[Closed] Selling an old(ish) climbing rack

Hardware probably ok but tapes and slings should be suspect. I wouldn't sell but I keep mine in the hope that i'll use it again at some point.

Pretty sure ropes have a 10 year life

As above, metalwork probably OK so long as no corrosion visible but if it was me I would want to inspect in person. Fabric parts and rope definitely no.

Even if you put the rope up for sale I hope no one would buy it.

Any wired nuts should not have deteriorated (unless having taken a big fall). All roped/taped nuts can be sold without the tat anyway and the buyer can replace with new. I guess these days nuts come with sown-in dyneama tape so would have to be cut out. It wasn't always the case and using a length of knotted rope is all that was used for donkeys years. Just sell the metal bits. There are always arguments on FB when someone tries to sell SH climbing gear, but to be fair the risks are largely overblown (IMHO, I still use mine which have had the same tat for 30 years). I also have a 30 year old climbing rope I recently used to bump start a 3 tonne tractor.... uphill.

As above, metalwork probably OK so long as no corrosion visible but if it was me I would want to inspect in person. Fabric parts and rope definitely no.

Even if you put the rope up for sale I hope no one would buy it.

That's pretty much why I posted. Thank you. And thanks to those that also made this point. Any fabric is heading to the recycling bin. I'd already planned on only shifting to in person only assuming it doesn't all go into recycling.

I'm rather uncomfortable with the thought of selling something that's an unknown quantity to a buyer. Which might prove a deciding factor.

I wouldn't sell but I keep mine in the hope that i'll use it again at some point.

I've been telling myself this for years, and I've moved home 4 times since it was last used.

I'm actually quite partial to getting on rock, but only in a scrambling capacity and as part of a larger hill/mountain journey. When I stopped climbing was when I really got into Fell Running and realised that actually there's stuff out there I much prefer. I'd only get back into climbing if I couldn't pedal, run or paddle. And even then it seems unlikely.

As above, couldn't see me ever using it again so stuck the lot on eBay. I kept a wild country friend that I found wedged on Tryfan for old times sake but rack and ice screws all sold for reasonable money.

Hmm, I also have a sadly under-utilised rack at present... Not for 8 years though! I even have [b]three[/b] pairs of 'new' unused rock shoes... 😳

If you fancy doing some easy climbing let me know. A good excuse for you to load up the van and head out west for the weekend 😆

Piemonster I'd be interested, email in my profile.

Funny you should post as I've been having similar thoughts about my gear. I pretty much stopped for almost 10 years whilst my kids were young and have been dabbling again for a couple of years. Happy with my gear and harnesses, carried on using (not obviously worn out) 10mm rope until recently. It's always been a bit prone to kinking but I was lowering off at the wall and the there was an alarming creak. Back on the deck here was a stretch of the core showing through. That rope got retired sharpish. Just bought some new quick draws but that's mostly vanity - I'll still us the old ones.

I'd be retiring the harness too if it's that vintage. It can be significantly weakened without any obvious external signs of wear.

In agreement with most of the comments above. I've been using my 20 year old metal bits again recently, but anything non-metal such as quickdraw slings has been replaced. Also bought a new harness to replace one which was only about 10 years old (but showing signs of wear) and retired slings of a similar vintage.

[quote=mechanicaldope ]Pretty sure ropes have a 10 year life

I'm pretty sure they don't - I certainly wouldn't use one that old.

Pretty sure ropes have a 10 year life

I would slice and dice and bin some ropes in the outdoor centre every year, definitely every three years.
My personal soft gear (harness, slings, helmet etc), occasionally used at work, would get sliced, diced and smashed every three years.
Personal rack soft gear, not used for work, is my judgement on use (little), storage (dark, dry) and damage (no falls or visual damage), has been known to do 5-7 years.
It is reasonable that a rarely used, well stored rope or harness could do 10 years, but I would not rely on a blanket application.

Same here. Big blue barrel of the stuff including a brand new rope. That dates from 1993 and still in the bag 😥 Might chop it and use for a scrambling rope as its never seen daylight but doubtful. Piles or wires etc. They[i] may[/i] be useful one day.
My mid 70's Whillans should still be good though. :wink:After all, isn't Retro trendy?

