[Closed] Sending kids back to school

Kids shouldn't be allowed to lease Audis.

That's irresponsible parenting right there.

LOL... I thought Audi's WERE cars for kids. (Well, the ones who throw a strop when they dont get what they want, anyway!)

It's an example of the country really not being in this together though.

Sure there are middle class parents homeschooling their kids and posting meme's with bottles of prosecco and gin on Facebook about how the world is doomed because the next generation is being schooled by alcoholics.

Meanwhile the other half are probably fending for themselves, getting zero schooling and by September will probably have actually gone backwards having forgotten anything they learnt last year and be feral.

Anyone willing to chance sending their kids to school just so they can keep up the repayments on the Audi?

Or put another way, if you watch newsnight, have a credit rating and drive an Audi it's probably not your kids life chances taking a beating as a result of this.

That doesn't mean they should open schools, but it does mean it's a lot more complicated, and gets more complicated the longer it goes on.

There's a good chance the unions would have something to say about it if the Cons decide to just blanket reopen schools. Kids may not get ill and transmit the virus much, but what about all the adults?

Having been in school on and off for the last 4 weeks social distancing is impossible, even with only 12ish kids (out of the whole school!) they don't care/listen, so why would it work if you suddenly had 80/90% of them back in?!

I can see them partially reopening schools for transition years and exam classes, i.e. Yr6, Yr10 and Yr12, but any more at the moment would be madness.
With smaller numbers in we could split classes in 2 or 3 and minimise contact to a certain extent - designated places they can and can't go in school, designated computers to work on, zero contact in practical lessons (difficult this one!), etc.
I can see some staff refusing to come in though - we don't have any PPE to speak of, and as I said the kids don't really understand or care about the practicalities of social distancing.

My daughter is a teacher in London and the difference in requirements for teaching remotely across different schools her friends work in is vast. Some kids are getting a full timetable of 5 lessons a day and others are doing 2 lessons a day, the feedback from some of her pupils using the online teaching has been patchy to say the least.

She believes that if there is any focus on kids going back it should be for those in year 10 doing GCSE's.

The worry for most teachers of course is what precautions are in place for teaching staff.

Would agree with OP a lot of the talk about sending them back to school comes from the same places screaming reopen the workplaces EDIT meant workhouses.

What TINAS said. The vulnerable kids getting abused or simply those not getting their free school meal. Social distancing can be done. It wont be easy and may include attending in shifts, but some proper sensible problem solving needs to be done to get kids back into school. Personal experience of online learning provision for my 2 has been generally poor. Teachers struggling with the tech and then copy and pasting materials rather than spending 10 mins more to but a bit of thought into the work being set. Teachers are an easy target of course, but many just can't seem to help themselves.

The kids don’t really understand or care about the practicalities of social distancing.
Wow - maybe not all kids think the same?

You'd need about ten times the number of school buses (and a lot of gaffer tape) to maintain social distancing getting to and from schools too.

How about using local buildings that are not currently being occupied? Closed offices, church halls, council sports facilities etc.
Teachers could be dispersed to these lower density facilties? Obvs harder for practical classes, but priorities and all that.

How about using local buildings that are not currently being occupied? Closed offices, church halls, council sports facilities, church halls etc.
Teachers could be dispersed to these lower density facilties? Obvs harder for practical classes, but priorities and all that.

Assuming an average high school has ~100 classrooms and teachers. You either need to find thousands of large empty rooms in even a small city with ~10 schools? Or multiple more thousands of extra teachers and multiple more thousands of classroom sized rooms.

I can see a point coming (very soon) where Gove says “schools are fine, get them all back.”

Its quite clear from all the murmuring that schools won't ALL be going back overnight. Social distancing will be required and most schools do not have the physical space to do that with all pupils at the same time. Some year groups may go back before others. Some may split AM and PM. In some rural areas where kids are bussed in there may be other problems.

The earliest date being touted is 1st June for a PHASED return. If you are in Scotland (which finish at end of June) there's probably not too much point on some degree of increased risk for what is traditionally the least productive month of the year. I suspect scotland will return in August, with some sort of social distancing still required there. That will likely create some pressure on England to show similar caution - there could however be an argument for opening up some schools in some parts to test the impact - its always been the case that lockdown could come and go.

