[Closed] Self defence

So what you forgot to mention in your first post is that they were armed, and there wasn't a similar number at all.

Bit different then.

I didn't mention they were armed. They tended to be when I was a lad.

But, whatever... a large group of nasty lads, armed or otherwise are likely to fill in the nastiest of ninjas, meat heads or keyboard warriors.

But, whatever... a large group of nasty lads, armed or otherwise are likely to fill in the nastiest of ninjas, meat heads or keyboard warriors.

Yes definitely, but not a similar number of skinny youths vs huge, nasty, kickboxers.

I'm not saying this to brag, just to give background.
I teach Judo and have a background of 15 years of Karate and Muay Thai.
Judo is a sport, as is Muay Thai.
They are fun, will get you fit, make you mentally and physically tougher and have lots of techniques you can carry over into street brawling.
It's not just about techniques though. Your mentality, the other guys mentality, weapons, numbers and sheer bloody luck all factor in just as much.
Take a martial art if you want, just don't kid yourself on that it's turning you into the ultimate street warrior.

In the 15 to 1 scenario the OP posted, theres no way I'd be hanging around trying to face any of that lot down. How did the event develop anyway? Did 15 guys just decide they were having you or had there been a bit of verbal going on?

franciscobegbie where do you teach or any recommendations in the Manchester area?

I was thinking of taking up Judo (originally was thinking of Aikido).

flow, hope you don't mind me saying this but you seem very very confident in yourself and your club which is great. It just sounds like you might be in the '200th hour' stage. I think the term comes from flying where pilots are most likely to make a fatal mistake after they have 200 flight hours. There's a similar thing in most dangerous activities.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing or that you are cocky but you just seem to be the most confident in your abilities compared to others on this thread. Hope this doesn't sound patronising.

I did a lot of muay thai and MMA when I was younger. They are both great participation sports, it is fairly easy to grasp the basics but there is also a lot of room for progression or developing an interest in other martial arts. They're also good cross training. I have a friend who is doing Krav Maga at the minute who is very impressed with it.

The biggest benefit that I got out of it was self-control. Before I started I was was always panicked by confrontation or intimidation. Once I got used to training and sparring I started to think a lot more clearly about how a situation could develop, and how to react and avoid it. It doesn't take long to learn basic stuff like how to defend yourself against a push or punch, how to stop yourself being put on the ground, or how to move somebody out of the way when you need to leg it.

No idea Hora, I'm from Glasgow.
Have a look at the club finder bit of the BJA website for the north west.
Theres quite a few clubs in there.
http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/thesport/findclubresults.php
Judo is a tough old game. Prepare to hurt. Good fun though.

Theres a ton of really good Muay Thai camps around the north west of England, any quick google search for Muay Thai in the Manchester area will turn up loads.

Muay Thai is a sport, but Muay Boran isn't.

Traditional Muay Thai uses a lot of Muay Boran techniques (the direct ancestor of Muay Thai) and is a hell of a lot closer to street fighting than most other forms of Martial Art, as I'm sure you know.

MMA would be even closer still, as you are pretty much getting hit without gloves, fight on the ground etc.

Like you said, its not going to make you ultimate street fighter, but it will give you a hell of a better chance.

flow, hope you don't mind me saying this but you seem very very confident in yourself and your club which is great. It just sounds like you might be in the '200th hour' stage. I think the term comes from flying where pilots are most likely to make a fatal mistake after they have 200 flight hours. There's a similar thing in most dangerous activities.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing or that you are cocky but you just seem to be the most confident in your abilities compared to others on this thread. Hope this doesn't sound patronising.

I haven't been for getting on for a year now, I would get my ass handed to me if/when I go back.

I am very confident in the club and coach though, they have just got back from the ICO world cup in Frankfurt, 7 golds, 4 silvers and 2 bronze medals. He has also produced some of the best fighters in the country.

If anyone is thinking about training Muay Thai, I would recommend him.

franciscobegbie -thanks. Will look up those links. Muay Thai - Its not something that I need or want tbh. I don't have disputes with neighbours and when I go out I don't get into trouble. Plus as I get 'older' it'd be suicidal to go toe to toe with someone.

IF I did get into a fight I wouldn't fight normal anyway. I'd fight to win which I imagine the other person would as well. Horrible, nasty stuff. 🙁

I'd rather run away than take a chance that a some super power martial art would even the odds and that the police and then a jury would look kindly on my use of that art to maim the badies.

What Bruce wee said but he forgot the filipino martial arts 😉
15:1 and unarmed the only thing to do is run and dont stop.
15:1 and no where to run invloves getting your head kicked in even if you take some with you..no matter what art you do.

Any martial art that pushes you hard and has you spar or fight with hard contact is going to increase your chances, but they are all sports, practiced in controlled environments, usually 1v1.

Want to know the best way to increase your chances 100%?
Don't put yourself in the position where you are going to get into fights.

Theres always someone harder and meaner than you out there.

BTW you know what SAS operatives have been told to do if they get into a situation whilst under cover in Northern Ireland?

Don't go toe to toe and get out of there asap.