There are very good reasons why there are definitive lifespans on textile products within the safety and climbing industry.
Textiles degrade even if stored in the absolute perfect environment - nothing you can do about it.
Add in usage, UV, dirt, water, etc and there is no real way to give an absolute to that.
Hence there being lifespans by the manufacturers.
By all means sell it on - I've got plenty of kit I've bought - some from members on here HOWEVER all the textile parts get replaced whether they need it or not - I have no idea of knowing what you have or haven't done with that kit. No way of knowing without testing it if its degraded.
Price it accordingly and it should sell but you need to allow for the fact that 99% will allow for that cost over and above the price.

FYI - as a "standard" 5yrs service life from date of first use and/or 10yrs storage life whichever is the sooner. on textiles.
Metal products are usually 10yrs from date of first use.

My rack must be over 20 years old now, all bought early 90s.

I have two huge crates of gear in the attic.

[quote=hammyuk ]Metal products are usually 10yrs from date of first use.

There's no particularly good reason for that though, as metal doesn't degrade in the same way textiles do. I suppose about the only argument for that is with gear where you don't know what use it's had as a basis for reasonable lifespan if well used, but it's not much better than a guess.

Responses appreciated and noted, anything not metal defo for the chop!

Generally as above.

How about making something from the rope? I've seen door mats made from them...

https://gearjunkie.com/climbing-rope-creations

Aracer- certain alloys are known to degrade over time losing their compressibility, torsional strength, etc. Trade off for lack of weight.
That's manufacturer lifespans. Petzl themselves quite that as do many others.
I've spent my entire working life with this and far more technical kit as a user, tester, instructor and designer.
Only passing on the info and experience.
Personally I would never sell on textile kit.
Period.
Other kit only if I knew exactly what its history was.
Seen far too many examples of failures over the years and recovered too many to have that on my conscience.

All you need to know about kit degradation from the BMC

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=77

How about making something from the rope? I've seen door mats made from them...

All my DIY gym kit has rope handles made from an old Edelweiss single rope....

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1517/24150799770_5454852b36.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1517/24150799770_5454852b36.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/CN8anu ]Jerk Blocks[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5780/23069046881_68816e35b6.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5780/23069046881_68816e35b6.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/B9wTVB ]Pulling blocks[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

[quote=hammyuk ]Aracer- certain alloys are known to degrade over time losing their compressibility, torsional strength, etc. Trade off for lack of weight.
That's manufacturer lifespans. Petzl themselves quite that as do many others.
I've spent my entire working life with this and far more technical kit as a user, tester, instructor and designer.

I'm an engineer (there, I've said it) and did modules on metallurgy - I still have some of the textbooks! Would you have details on these alloys which deteriorate over time? Because it's not something which happens to any engineering grade alloy I've ever come across when subjected to normal environments (they do degrade when heated sufficiently or subject to repeated loadings, but we're talking about being stored unused in a normal house here). Manufacturers of course have their own reasons for giving guidelines on lifespans - if I'm trying not to be cynical, then as I wrote above it's a very crude rule of thumb based upon wear due to regular use.

From the BMC link above:

[quote=BMC ]If properly looked after, there is no reason why a karabiner should not have a lifetime of at least 20 years.

(I've only skimmed the bit on krabs at the moment, will read in detail later, but what they're saying there in terms of wear and inspection makes a lot of sense).

As I've already written, I agree with you regarding textiles.

diver mate took my ropes off me, not sure what he used it for tho

Ignore the BMC - in the event of an "incident " the manufacturers guidelines become a legal document.
For useage, storage, lifespan, etc.
The likes of Petzl, Troll and others use 10yrs as the point at which there is "a measurable deterioration in material strength"
I've subjected kit to failure tests when working for them, they are measuring so many different factors beyond where my expertise ends.
As an instructor for them the reasons are those above given to students on inspection courses, etc.
With the likes of nuts, cams, etc it's not just the obvious - even designed to take falls, the pivots, forgings, cables, etc are subjected to torsional loads, camming loads and many others - repeatedly.
They design that into them by actually softening certain parts/alloys intentionally.
Hence them degrading.
Not my job - the people that actually design them write the rules and they say 10yrs.
A steel biner - 20yrs, maybe if barely used and well maintained.
Alloy?
Not a chance.

diver mate took my ropes off me, not sure what he used it for tho

Weighting down bodies in Lakes....

the manufacturers guidelines become a legal document.