Interestingly Switzerland have said today children <10 don't seem to spread it (I've not had a chance to read more about it). But again that could fit with a phased return, for those who are most demanding on home learning.

I wonder how many parents would choose to send their kids to school without a cast-iron guarantee that the science said it was safe to go back.

There will never be (and indeed never was) a cast iron guarantee that going to school would not result in an infection which might be life threatening. Meningitis, measles, flu, and novel-viruses all have the potential to kill and even with vaccination are not 100% certain to avoid them. IF the new infection rates are in the double digits across the UK, if the deaths are in single digits, and if your child has no underlying health condition I'm not sure why they would be automatically safer at home (someone is still going shopping, exercising, etc). You also need to think about the entire life of your child - its no use protecting them from a 1:1,000,000 risk today if it means they are certainly going to be disadvantaged for the rest of their life - we know that the least fortunate can have life long impact on health. And I don't think its just exam results that are impacted by children not being able to socially interact face to face.

We could just ship the kids back to school and the teachers can stay at home and broadcast their lessons remotely to the classroom. What could possible go wrong! 🙂

Assuming an average high school has ~100 classrooms and teachers. You either need to find thousands of large empty rooms in even a small city with ~10 schools? Or multiple more thousands of extra teachers and multiple more thousands of classroom sized rooms.

Come on TINAS you are more creative than that. A combination of extra spaces, not necessarily standard classroom sized and some sort of shift patterns plus priority for some classes / groups would go a significant way.

Edit - add in concert halls, football stadiums, theatres, cinemas..... plenty of spaces available if we can use a bit of imagination.

Getting the economy going is in everyone’s interest, not just the Government. Getting the schools going is key if everyone is going to get back to work. Sure we need to be safe a second peak of infection will also be bad for the economy. We have to start somewhere at some point. It’s unlikely that everyone will be at the same stage in their mindset/timeline/risk assessment at the same time. In our area area the risk seems much lower than other areas for instance. My view, get back to school.

I have been speaking to some Danish people this week and primary kids have gone back to school there. It is the primary kids who need looking after so it frees people up to work i guess. The classes are generally split in to three to help with social distancing, many Copenhagen schools are not big enough to do this so places like Tivoli Gardens have opened the conference centres to operate as classrooms.

The Danes however locked down much earlier on the curve than us so they have only had 300 odd deaths so there may be less risk. As a consequence many think it was a waste of money to shut down because they see normal flu as a much bigger issue although the reality is their government saved thousands of lives compared to the UK shambles and also had a shorter lock down.

I would not be happy sending my 13 year old back to normal school any time soon.

All these years… claiming teachers aren’t part of the productive economy… and paying them according… but then… schools must go back to save the economy!

The modelling suggests that keeping them off school has very little influence on the spread and deaths for covid19, yet causes plenty of other problems.

It's just a few weeks off, IMO.

There are all sorts of complicated issues to work through, but the experts involved need to start planning how it might happen. Not doing so would be crazy. As other countries come out of lockdown ahead of us, we'll have to learn from their experience thus time.

Excellent point made about how an ongoing lockdown will widen divides - too many of the kids who should be in school now getting time, attention and meals are just not doing it.

I can see Yrs 6, 10 and 12 being the initial guinea pigs, they would be the priority. Ideally with some element of testing and social distancing in place.

But we are all going to have to make hard choices in all walks of life. There might never be a vaccine for this bastard virus. We are going to have to find a new way of working, educating and interacting, or we will end up in some dystopian agrarian dark age.

People are going to have to make a hard educated guess as to their safety in getting back to a more normal world. And I'm saying that as the husband of a front line child protection social worker who is having to go into people's houses every day, and transport kids to places of safety every day. With no PPE whatsoever apart from our own stock of hand sanitiser.

So while I get the whole "this is a terrible choice and risk" worry, some people are already cracking on and having to live with it. And so are their partners and their kids.

