getting that first can of Stella cracked is getting the kids out the way.
Sorry, no, it's you that's talking bollocks. One of our friends is a social worker, she wouldn't be visiting judges at 10 o'clock at night for warrants if these people weren't hiding their abuse behind closed doors under the pretence of social distancing. These people are far beyond the quiet can of Stella gang (who don't include anyone on here from what I've read).
that suggests to me that parents will make the decision when the school’s go back.
To a degree, which is why when the scoop reopen the government/LEA will have to be very strong in dealing with non-attendance.
My wife is a SENCo in a large secondary school.
They are working on the assumption that there will be a phased return after half-term with Yrs 6, 10 and 12 back in initially.
Other years who are not either exam groups or transitioning to secondary are unlikely to go back until September.
Her team have been in regular contact with the 200+ kids on the SEN/at-risk register - some horror stories coming out of this - anxiety through the roof, kids having a nightmare with abusive parents, etc.
You need to remember that for some kids - school is the only safe/sensible place in their lives, it is the only place where people care, and sometimes the only place where they get proper food.. and this was very suddenly taken away 6 weeks ago.
There will be a mental health crisis in teenage kids at the end of lock-down.
My kids are 9+12, they have both been doing some work - probably not as much as they should but with both parents working full time it is not a priority.
So many issue to consider regarding re-opening schools - social distancing at drop-off/pick-up, getting the supply chain that supports schools back up and running, etc.
I would suggest they need 2-3 weeks notice minimum and a clear strategy to stand any chance of it not being a disaster.
My wife is a SENCo in a large secondary school.
Good luck to her, as a lowly classroom teacher I am somewhat insulated to the horrors of kids home lives. Her job must be hell right now.
Why does the meeting need to be in teaching hours due to the roles involved? What’s special about the roles? What are they discussing? Can’t they schedule it over lunch time? Or during morning break? Or god forbid, after 3:30pm?
Again, echoing comments above, this understandably reflects a lack of understanding.
Staff are on duty, some before school (from 0750), and at break and lunch. Particularly in small secondary schools where the same number of duties need to be covered with fewer staff.
After school all staff (in our school) are in meetings on Mondays, always until 1600, but sometimes until 1700. As mentioned above a lot of pastoral staff and SLT are in meetings with parents after school or in department meetings etc. on at least 2 or 3 more days a week. Most teaching staff also run 1 or 2 sessions per week 'after school' for students.
Scheduling meetings, never mind a full timetable, in itself can therefore be problematic. Despite what some people think most school staff work bloody hard to provide the best they can for the young people in our care.
It is very early days but my Danish colleagues tell me that the return to school for the primary kids is going as well as they hoped. They just seem a bit complacent now but they have handled this so much better than us so far.
So today my other half social worker has taken a 17 year old to supported living accommodation to get her away from parents with addiction/violence issues, and moved a mum and 3 kids to a domestic violence refuge.
That's 4 people and most of their belongings in our car today, with no PPE beyond sanitiser.
FM(her)L
My wife is a SENCo in a large secondary school.
Good luck to her, as a lowly classroom teacher I am somewhat insulated to the horrors of kids home lives. Her job must be hell right now.
Thanks - she is finding it pretty draining at the moment, especially with those who shes spent a lot of time working through issues to get them into school regularly and engaging with it once they're through the door.
She reckons some of them might never come back.
It is very early days but my Danish colleagues tell me that the return to school for the primary kids is going as well as they hoped
Tell me, how many cases and deaths have Denmark had? After you have done that, explain to me what relevance those schools re opening has for the UK situation.
the latest study (a big one with 17k participants) shows that the highest co-morbidities are age and weight.
...plus smoking and gender. 70pc are male, and of those 70pc males 60pc are smokers:
It is very early days but my Danish colleagues tell me that the return to school for the primary kids is going as well as they hoped. They just seem a bit complacent now but they have handled this so much better than us so far.
R number rose from 0.6 to 0.9 in a week after Denmark reopened primary schools
https://www.ft.com/content/fdf893d5-40a0-4645-87fb-471b0f5e7ad0
anagallis_arvensis
MemberTell me, how many cases and deaths have Denmark had? After you have done that, explain to me what relevance those schools re opening has for the UK situation
I wasn't drawing relevance to the UK. I was updating a previous post I made where I stated how few deaths Denmark had had and how that was due to locking down much earlier on the curve than our political muppets. They have as a consequence had a much shorter lockdown.