You didn't read law did you.....

The manufacturers guidelines may be referred to in a court case, but it doesn't become a 'legal document', which is a loose phrase referring to standard types of legal documents such as wills, power of attorney, letting contracts etc.

It would also be quite hard to prove the age of a rope esp if the end tape had been worn off, as colours don't always change each year.

For the sake of a few quid I wouldn't want the potential of it being on my conscience that someone else had come a cropper due to my gear being dodgy. YMMV

Footflaps - I've stood in court as an expert witness on behalf of a manufacturer of equipment.
Their instructions of usage, storage and lifespan were taken as the legal basis and referred to as such. They became a legal document once presented as the definitive document with regards to that items specific use, life, do's, don'ts.
In that case they had stored it incorrectly and had also exceeded the lifespan set out in those instructions.
They were prosecuted on that basis.
As there are no specific and definitive rules as to exactly how certain items are used, cared for, etc (outside of an EN standard for minimum performance, the manufacturer and their instructions/guidelines are taken as the legal standard)

As for rope - you obviously haven't used them extensively have you.....
Every rope has a tell tale marker built into them identifying batch numbers, dates, machines used, etc.
There has to be complete traceability with regards to this type of equipment from raw material to finished product.
So while you might not be able to tell which rope you have as you've lost the end marker ( although if you can't then I'd suggest you shouldn't be left alone to use it in the first place) the manufacturer can very easily and many have done over the years in climbing and height safety where incidents have occurred and been investigated.

[quote=footflaps ]You didn't read law did you.....

nor engineering or metallurgy. I'm still waiting for details on these alloys which are quite unlike any other metals.

The ones I was taught about don't change at all when not in use.

With the likes of nuts, cams, etc it's not just the obvious - even designed to take falls, the pivots, forgings, cables, etc are subjected to torsional loads, camming loads and many others - repeatedly.
They design that into them by actually softening certain parts/alloys intentionally.

Would you have any more details on that "softening", because it's the first I've heard of it, and it would be a very strange thing to do with any load bearing metal, particularly parts which might be subject to wear like pivots. The best way to withstand all those loads is for the bits to be as tough as possible (not necessarily hard, as that tends to mean brittle, but certainly not soft either).

Not my job - the people that actually design them write the rules and they say 10yrs.

They might say that, but regarding deterioration of metals in unused (or barely used) equipment, there is no scientific basis for it. As I wrote above, it might be a very crude rule of thumb for equipment which has been regularly used, but that's about as far as it goes, and if an engineer has had any input it will only be on that basis.

A steel biner - 20yrs, maybe if barely used and well maintained.
Alloy?
Not a chance.

Your only basis for making such a statement is effectively hearsay. The BMC are the ones giving sensible advice here.

...I did go through this when I resurrected my old climbing kit and put new textiles on - I've found a thread I referred to when reslinging a Friend, the following comment is from Wild Country:

CE doesn't allow for repair of metalwork over ten years because when we accept it for repair if we send it out again we have to be able to verify it's state and CE have deemed that beyond 10 years products are in an unverifiable state (they have assigned each product a 'lifespan').

So it's not even the manufacturers setting such a rule, it's a blanket ruling from CE (reading between the lines it appears WC also think it's a bit arbitrary). I'll take back any insinuations I've made about their motivations!

The manufacturers give a lifespan because they have to. The BMC give guidance because they have to, and it looks to be sensible and well moderated. But I can pretty much guarantee that there will be people working in every one of those manufacturers (and the BMC) using gear past its official sell by date. Me, I placed a nut tonight bought with my school dinner money, more years ago than I'd care to mention. It was pretty much the best gear I placed all night (I had a couple pop out, hey turns out I'm a bit crap at trad these days). Sensible use is not always the same as what's in the small print.

