there are BIG cats in Scotland
And then you went downhill.... How long have 'native' domestic cats been in the UK?
9000 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat#Origins
edit: doh, how did I miss the domestic bit. Dumbass.
Have you ever tried washing a cat? An angry cat could rip a T-rex's face off, never mind a toddler!A very valid point zokes. To be honest I'd class trying to wash a cat as an absolute suicide mission!! Unless there was a jetwasher involved
I'm reliably informed (by this very website) that as long as you are wearing a bike helmet and deploy an emergency union jack, you will be fine.
Zokes I would say that "domesticated cats " have been living with/ interacting with humans for 1000's of years. Ahh see above post for more reliable facts 😀 you could show humility and admit that in this instance you may be wrong 😉 😉 😉
There was a fact on the show last night that stated that there is a 4 week window for kittens to get used to humans, if they dont have interaction in this window they go "feral" not sure how true that is but interesting.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/apr/18/scottish-wildcat-endangered-species
"Wildcats disappeared in lowland England around 1800," says Hetherington. "Then they vanished from Wales and northern England around 1860. Finally, they went from southern Scotland. All we have left is a few hundred around the Cairngorms and places like the Black Isle. The trick now is to find a way to stop them from disappearing completely."
@bigyinn you're right, I forgot about the Scottish wild cat. I did read an article recently that suggested they're extinct in the wild as a pure breed though, pretty sad.
I didn't see any Scottish Wilds in Shamley Green though.
I'll try again http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/pets/cats.shtml
The Romans, what have they ever done for us.
According to wikipedia wildcats came to the British Isles 9000 years ago. So they're not indigenous, either.
Ironically cross breeding with ferals and domestics is the biggest threat to the Scottish Wild, I believe.
According to wikipedia wildcats came to the British Isles 9000 years ago. So they're not indigenous, either.
Whats the cut off point then? By that reckoning none of us are English Welsh or Scottish 😆
According to wikipedia wildcats came to the British Isles 9000 years ago. So they're not indigenous, either.
Small matter of an Ice Age means not much is.
I suspect they'd bring back more prey if it was available
Well in the programme, the cats didn't spend much time hunting anyway, so that seems unlikely. They just weren't that bothered.
I think Australia needs to focus more on its camel problem before moaning about cats.
you could show humility and admit that in this instance you may be wrong
Humility being shown 😳
Not that I care, I'm just about to go for a night out... Enjoy your days at work northern hemispherians 😆
wallop - Member
I think Australia needs to focus more on its camel problem before moaning about cats.
POSTED 1 MINUTE AGO # REPORT-POST
Judging by the number of dead stinking ones where were were in the outback last weekend, someone is...
For the few who haven't seen it already, this is good:
[img] 
[/img]
Well in the programme, the cats didn't spend much time hunting anyway, so that seems unlikely. They just weren't that bothered.
If my cat's outdoors, he's hunting. If he's not actively chasing prey it's because there isn't any. He may get distracted, eg by a confrontation with another cat or by a female, but hunting is the default mode.
Whats the cut off point then? By that reckoning none of us are English Welsh or Scottish
🙂
Dunno what the cutoff point is, but I reckon after 2000 years the domestic cat should be considered indigenous.
Indigenous I think means part of the post-ice age repopulation of the British Isles. So I suppose technically us.
If my cat's outdoors, he's hunting.
Well if the show had one main point it was that cats aren't all alike.
Chuckling at the image of the mice and birds coming out for a scamper because the cat's on a break.
I suspect a lot of people, especially the "my fluffy Tiddles wouldn't hurt a fly" brigade haven't clocked on to what fearsome predators they are. Almost all of cats I'd bet.
To be fair, I'd wager most cat owners are aware of the predatory nature of their pets.
I might be wrong of course. I've just never met a cat owner that's come out with "he/she would never hurt a fly"
It doesn't take many maimed mice dropped on the kitchen floor for the human to play with to figure it out.
They'd soon be fully aware if they were 3 inches tall. 😆
Almost all of cats I'd bet.
Did you watch the show?
And the 'wouldn't hurt a fly' brigade are dog owners generally.
Did you watch the show?
He's watched half of it.
The half that didn't deal with hunting 😀
TBH, I was quite surprised at the small amount of hunting taking place - however I was amazed at the way cats are adopting to the increasing level of ownership & urbanisation.
Good programme.
I enjoyed the programme. My cat was out for most of it, and when she came back in spent most of her time looking behind the TV for all the *other cats*. Clearly not the brightest....