The relevance to the UK is when we can get down to similar infection levels pro rata then we can look to bring schools back. However even when we are at those enviable levels we will clearly need to provide education in a vastly different way to how we did it six weeks ago.
From the Guardian
Denmark says partial reopening has not accelerated virus spread
More news from Denmark, where authorities say the spread of Covid-19 has not accelerated since it became the first country outside of Asia to ease lockdown measures a fortnight ago.
Day care centres and schools began reopening in the Nordic country two weeks ago, followed by hairdressers and other small businesses on 20 April. The move came after the number of infections and deaths slowed. “There are no signs that the Covid-19 epidemic is accelerating,” the State Serum Institute, which is responsible for preparedness against infectious diseases, said.
The relevance to the UK is when we can get down to similar infection levels pro rata then we can look to bring schools back
So when we get to about 300 deaths a month? **** me even I'll be bored at home by then!!
I cannot work out what outcome and solution you are wanting or expecting
Denmark says partial reopening has not accelerated virus spread
More news from Denmark, where authorities say the spread of Covid-19 has not accelerated since it became the first country outside of Asia to ease lockdown measures a fortnight ago.
Day care centres and schools began reopening in the Nordic country two weeks ago, followed by hairdressers and other small businesses on 20 April. The move came after the number of infections and deaths slowed. “There are no signs that the Covid-19 epidemic is accelerating,” the State Serum Institute, which is responsible for preparedness against infectious diseases, said.
...and in Germany, in spite of one shakey day, the R number has actually dropped since lockdown was relaxed.
I cannot work out what outcome and solution you are wanting or expecting
I'd like us to be like Denmark or Germany with a government that seems to have a clue but that is clearly too late, I'm not sure what we can learn about relaxing lock down from countries that have been on a vastly different path than us.
We'll just have to roll on lockdown indefinitely till we get a vaccine. Two, three, ten years of it.
Irish schools not reopening until September. In a country with a relatively low population density that's run by a doctor...
September just seems to be the sensible option really. Anything before that is just going to be organised structured childcare.
I have to admit that we (my family)are in a very privileged position where we can work from home and have the flexibility to look after the boy as well, which a lot of people cannot do I think some return would be worth it for those who actually need the assistance. I do think that it should be optional but I fear it will increase infections unless we wait until the infection rate is very low
Agreed, but within education (I'm a teacher and Head of Year) all the chatter is about being ready for after half term in England. Personally I think its too soon and the logistics of even half making it work safely are a headache inducing nightmare.
Think many schools struggle even with good intentions. Eldest goes to a newly built school. It’s a struggle to access hand washing facilities more than a few times a day. Let alone between every class. Let alone keep a distance from others. Not sure what the answer is but given what myself and my partner do I’ll be pretty reluctant to see my kids go back to school until there’s a proper grip on the whole situation.
Scottish schools have 7or so weeks until summer. Everyone in my dept has done a stint at the hub and will continue to until the Hubs close.
We were due to change timetable end of may.
If we are to stand any chance of a sensible worthwhile return before summer we'd need to know now dates timings structure etc. To be honest I'm not sure that's high on the priority list of central government.
I dont think Scotland will go back. English schools might after next half term. I would like to get back before to look after the lids that need it but I'd be stressed to **** about my son going back and any of us getting ill. Not sure what I'd do if a staged return meant me and mrs working are working but my son isnt back in, also not sure how we could do it at all if after school club isnt on.
So it seems like 1st Jun is set to be announced as the return date.
Not sure I want monkey jnr returning until we have proper measures in place, even though I'm not entirely sure what those need to be. Hoping it's not an enforced return.
Eldest is Year 12 - they've been told that whenever/however they go back there will be a load of assessments and testing that they have missed so far.
He cynically thinks this is in case there are still no exams in summer 2021
Not sure I want monkey jnr returning until we have proper measures in place, even though I’m not entirely sure what those need to be
No measure can be in place that will work, the only way kids can go back and keep the country safe is when infection rates drop drastically imo.
I'm hoping it isn't mandatory too, the boy is in reception and the potential risk from him going is way bigger than the benefits in my mind.
If he were older and actually learning based on more formal lessons I would probably be thinking a little differently though