Even 15:1 if the 15 aren't particularly competent and the 1 is, may still have a cahnce.

Ie, possibly similar odds - I pulled some little bloke off as he was going to head butt my friend. A large group of his mates came out to 'help' and I had 5/6 all trying to drag me off him (as I had said initially, I would let go when he calmed down) - no punches thrown, but were when I let go. Had about 5 separate people attack me, but it was pub chucking out time and the only bloke I even bothered to block punches from was 6'4" or so and well built - but even then he was far to slow.
Of course if they hadn't been near falling down themselves or had some sort of coordinated attack, things would have no doubt been different. This was a small town where, while fights were regular, there was very little skill or thought in the fighting thankfully.

uff, stay on topic guys. I'm looking for a way to defend myself should the opportunity arise where i may need it again. In part, it's simply a way to gain confidence again, this has not improved my nerves.

So the people who are bickering about the state of the law, well that's not helping my situation and it deserves to be on another thread. I'm living in Finland, so the fine details of UK law do not apply to me anyway.

What I'm looking for is a way to..
-improve my ability to block hits, stop hits, disarm an attacker if knives were used
-stay calm in an attack
-be aware of how to manage a group attack

Yes I legged it that time and i was lucky to do so. I don't fancy my odds again, especially when the snow and ice comes in a couple of months.

Thank you to those who have contributed positively, it really does help.

Rich

To the Op. Learning to "defend" yourself is'nt entirely about having the physical skills to parry an attack. The warning signs were probably there before you realised what was about to happen. Learning to anticipate why & how things like this develop would serve you well. The physical skills are useless without nous to use them & also take a lifetime to learn properly. Also the fear of getting hurt can cause panic & from then on it's a downward spiral

If you get bounced by a group you have don't have a lot of options & IMO the best one at any point is to escape. If you're cornered & fail to charm your way out a 2nd prize is on the horizon. I think in a situation like you've described, if escape is impossible, is to ensure that one of the opposition goes to hospital in the same ambulance as you.

I'd concentrate on the escaping bit & run away. Sorry to hear about your finger 😥

D.

secondly, the lads were junkies and bored teenagers/low twenties. There was no verbal or anything. They simply wanted to batter us (1 peruvian, 1 basque and 1 brit in Helsinki...).

I have wondered in the past about carrying and using a walking stick? sort of quarterstaff style. reasonable excuse for carrying a walking stick and reasonable defensive weapon I guess

I have wondered in the past about carrying and using a walking stick? sort of quarterstaff style. reasonable excuse for carrying a walking stick and reasonable defensive weapon I guess

All fine and dandy until you swing it at someone and they take it off you.

Run away, the best and only solution in mnay situations.

Actually, you are thinking about this all wrong. You got away. You sucessfully defended yourself.
Very well done!

You do have an altogether unrealistic view of what self defence is.
For example, if you think you will have trouble running away from trouble once it's snowy or icy, what makes you think you'll be able to keep to your feet in a fight in the same circumstances?

Keep your ego and pride in check and you'll be fine. There may have been no verbal warning that those 15 guys were going to go for you, but I bet it didn't come out of the blue.

If all you genuinely want to do is fight off 15 kids then my advice would be to grab one of their ears and rip it off. Ears come off surprisingly easily. Try to burst their noses. If you get stuck in a clinch then try to bite them, not just a love bite but actually rip the flesh off. Basically what you want to do is create as much blood as possible to make the others think twice. If you can, grab one by the balls, twist, and pull as hard as you can. With luck you will detach them.

If you don't want to put in the hours of training then that's the best way of defending yourself I can recommend since there's no point in learning to block attacks or punch without constantly training.

Alternatively, do what someone suggested on the thread about confrontations with car drivers a while ago. Get your knob out, start swinging it in a circle while screaming "BUDGIE THE HELIICOPTEEEER!!!!" If that doesn't scare them off I don't know what will.

Good luck 🙂

I did a "self defence for women" course a few years ago, and the key message was centred around what some of the guys mentioned above:

- develop an awareness for your surroundings at all times
- learn a few 'techniques' how to just momentarily incapacitate your attacker long enough to get away and RUN

Interestingly our instructor recommended not to go for the kick-in-the-nuts approach first, but kick shins, punch the bit between the nose and the upper lip, gouge the eyes, bite their hand if grabbed - it's actually surprisingly easy for guys to protect their crotch 😳

I'd happily be verbally abused and/or pushed around. Happily if it meant it de-escalated.

right I think there has been a major misunderstanding here as ever on STW. I'm not expecting to fend off 15 people, that's ridiculous and likely impossible. However should it be, say, 1-3 people it is most certainly possible. Now, I'm not sure which of judo, karate, muay thai, etc are best for this.

Running is not always an option, but I know it is the first to try. If however I'm not quick enough and negotiation doesn't work, then what should I do? I'd like some training to focus, apply the necessary force to stop an attack and then flee. I don't want to cause serious harm to anyone, but I want to prevent or delay harm to myself.

Muay thai sounds interesting, and so does maga grav. I'll see if there are any groups around here.

I don't want to cause serious harm to anyone

Why not?