Gotta love STW.
I watched half last night, will probably watch the rest tonight. And I watched my cat for the last 6 years. I doubt he's atypical.
I had 2 cats that lived together from birth, but then when one died, the other would not accept a new one, so that one had to be rehomed,
so the six in one house was impressive.
would have liked to have seen more research/shown in the program, about that other that a few sentences,
was it down to owners?
was it down to food?
were they all kittens when growing up?
is it rare? common? etc
they seemed to be mixed gender too.
mattjg - MemberGotta love STW.
I was really surprised by the findings myself! 🙂
Must admit the hunting behaviour of the cats I've had over the years has varied massively:
The most aggressive was a cat born feral, which we adopted as a kitten because it had been rejected - the runt of the litter basically.
Although small, it used to have a go at Magpies, rats bigger than he was, next door's Westie (who he bullied unmercifully for years) rabbits, all sorts basically.
The current mog just can't be arsed - she's brought us a couple of birds and one mouse in the past five years.
Our cat selected us for his new home when he was 1, would be fascinating to have known what happened in his first year. Also he's French, perhaps he hasn't clocked on that British cats call a ceasefire for tiffin.
French?
Are you SURE it's a cat?
[img] 
[/img]
" my understand is cats are territorial, each defending their own patch. So how do urban feral cats, that I have seen living in large groups, deal with this?"
I used to believe this myth too, that cats were solitary. We have 4 cats. We started with one that had been abandoned by the bloke up the road when he decided to 'backpack round Europe' leaving his pets behind with no food. We soon found our new cat liked having a best friend and they would spend hours sat in the garden together.
Later he found a new best friend (a tabby) and they were so insistent on being together they defeated us and the orig owner of the tabby so then we had 2 cats here.
Then a cat that used to live with the tabby made life so difficult for the humans because he missed the cat that had moved here, that we ended up with 3 cats. These 3 spend nearly all their time together or nearish each other, often grooming each other or cuddled up. Sitting 'in the vacinity of' each other also seems a big deal to cats. None of my sample 3 are related and all are castrated males.
The determination to be with other cats they are friends with is staggering. They would go without food and sit out in the pooring rain in order to peer through the door or windows to try to be with each other. It was both pitiful and impressive. I found it quite shocking in a way as I had not expected such affection and loyalty from cats towards each other, as its not the press they are given.
Our 4th cat was a starving stray and not 'chosen' by the other 3. He gets on OK with them but its clear they just do not view him in the same close or affectionate manner as they do each other.
Some friends had a similar problem with 2 other cats who moved hell and high water to live in the same house together, so I think cat bonding may be very common.
I read a behaviour book that cats in large feral groups tend to group only because a large food supply - they are there because of the food availability and for no other reason. I would now say that is possibly incorrect and that cats are inclined to group (though perhaps would choose to be in smaller groups) by disposition but are usually unable to form such groups because there is not enough food to permit a density of cats or because humans intervene and hinder living choices.
I also now think when cats appear to not get on with other cats its sometimes just because they, like humans, seek out particular friends they select for themselves and just any old cat passing by is not acceptable to hang around with. This feeds into the territory thing as humans won't just have any human passing by in to the living room for a sit and a chat, but are quite happy to have close friends do so and cats take a similar view of who is allowed where.
I think (from my own observations) breeding territory may possibly be a separate issue and that breeding territories and size might vary by time of year, as in the UK cat breeding season is not all year round but dictated they the amount of daylight hours - cat hormones such as testosterone plummet in winter and increase as the daylight hours extend in spring.
Oh and for the kill issue, with 4 cats, 3 of whom are young and could hunt with ease, we get maybe 6 kills per year brought home total, but there are always biscuits down so the hunger factor is removed, so they only hunt for entertainment, which they don't seem to do very much of.
I've heard before they're happy to hang out together, but tend to hunt alone.
Possibly the humans in households fill in the roles, in the cat's view, that your cats do for each other. Certainly if we're in the garden our cat will usually come and settle down very near or with us.
Don't know how cats in groups resolve the territorial issue.
Have you seen the gps device is available soon on amazon?
G-Paws GPS Data Recorder
looks happy about wearing it?
[img] 
[/img]
All that CCTV and cat cameras, but they didn't manage to film a single cat pooping in a neighbours garden. Proof that cats are getting a lot of flack for something that is probably due to foxes, hedgehogs and other wild animals..........
The GPS wotsit: my cat regularly dumps collars that we don't recover, at fifty quid a pop that would quickly add up!
