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Good suggestion on talking to a fabricator direct. found one, but looks like assembly is only if its a clean site. so they won’t do stuff like prop up the ceiling whilst the beams are put in.
definitely agree the steels need to be done by a team that know what they are doing.
If you wanted to PM the drawings I could give you a rough idea of what you should be paying ( and an idea of where you are in the country as prices vary)
My Dad also did an extension but with help where it was needed. Architect did the design, we put it through planning, and he had a mate who did the external bricks whilst my dad did the blocks on the inside. He did the electrics (qualified), the water, the windows and the roofing, but had someone else do the gas.
This is probably a good way to do it - mix and match, do what you can and have others in for specific bits you can't. It only took about 6 months or so.
Also I've been laying my first few bricks on a tiny thing in the garden, so I'll amend this:
Laying bricks properly IE accurate and tidy and quickly is hard
Builders that do their own extensions seem to fall in to 2 camps, those that complete the work quickly and to a high standard, and those that never finish.
If you’ve got 3 x structural walls to remove and [goalpost] steels to fit then I’m not really sure this is DIY territory.
The potential for getting it wrong is pretty high.
The hard part, doing all the calcs and making the steels to spec is done for you - all you have to do is bolt it together and sit it on pad stones / set in concrete etc as per the spec. The structural engineers drawings will details all that for you.
4 day course sounds like it covers what I would need, but at £585 probably not a huge saving
I think you may be *vastly* underestimating the cost of a bricklayer.
The hard part, doing all the calcs and making the steels to spec is done for you – all you have to do is bolt it together and sit it on pad stones / set in concrete etc as per the spec.
That's not true is it.....and you know it's not.
The bit laying the beams on the pad stones where the beam could be the width of the room and right up to ceiling height easy aye right
Sometimes the pad stones have to be built in last
The spec of the steel will tell you how many kg/m and when it's 5 or 6m long you need to know what your doing manoeuvring it into place and your standing on trestles and batons, better to use kwikstage scaffolding to work off and to rest the beams if needed
Metal cutting holesaw as some engineers insist on bolting cavity wall horizontal beams together
All easy safe work if it's your first time ?
I can confirm it is a very awkward job. I had to put the beam inside the house on the inside of the wall that was coming out, install all the akrows around it, dig out the pad stone foundations, install steel reinforced concrete, knock down exterior wall - then finally lift steel in, mount the columns, cement in the column bases then chemset in the ties and bolts to existing brickwork
Simples.......
Picture
The hard part, doing all the calcs and making the steels to spec is done for you – all you have to do is bolt it together and sit it on pad stones / set in concrete etc as per the spec. The structural engineers drawings will details all that for you.
Yes and no, the calcs and spec are done but typically in my experience you, or your builder, will have to check and record the final measurements (i.e. span) to ensure any beam is the correct size for the location, the SE will only give a 'ballpark' dimension.
When you can't use a genie lift cut the beams in two and bolt together
https://postimg.cc/gallery/Vvjk9TC
thanks for all your comments. I've gone through the breakdown on the one quote we have had
To get to a watertight shell, no electrics, plumbing, heating or plastering is £60k + VAT. Adding in everything takes it to £91k + VAT. Biggest ticket item is UFH for the kitchen, new boiler and tank at £9k + VAT
Honestly think the only way we can stretch the budget is to do as much as I can myself and just accept it will take a long time. We are lucky that most of the work is the basically in what is our double garage so it the rest of the house can be largely untouched during work
Still having the debate with my wife whether we go ahead or not. Frankly its really put me off talking to any more builders, wasting an hour showing them round and talking them through the plans only to be likely ghosted
@revs1972 I sent you a pm with the breakdown for the steels - can't see a way to pm you the diagram
We are lucky that most of the work is the basically in what is our double garage so it the rest of the house can be largely untouched during work
Still having the debate with my wife whether we go ahead or not.
I think this will make a big difference. Mine was similar. The new kitchen is in an extension and the old kitchen became the utility. That meant all the building work was external. That could all be done with minimal disruption. The final knock through only took a week or so and we always had a working kitchen. Made it pretty pain free.
My hole in the ground is slowly getting bigger and I've managed to source all the steel reinforcing to go in it. Most common reply was "that comes from the steel works in the Ukraine and we have no idea when we'll next get any".
We fell out with our builder - he walked off our ground floor extension with the entire back of the house on acrkows, footings poured, steels in and us out of pocket. To get back on budget we did a lot of the basic work ourselves and managed the trades.
It nearly broke me I wouldn't recommend it. Looking back it was 18 months of my life wasted living in a building site and I would happily move somewhere else. 8 years on I can't face any DIY or finishing the outstanding bits.