HansRey, if you are close to Swinley, Herne Bay, or Eltham, get to a Warriors Gym and try Muay Thai, you will be hooked after the first session.

If you do, make sure you let us know how you got on.

I always remember at school getting a briefing on self defence ( I think because we were a public school so there were always a few class war tw@s who fancied a go when they saw us out and about) and being told that you could put your keys between your fingers and use them as a knuckle duster... 😯 I'm still shocked that that was suggested even 20 years later...

So am I, you would probably break your fingers doing that.

Probably...

disarm an attacker if knives were used

I don't want to cause serious harm to anyone, but I want to prevent or delay harm to myself.

Now, I'm not sure which of judo, karate, muay thai, etc are best for this.

As above - I would and did go for Krav Maga because it's specifically focused on this sort of situation.

I'd be tempted to throw some Muay Thai in so you get more experience of 'real' combat. Obviously you won't be practising the eye gouging or kicks to the groin you'll find in Krav, but will get a 'feel' for combat.

Interestingly our instructor recommended not to go for the kick-in-the-nuts approach first, but kick shins, punch the bit between the nose and the upper lip, gouge the eyes, bite their hand if grabbed - it's actually surprisingly easy for guys to protect their crotch

Now, I'm not sure which of judo, karate, muay thai, etc are best for this.

Its almost inevitable that this will start another argument but a decent MMA club is your best option because they will start you from scratch with a range of practical techniques for both striking and grappling and fighting on the ground. The last place you want to end up is on the ground so it is very valuable to learn how to avoid ending up there, and how to react if you do.

It can be difficult to find a decent club and if you find somewhere you like that does muay-thai, krav maga of BJJ then all of them are good sports and help with self-defence.

I'd just take up running.

If someone attacked me in the street I would probably have to assume that they are the type of person who gets involved in lots of fights so has a lot more experience in a fight then me. I'd also assume they are criminally minded in that they won't be fighting fair and won't be thinking of the consequences of their actions and how the law might view them. As they came out with the intent of fighting then chances are they have a weapon or backup. So they have the element of suprise, experience and are better armed... I'd leg it every time.

Just learn Judo - as it is a defensive sport the use of it won't be held against you by anyone, whereas something like boxing or karate could be as these are primarily offensive sports.

You will be able to use the skills of judo into later like, whereas you are unlikely to maintain your karate fitness and flexibility into old age.

Plus the the fall training in Judo will be useful.

A self defence course might also be useful - learning a few disabling manouvres before legging it - for example a punch in the adams apple is a major shock to the system.

Going off topic... What if you're with someone who can't run, Well can't run fast be it wife or children?
just a thought!

And what if the other guys are on a conveyor belt?

As already mentioned in the thread - 15 to 1 forget it, run as fast as the wind will carry you. I've not trained in martial arts but used to do a lot of boxing whic if nothing else teaches you to take a punch without being shocked by it. I've been in a couple of "situations" where I have used self defence and they've never ended well. The first was when I thought I was big enough to handle 3 youths - I wasn't. The second was when I was set upon by 2 guys, who I managed to get the better off and gave them something to think about - they did, and 2 weeks later found me with 2 more of their mates.

[i]Going off topic... What if you're with someone who can't run, Well can't run fast be it wife or children?[/i]

Looks like you're in the clear in that situation.

Anyway, there's only one form of defence that will work against 15 people.

I don't know whether you're allowed to carry mace sprays or stuff like that in Finland, but this UK-based website sells personal alarms and things that emit gas and incapacitating sprays into people's faces. I also liked the sound of the alarm that emits a really ear-piercing sound, that would surely have a disabling effect on any would-be attackers, or give you time, armed with mace to get away!!

http://www.c-p-p.co.uk/_personal_alarms/asp/CtgID/1006/af/page.htm

Try and find some sort of basic breakaway training that includes rescue techniques (rib rubs etc) or whatever the local equivalent is, and as said before learn to spot the signs and get the hell out of dodge as soon as you can.

Krav Maga would be my choice if i was going to follow a structured path though. Also worth looking at stuff by people like Geoff Thompson for ideas as well.

Self defence? Imagine you really, really hurt one of them. How do think the rest of them are gonna react?

Depends. They may be behind you waving their hands around waiting for their turn as you turn each one over/deliver killer kick.

They are fun, will get you fit, make you mentally and physically tougher and have lots of techniques you can carry over into street brawling.
It's not just about techniques though. Your mentality, the other guys mentality, weapons, numbers and sheer bloody luck all factor in just as much

This. I used to be competitive at national level for Judo, at an age when the occasional random small town violence was a risk for me. It helped on a couple of occasions, and I always made sure any trouble ended up on the floor as soon aspossible, where I stood a chance of incapacitating. On every occasion, I ran first. I don't have the mentality to really go through with an act I know will cause lasting harm.

Unfortunately there are plenty of people out there who are stupid enough to do it, and may even be armed for the purpose. Don't become a statistic.

If you are seriously, genuinely protecting others like your family and not just posturing, well, I guess anything goes. Just hope I'm never in such a situation.