Just realised the majority of my climbing rack is 15 years old.
Not good as planning a trip in may and now need to replace nearly all of it.
Bugger

You're replacing the metal bits? 😯

Nah just the fabric s stuff. Trouble is the rockcentrics are on dyneema slings

Going to resling the cams with 30cm 8mm dyneema slings, as wild Country won't touch them.
Need to try and make something with the ropes though as shame to kill them, the twin ropes still smell of the water resistant coating the factory applied even though they have been used a fair bit. Shame really

How do you re-sling the cams without sending them away? This thread has depressed me: I started buying my kit when I was 17. Certainly the bulk of it when I was 20-23. I'm now 40...the 8mm 60m ropes we got for our wedding 11 years ago have seen hardly any use. Certainly no leader falls. pffftt.

Some manufacturers will resling cams... but not if they are more than X years old (I remember hearing about someone who lost a few cams when he sent them to be reslinged and the manufacturer binned them!)

I keep meaning to try this for ropes:

How do you re-sling the cams without sending them away?

I think older than 10 years and Wild Country won't do it. Not sure about others.

You can DIY with cord or tape and a double/triple fisherman's or tape knot if you find a friendly shop that sells short lengths...
http://www.needlesports.com/3334/cord--and--tape.aspx

Needle Sports will even sell you the recommended lengths:
https://tinyurl.com/kjbzd9l

I'm sure there'll be people along to tell you you'll die, but there are people who haven't yet 🙂

There's a bit more here:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=649228

I'm going to resling with 8mm slings, just thread through and clip both ends. Just trying to work out what to use to ensure the 2 ends stay together so i don't manage to unclip one

I suppose I should join in this discussion since writing some of those manufacture's instructions is actually my day job....

I am an engineer, I'm also the technical manager of a rope company and responsible for their R and D, QC, CE approval etc.

It's true most ropes get a 10 year shelf life, not because after 10 years they'll not work but because there's evidence that 10 year old ropes are still ok if stored correctly. I've tested ropes older than that that have met their 'as new' performance. I do have to put a figure on the datasheet though, so 10 years it is!

Regarding the markings; Often the centre tape mentioned up there ^ only gives a year of manufacture, there may be other codes in marker yarns etc but often without the ferrules or the labels it's only possible to track a rope to the type and year of manufacture.

It's good practice to down rate old ropes as they get old and perhaps use then in less critical applications. They certainly shouldn't be sold for climbing!

Bear in mind that this is a story I heard in a training course that was probably 6th hand but I was told that a rope access company in Australia left a rope on a roof by mistake once. They were back on the building 2 years later and retrieved it. Did some 'testing' back in their unit, shock loading with weights, dropping a dummy onto a toothed backup device (Petzl ASAP) etc and it performed identically to new stuff.
Nevertheless I'd happily use the metalwork if it didn't show much sign of wear or damage but I'd never use out of date fabric or second hand, it's not worth the risk to me.
Old rope makes great dog leads! Have used old dynamic 9mm stuff as storm straps for my caravan awning too.

I have a load of stuff in the loft, must be 20 years old. If I ever take up climbing again, I'll re-buy everything. I was always nervous climbing, now I'm 20 years older I don't need even more stuff to worry about.

When I started climbing (early 1980s) it was common practice to make your own cord loops for loose nuts and hexentrics. It meant you could make the loops the correct length for you. Presumably it was the PPE regs that led to pre-made slings.

I used to retire ropes when they "didn't feel right", given the amount of climbing I was doing this was usually one season, i.e. one for summer and one for winter.

@grahamt1980 do you mean tape (flat) or cord (thin rope)? If the former then a straight length of tape tied with a tape knot, if the latter then use a double fishermans knot.

Tape - have got some lengths coming and some 8mm sewn slings to try out and see what works best

From memory I don't recall many nuts requiring tape rather than cord, I'm sure there must have been some since I do remember threading some with tape. Possibly the larger Hexentrics - you could arrange it so that the knot sat inside the hollow centre of the Hex. This would have been on the original models, once Kevlar/Dyneema cord came out they reduced the size of the holes to match that. Until then each size required a different diameter cord otherwise the Hex would slide around on the loose cord.