Hmmm good point, shame there is no way of locating said GPS collar
Have you ever tried washing a cat? An angry cat could rip a T-rex's face off, never mind a toddler!
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Hmmm good point, shame there is no way of locating said GPS collar
If you lost a Garmin how would you track it?
I actually did stick a GPS device on the collar of my cat. Cheapo thing off ebay, but did the trick very well.
Reason being it was spending time at another house who's family were feeding him. Very easy to track down once we got the data back.
The house in question was about 200m away which I was suprised by at the time. Seeing the track points and time stamps was interesting stuff.
I could't really blame the family too much. I didn't put a collar on him and he was so cheeky he would regularly wander in to houses or peoples cars as they got in. Adorable though and got away with murder.
Those things will sell well once someone cracks the problem of having them report in real time at a sensible cost.
I didn't put a collar on him and he was so cheeky he would regularly wander in to houses or peoples cars as they got in
A friend's cat once jumped in a Tesco delivery van, luckily she noticed and had to chase the van down the street as it pulled away.
"Don't know how cats in groups resolve the territorial issue. "
I will call the cats in my house the 'home group'.
From observation the home group will allow some select cats on to their
territory or to pass briefly through without open warfare. Some cats though are not liked by the group. Who is liked or disliked by the home group is not always a unanimous decision but often seems in alignment. Sometimes a cat will express total indifference to an interloper another home cat will dislike. This lack of consensus does not seem to matter to the members of the group.
I have observed a few times than an unliked cat will gradually become surrounded. However in doing this, the home group do not appear as far as I can tell to act in relation to each other - its more individual defence of the home area. So you get my main 3 all sitting or stalking about in the front or rear garden but almost as if the other 2 are not there, not so much working as a pack like dogs might. However the result to the intruder is clearly an issue as he or she is still being stared down by 3 separate enemies, usually from 3 separate fronts. I think it must make the situation difficult to predict as the interloper has potentially 3 different levels of irritation or anger or attack to cope with, as by not working as a group presumably the home cats may get to different stages of defence all at different times. I have not observed anything further than the 'staring and stalking' defence as usually an intruder will take cover or move off, often walking with that weird slow space walk to show lack of aggression.
Its quite unusual for an unwelcome cat to enter the home territory, I think because of the numbers issue. The one cat who does openly risk it is huge and very assertive. The home cats I think are not willing to take him on as individuals even though if they acted like a group he would not stand a chance. On the other hand, their not acting in a concerted way probably helps to avoid cats partaking in dangerous or risky fights and probably saves lives and prevent injuries. Risk is higher if you think of individual fights than it would be in a group fight for the attackers. Hence being individual seems to me to prevent some nasty experiences and perhaps shows a wise evolution rather than a mearly uncooperative one.
The 4th cat who is not a fully accepted member of the home group spends less time near the house, so presumably does quite a bit of socialising elsewhere, so he is more likely to play the role of an intruder on someone elses space. This makes his behaviour harder to observe but I have been told by other people that he has cat friends as he has been seen sitting and playing with other cats some distance from the house and a long way beyond the home cats territory.
I find cat behaviour very interesting as I think it is very misunderstood and misrepresented by humans. Animal societies are fascinating - I have been lucky enough as an amateur to observe group behaviours in pigs and goats over periods of years in the past. Goat social structures are very family based and quite complex.
Echo that cat behavior is fascintating. Some of the interactions among our cats is just weird but I am sure it makes sense to them.
Big cats in the wild such as Lions have complex pride relations, is it such a surprise that the small versions that live with us are just as complex.
All animals have personalities, in the herd I used to milk all the cows were individuals and had there place in the heirarchy of the herd.
Pigface, I don't watch wildlife programs, so I know nothing of large cat behaviour. I cant cope with watching things being hunted. Ironically I would not have chosen cats as pets because of thier hunting, but they chose our house. I am hugely glad thier hunting seems in such low quantities. I imagine lions working as a group must be interesting. I might try to read up about it, as less gore!
Is it true that cows enter the milking parlour in the same order every time? I have no experience with cows. I only had 8 goats so a bigger heard of cows must be interesting to watch as so much more scope for group interaction.
I'm always amazed when there's a film of 500 wildebeest being chased by half a dozen lions who want to eat their babies, the wildebeest don't just think "**** this", turn around, and charge the lions down. Very quickly, there'd be no more lions.
Some kind of evolutionary behavioural stasis I presume. Collectively, the wildebeest can afford a bit of predation.