The Danes however locked down much earlier on the curve than us so they have only had 300 odd deaths so there may be less risk

Funniest post in ages, genuinely just spat my tea out! Well done.

Schools will have to go back at some point but to be clear even if my school only had 1/5 of the kids in each day social distancing will not happen and it would be even worse with primary kids. If I had just say 10 kids in my classroom I still cannot see how we could stay 2m apart.

As a more minor point I wonder how many schools are regretting those finger print whatsits to pay for food!!!

I think realistically with parents’ movements still restricted, no contact outside the family etc it’s a fairly small pool if kids are back.

The Danish return with social distancing is only possible at all with lots of teaching outside - fine in good weather and in schools with lots of outdoor space. Some may struggle and have to prioritise or split time.

My eldest is in reception and I can’t see a return before September being likely.

The modelling suggests that keeping them off school has very little influence on the spread and deaths for covid19

Could you show your working out on that?

I’ll probably listen to the science rather than gut-feel.

Teachers and unions are really anti-reopening at the moment, one of the Education authorities (Ofsted perhaps?) are rather pro.

Schools are suggesting getting kids due to take exams next year in. I imagine The Gov will want junior school kids as brining them back will will have a far greater effect on the economy.

Teachers are using simple maths to justify their position (30 kids in a class, 4 people per family etc) but Scientists are claiming that despite largely spending all day climbing on each other and licking things having smaller kids back in school will only result in a small increase in cases and is a get a bit of normality back.

I think some people want to stay in lock down until the virus is eradicated, or a vaccine is found, but I don’t think it’s possible. SARS still doesn’t have a vaccine after 10 years and were too late for eradication.

Anyway, in short if the schools open I’ll send them. I don’t think it’s time for everyone to start making up their own rules. People who are ignoring the rules now could end up causing more deaths, equally I don’t want to see 30% unemployment or another decade or more of austerity because we let the media scare us into tanking the economy. Poverty kills.

@oldtennisshoes

The kids don’t really understand or care about the practicalities of social distancing.
Wow – maybe not all kids think the same?

Ok, from my relatively long experience as a teacher, kids tend not to think through consequences very well (all to do with how juvenile brains develop, plenty of research on it, look it up).
So whilst they may not do it on purpose, social distancing will not be forefront in their minds, especially when seeing friends they haven't seen in person for weeks if not months.

I'm not calling them 'bad' children for doing it, but most, if not all will find it difficult to accept the rules around social distancing when they are thrown back in with their peers.
Children at home with parents are very different beasts (and generally much more biddable) to when they are in large groups.

Some of the newly re-opened German schools have had to close already as there was a spike in cases.

Only with decent antibody testing and active testing could schools possibly go back.

I have 2 kids at home, one 3 and one 8. My wife and I have VERY busy research jobs which have not abated in the slightest (mine has actually gotten worse since the crisis as it's aviation) and we're now home schooling 2 kids of very different ages. We manage this by me getting up at 5 and working to 12:30 and then clocking off my Job to do teaching, cooking and cleaning from 12:30-19:30 while my wife works. I then do a little more work between 19:30 and 21:00 when required and my wife works until 22:00. We've been doing this since March 11th and I'm most definitely NOT keeping up with my job requirements.

How sustainable is this???

Scientists are claiming that despite largely spending all day climbing on each other and licking things having smaller kids back in school will only result in a small increase in cases

Teachers and unions are really anti-reopening at the moment

Care to join the dots?

one of the Education authorities (Ofsted perhaps?) are rather pro.

What the offsted lady said at the committee the other day was that schools should open as soon as possible, which is true, be not that now was the time, she gave no opinion on that, as usual the reporting has removed all context or nuance.

The 1st June as the earliest date was from the head teachers union I think and this was said to emphasize how long schools will need to plan how to reopen, again it was not about it being safe now it was about the gov not giving schools any idea of what they need to do planning wise as the gov does not seem to have a plan.

Some really interesting comments!

My concern is that somewhere a "cost benefit analysis" is being conducted and in a few days we will all be expected to "follow the rules" and send our kids back to school.