I think this conversation is turning into a good example of "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing"

I'm going to resling with 8mm slings, just thread through and clip both ends. Just trying to work out what to use to ensure the 2 ends stay together so i don't manage to unclip one

This sounds like an additional unnecessary risk. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Either get it properly re-slinged, perhaps larks foot it, or just tie it properly.

Having said which...

If the former then a straight length of tape tied with a tape knot,if the latter then use a double fishermans knot

Christ no. Tape knots and 2fishs are only suitable for certain types of sling and cord. Much of the newer, stronger, thinner software is also slipperier, and thus NOT SUITABLE for old school knots.

Fair enough, ask on here for advice on fence posts, divorce, coffee and other unimportant things, but please be careful with important stuff like climbing gear.

About half the posts above have a common theme (and I include myself in that group) of "I gave up climbing about 20 years ago, still have some kit lying about and have a very out of date knowledge about how things used to be done ie tape knots.

Not done it but this looks like a neat hack. You'd never really need to take the crab off (and risk clipping one loop only) almost like a captive loop on a quickdraw. http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Equipment/ReslingCams/Resling.htm

Re: above. TRIPLE fishermans is recommended for modern slippery dyneema cord

@thegeneralist

Fair enough. The slippy stuff is usually some form of kevlar or dyneema (or has some content of same), the older style nylon cord is fine.

Having said that I've an original rigid stemmed Friend 2 1/2 that I've a Kevlar loop threaded through one of the holes in the stem. I know exactly where and when I fitted it: Sept 1984 at the Shawanagunks in New York State. It was common practice there as the horizontally bedded rock had lots of shallow slots meaning that falling on the loop at the end of the stem could cause the stem to bend/snap. It's still tight now so there must have been some "trick" to ensuring that it didn't come loose. (I haven't used that Friend for many years so don't worry on that score)

Hang on, larks foot the sling on the end of a cam?
That will produce a much weaker link that most things.
Ok my climbing gear is relatively old but it doesn't mean i haven't climbed in 15 years.
Will replace the cams in due course but for now the slings feel fine but i would rather ensure they are fine and by threading a sewn sling through the eyelet and securing the end with non-load bearing stitching to locate the krab it will retain the strength.
I can't be arsed to faff around with the hexes as they only cost 50 ish quid to replace.
Ropes are going to make something more entertaining as the new ones are in the post, even though it pains me to bin the twin ropes

When I started climbing (early 1980s) it was common practice to make your own cord loops for loose nuts and hexentrics.

In the old days, climbing shops would routinely cut cord to length for hexs, Moacs etc and tie the knot for the customer. I guess you can't do that kind of thing any more 🙂

On a related topic, is there somewhere that will take in old climbing equipment for recycling? Like many on this thread I have a box of (unused) climbing equipment that I don't want to simply put in landfill.

Our local wall (awesome Stockport) has a wheelie bin for recycling climbing gear...

Thanks dashed. I'm not far from Stockport.

[quote=stever ]Not done it but this looks like a neat hack. You'd never really need to take the crab off (and risk clipping one loop only) almost like a captive loop on a quickdraw. http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Equipment/ReslingCams/Resling.htm
Re: above. TRIPLE fishermans is recommended for modern slippery dyneema cord

That's exactly what I have done on my Friend and it works very well (though yet to be tested in a fall). ISTR I got the cord from a shop which sells specific lengths for exactly that use.

Agreed on the triple fishermans for dyneema (or other brand names for that). Exactly how the cord was tied on my rocks on cord when I bought them, and exactly how I've retied them. My hexes are on normal nylon cord/rope tied with double fishermans (and like all my other kit, that was replaced a couple of years ago).

You certainly can still buy the cord to put on hexes etc., though I guess you wouldn't get a shop to tie it for you any more. Not the hardest thing to do if you're competent with climbing ropework - I'd be a bit dubious about climbing with somebody who wasn't capable of doing it themselves!