Bought a brick glue applicator for 48e second-hand and made teh hole a bit bigger. That'll do for today.
Still having the debate with my wife whether we go ahead or not. Frankly its really put me off talking to any more builders, wasting an hour showing them round and talking them through the plans only to be likely ghosted
Now imagine how much time a builder has to "waste" to provide you a quote for an extension you can't afford, but you will hold them to...
The hard part, doing all the calcs and making the steels to spec is done for you – all you have to do is bolt it together and sit it on pad stones / set in concrete etc as per the spec.
Yeah.... I didn't really mean that bit! Before you get to that point you've got to remove the [structural] wall above the new steel without it dropping even a few mm.
Definitely easier said than some in some cases and not something I'd be doing personally.
When you can’t use a genie lift cut the beams in two and bolt together
Weird! Why didn't they put it in as a single piece?
There are times when you just can't get the beams through the acros,scaffold and a forklift/JCB can get access so two thick, deep beams can be cut into two and bolted together again
It maybe looks easy on an engineers drawing. Choose your engineer carefully, some get too carried away with their calcs and think we live on the San Andreas fault rather than St Andrews
I'm in seismic zone 4. Euro code 8 and the corresponding national documents are my guide. It's pretty easy really, all the steel reinforcing I buy is available in three different grades: zone 1/2, zone 3 and zone 4.
It took us two years to find a good builder, at times we didn’t think it would ever happen and I think we snook in at the right time. We have converted a small garage into a new entrance hall for the house with the rest of the extension having a bathroom with shower, lounge and stairs going up to a really nice bedroom. They also put a big skylight in the roof of the main house. The builders worked like demons, went above and beyond and came in on time at bang on 33k. We are still scratching our heads at the price as it really is a lovely job. We’ve had it for nearly two years and the builders have gone on to do extensions for several of our friends… good builders that don’t cost the Earth can occasionally be found! 🙂 we had a lot of builders turn up and not quote before that…
About to push go on an extension, single floor, 4x5m internal with some groundwork’s/retaining elements. It will be a good finish with reclaimed stone, stone pitched roof and high spec windows… £70k excluding the kitchen. I’m fairly handy DIY-wise and I know there will be mark up on materials, but for the ‘convenience’ of having it done in a matter of months rather than years, plus the risk of it going pear shaped I’m some form or other… that’s potentially a good way to lose a lot of money. Get the pros in, everyday.
Now imagine how much time a builder has to “waste” to provide you a quote for an extension you can’t afford, but you will hold them to…
bit of a dick comment, so far only one builder has "wasted time" quoting, and actually they haven't as we might go with them for the shell if we can cut back on other areas.
simple customer service from the other 5 builders would be to say sorry mate not interested rather than ignoring (1 did answer his phone and say now booked for 2 years, which I'm sure is code for bugger off). what is the point of looking at a job if you have no intention of quoting for it?
I'm 6+ months into this, and several k spent already. Struggling to get a quote wasn;t one of the things I thought would be an issue
but for the ‘convenience’ of having it done in a matter of months rather than years, plus the risk of it going pear shaped I’m some form or other… that’s potentially a good way to lose a lot of money. Get the pros in, everyday.
Getting the "pros" in is no guarantee of getting it done quickly or not losing a lot of money. One reason to DIY can be better control over the timing and money.
I have done a few extensions myself and the main driver was to cut cost which it did by lots.
Reflecting back on it the important things and difficulties were:
Dust and mess and mud
Motivation to progress it every day, and know when to rest and have some family/other half time.
Picking up materials/accepting deliveries if at work.
Lighting in the winter and the cold stopping work
It takes time but is rewarding and you get exactly what you want. I found suppliers, building control, structural engineers... all very nice helpful people, just treat them right.
Sometimes it is best to just pay a contractor, especially if it needs a certification, other times for speed ( I'm thinking a brickie)
My kids helped me lots and now have a great work ethic from it and live in a big house. They have seen me graft, stop to eat, carry on with a head torch on and then repeat.
It won't be easy but so rewarding mentally and financially.
Getting the “pros” in is no guarantee of getting it done quickly or not losing a lot of money
Correct, but the guy building it is local, a master craftsman concerning stone built buildings, and ‘gets’ the style of the buildings round here. Plus I’ve spoken to three of his recent projects (as well as inspecting them myself) who have all given a glowing recommendation on his general building work and attention to detail. Eyes wide open.