Somewhere in Whitehall, someone is determining how many increased deaths there will be and whether the British public have the stomach for it. I find that a bit worrying.

Also, if social distancing is the "new normal" and the price we pay for staying safe, then how on earth is that meant to work in schools?

How sustainable is this???

Not very, and your situation shows why some teachers are doing better at setting work than others which a poster above was moaning about. Some teachers are parents to, strange as may seem teaches have lives and are juggling other things like childcare too. My colleges without kids seem mostly bored and are filling time, those with kids are doing as you do. I'm up at 5.30 most days to get my work done, then swapping with my other half who does her work in the afternoon. Its tuff, sooner schools go back the better but it has to be thought through and this gov does not inspire confidence.

Somewhere in Whitehall, someone is determining how many increased deaths there will be and whether the British public have the stomach for it. I find that a bit worrying.

It'd be worrying if they weren't doing that.
There was a headline figure of 18,000 additional cancer deaths this year due to suspension of many cancer services.
Recession will result in many thousands of deaths.
Like it or not, someone needs to be doing the cost benefit analysis on this.

Genuine question, does anyone known why it would take a month or more to plan to reopen a school. I assume the buildings will be maintained in the interim?

Genuine question, does anyone known why it would take a month or more to plan to reopen a school. I assume the buildings will be maintained in the interim?

Assuming changes to maintain social distancing, etc...
Timetabling, rooming, staffing, resources, changes to lesson plans and schemes of work, budgeting for all the above changes.

Thanks guys. Thanks for all your comments. I'm gonna step away now. Apologies if I have just lit the blue touch-paper but I really got to step away.

Its all a bit too real when you are trying to keep your own family safe, home school your own child and look after the families of vulnerable students AND trying to teach online at the same time.

For what is worth....I think we are going back to school VERY soon and I don't think any of us are prepared for what could happen next.

A friend recently reminded me that the kids are "not stuck at home.... they are SAFE at home."
I just wish that could be true for everyone and that the "cost benefit" decisions weren't being made by people like Cummings and Gove.

A friend recently reminded me that the kids are “not stuck at home…. they are SAFE at home.”
I just wish that could be true for everyone and that the “cost benefit” decisions weren’t being made by people like Cummings and Gove.

+1

Of course, it could also be the case that Herd Immunity is the plan. Putting kids back into school for 6 weeks or so could increase the infection rate enough to get the numbers up without overwhelming the NHS and then we have a 6 week school holiday, when can lockdown again to recover for a bit.

Somewhere in Whitehall, someone is determining how many increased deaths there will be and whether the British public have the stomach for it. I find that a bit worrying.

That is the realities of dealing with a pandemic in a consumer lead capitalist economy.

I know people have mentioned the dog whistle PCP Audi’s and all that, but the truth is the Middle Classes and above will be just fine, sure they’ll be worried like everyone else but generally their lifestyle will take a dip, they’ll miss a holiday, lose a couple of grand in property value they didn’t earn in the first place and yes maybe the PCP bubble will burst and the roads won’t be a sea of people with £30k salaries driving £40k cars anymore.

It’s the poor, the old, the sick and the disabled who’ll really suffer. The people barely making ends meet before Covid are the ones who’ll suffer most post Covid the longer it goes on. Furlough has done a great job of protecting jobs, but for others it’s keeping jobs going that are less and less likely to be there post Covid.

If by some miracle we had a vaccine ready in a weeks time and lock-down just ended and we all went back to work we might be in recession until Q4, there would be a chaotic, but quick recovery and the huge costs of stimulus might be limited not getting next years Tory tax cut, if we stay as we are now until the end of the year we’re looking at another 10 year Great Recession and all the painful austerity that goes with it.

Because infrastructure is there to support 30 kids per room and no social distancing? Plenty of workplaces, mine included, shut for a similar amount of time to work through how to run things in the new normal world.

I think some people want to stay in lock down until the virus is eradicated, or a vaccine is found, but I don’t think it’s possible. SARS still doesn’t have a vaccine after 10 years and were too late for eradication

Got to agree with this. The lockdown should be used to come up with new ways to live / conduct business / education / society, not just sit it out. We can't assume we can go back to "normal" for sometime but we can't keep on as we are. If the science says we can get some kids back to school in some way we should do it. Itt all about how.

Timetabling, rooming, staffing

This is a massive job, if kids return say year 10 and 12. The entire timetable will need to be re written otherwise all 250 kids in year 10 will be doing science on p1 monday, but we only have 9 science teachers and we dont want 30 per class and all 250 heading along the science corridor at 9am, so who does science then and what do the others do? When you've worked all that out in year 12 are in they should be doing A level bio p1, but the bio teachers are all teaching sci to year 10 but there other option is french and the french teacher is down to do french with some year 10 not doing sci.... it will need a totally new timetable which always takes weeks of work by a few people and is then handed out to teachers to look for errors and then redone over and over. Add to this we want to physically spread the classes out around the school and it gets even harder.

Of course, it could also be the case that Herd Immunity is the plan.

I personally don’t think it was ever not the plan, as above SARS has been raging around Asia for nearly 20 years. It’s also a Coronavirus that originated in Bats and there’s still not vaccine. I don’t think the scale of the outbreak is going to make a vaccine any quicker for Covid-19.

Eradication was never promised. We were told to stay at home to flatten to curve so we the NHS could cope with the virus and as it’s already reached every corner of the U.K. (and world) I don’t think there’s any escaping it.

it gets even harder

Or to quote a deputy head friend of mine:

****ing impossible

Plenty of workplaces, mine included, shut for a similar amount of time to work through how to run things in the new normal world.

Schools shut with two days notice and had to plan how to find out who were key worker kids and how to supervise them by monday, schools were then open all easter looking after kids, all the while having to set work online...schools closed to the majority of kids, but were still open, checking on vulnerable kids, sorting free school meals, supervising key worker kids and setting work online. I've managed ok but only because I gave up years ago on being a leader within the school. I wouldnt want to be a member of SLT for all the PPE in China.

From my understanding of the modelling, opening schools only has a low impact if proper social distancing can take place in the schools. Does that sound about right to folk?

If so then I expect that educational considerations will be subordinate to economical ones, as an improving economy is likely to save more lives. In that case primary school children will likely return first, using secondary school infrastructure/staff where possible.

Whatever does happen it will be a huge task.

From my understanding of the modelling, opening schools only has a low impact if proper social distancing can take place in the schools. Does that sound about right to folk?

I seem to recall a model months back that showed schools not affecting spread but it assumed social distancing. Thing is models just show you whatever you want depending on what you put in.

Have any teachers worked out how many kids they can get in their class room and how timetables would work if groups have to be split up even with a smaller percentage of students in school?

Edit- also teachers with children will need to be rotated so they are not in on days when their own children are not.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52470838

Dr Koch told a news conference this week that the original advice to keep distance between children and their grandparents was made when less was known about how the coronavirus was transmitted.

"Young children are not infected and do not transmit the virus," he said. "They just don't have the receptors to catch the disease."

Five-year-old child among latest UK coronavirus deaths

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/04/five-year-old-child-among-latest-uk-coronavirus-deaths

I wouldn’t be sending reception and year one kids back any time soon. I own one that is in year one and he and his friends are basically biological weapons. Brought home more bugs on a weekly basis over the last two years than I can keep up with. Good luck getting them to understand social distancing when they’re all together too. Fine one on one, but I’d imagine that it goes to shit when there’s a few of them.

Have any teachers worked out how many kids they can get in their class room and how timetables would work if groups have to be split up even with a smaller percentage of students in school?

There has been talk of splitting classes in two, so 14-15 kids per class. Two teachers needed then to take each half of the class - or you have them one after another.
In my workshop, with 7 workbenches, I'd be able to fit 14 pupils with 2 on either side of each bench. Though getting them in and out of the room will take a bit of shuffling. Probably no practical work, as that would mean movement around the room.
Maybe computer based work, and if so each pupil is assigned a workstation and can't use others.

Problems arise when (as is the case in my school) more than one subject class is on at the same time. This would necessitate whole scale timetable changes, which then has knock-on effects elsewhere.