Six weeks in I have some foundations and have sourced enough materials to keep me busy for a few months:
Given the terrain (I'm a geologist remember) and climate I decided 50cm deep and just wide enough to accomodate 20x35 reinforcing with the required clearance would do. Raised 5cm so the bricks don't sit in damp ground.
Well good news from our project, found a builder who was free immediately and quoted a sensible, rather than take the piss price. They started this week. by day 3 we already have the footings and first 2 courses of block work in, with BC sayign the ok. Would have taken me weeks to get to this stage.
Downside of this guy is they will have a 3 week break in august due to leave, but compare that to the builders saying they can't start until the following year....
So far the drainage is turning out to be fun, as expected with a 100 year old house that has been hacked around at least twice before. Guys are doing a great job keeping the house habitable whilst they work.
So far very very impressed. I'm sure there will be some other hiccups along the way, but so far big progress. They did break one of my coffee mugs though
found a builder who was free immediately
Normally a bit of an eyebrow-raiser, but glad it's working out for you so far.
Had a break when relatives visited but back in action now. The bricks are R1.18 Terreal. The first row goes on a couple of cms of waterproof mortar then the are glued. Cutting them is dusty and a pain but it's much easier to keep everything even and vertical than with normal bricks.
I'm thinking we might be seeing more availability as customers get cold feet about escalating prices. this chap was free because someone decided to not go ahead with the work due to escalating prices.
got to say I am nervous about that too. we are fixed price on most stages, but the steels and wall removal is t&m as he said he couldn't guarantee a price on materials. which I think is fair enough
he is a friend of my current boss and has done several jobs for him, so slight personal connection. and seems a great guy.
fingers crossed
I’m thinking we might be seeing more availability as customers get cold feet about escalating prices. this chap was free because someone decided to not go ahead with the work due to escalating prices.
This.
Towards the end of last year myself and the missus planned a rear extension to the last screw. It was effectively a 4m x 8m (ish), living area extension with a small side entrance/utility room to shove the dirty hounds. Really straightforward build, no kitchen, services all really accessible, no weird angles and myself doing a lot of the final fix. Thinking a 50k-ish max job.
Nope.
All 4 quotes came in at about the 90k mark and that didn't include flooring and outside ground work etc. At the time we were flabbergasted and looking back now pleased we didn't add what would have probably been another 100k+ on the mortgage.
Hoping prices might eventually come down too as it's something we would still like to do so we'll see how it pans out over the next year or so.
Terreal
I am not sure why these are not popular over here. You seem them all over mainland Europe. I don't know if it's fashion / style or if there is a technical reason. -\_/-
prices are unlikley to drop anytime soon. I'm an architect and work in the domestic market with contractors i've worked with for a number of years. there may be a recession on the way but other factors (wars/brexit/inflation) will keep material prices high for a good while. factor into this everyone in this sector is phenomenally busy and will be for the next 12mnths at least.
Its been extremely hard to manage clients expectations of cost over the last couple of years, we used to use a rough budget of £2K /sqm to give a guide price for a relatively simple extension this is now anywhere between 2-3K often higher. A recent job cost returned with slightly too high cost, by the time we'd value engineered (omitted stuff, costed alternatives) materials cost rises meant the client is now getting less building for more money.
Any self build project is great and a good way to control cost but you're definitely better using professionals for certain things or anything that requires certification. Recognise your strengths and use them but know when you will be crap at something. I know joiners who have tried laying bricks as brickies weren't available .....it had to be rendered it was soo bad. So if oyur strengths are project management then project manage, (caveat-IT/Finance project management is really not the same as managing subcontractors or a building project) if you are decent with joinery do those bits!
I'd self build for sure if I had time but i know whats supposed to happen when and how!
got to say I am nervous about that too. we are fixed price on most stages, but the steels and wall removal is t&m as he said he couldn’t guarantee a price on materials. which I think is fair enough
Just starting to see a slight decrease in steel prices at the moment, but with fabrication costs rising due to electric / gas / consumable increases it balances it out, so should be roughly the same price as you were getting 6 weeks ago.
I notice the prices of ply and timber etc have come down a little bit in the big warehouses, yet merchants have gone up a bit.
After a long hot Summer of ignoring the pile of building materials I've found the motovation to continue my lego extension. The lintels proved to be a battle between a 10 stone something weakling and a lot of gravity:
Good call on the clay blocks. 😎
Umm.... If that's the lintel then it looks like there's not nearly enough bearing at the ends 😬
(Might not be the lintel though!)
Depends if the bit of wood is staying 🙂
Ahh. I thought the weird was just too hold the lintel up.
Would it be easier just to buy a new house ?
Quite possibly, but DT78's house is in a pretty good location.