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Logs burners are pretty carbon neutral. I get the move to electricity but the grid is probably decades away from being as carbon neutral. I totally get the pollution aspect and rightly it should (and it looks likely) to be limited but in rural areas this is the clearly the wrong decision at the wrong time. Scottish government trying to do the right thing but mangling the detail as usual.
@munkyboy - it isn't about pollution, or outside air quality, it's about indoor air quality and the impact that has on health. A review of research by the Scottish environmental watchdog showed the government that indoor particulate matter levels caused by woodburners is a major risk to health and needed acting on. The problem is the same whether you're in rural or urban areas. So the government have acted on it.
So the government have acted on it.
Whilst allowing fags to remain on sale?
Indoor air quality would be so much better if folk would open their windows more but can't see that happening unless it's warm outside. Damp air is the main indoor pollutant
Carbon monoxide 2m from log stove has never once gone off Uther than testing it
If resilience is an issue, why not spend the 2-3k on a generator?
Matt, one of those gas bottle heaters inside the house..? Er no ta, I’d not want to breath second hand air after that thing has been using it. I’d rather have a stove indoors.
Why? The gas fire will burn cleaner.
Whilst allowing fags to remain on sale?
Well I don't think they have a choice, pretty sure that's a reserved issue. Any more unrelated reasons to kick back on this?
pretty sure that’s a reserved issue.
nope. And I wouldn't call it unrelated - both apparently are about the air we breath in.
Any more unrelated reasons to kick back on this?
But to be fair - for new houses built to new regs it's not too stupid. My immediate neighbours (loose term) is a retired gamekeeper and built a new home on farm land with some sort of crofter's covenant without a stove. First house in his life without one. His wife was deeply sceptical but says she doesn't miss it and is lovely and toasty.
However- someone's going to have to do a better job at keeping developers on the straight and narrow with these new builds. Other people we know in the area moved into a £500K (that's lots up here) brand new 'executive' home with an air source heat pump. £500pm leccy bills revealed some pretty big issues both with the design and construction of the house and heating system. 2 years on they live in a cold house wearing those stupid telly tubby snuggie things with the heating turned right down and still impressively high bills whilst legal wrangles continue. It's putting me off being an early adopter.
Woodburning is not carbon neutral untill you plant more wood than you burn
Woodburning is not carbon neutral untill you plant more wood than you burn
Er, how do you figure that? Or are you talking about commercial crops? It can be depending on how you harvest and process your wood.
@convert when I visited Orkney they didn't seem to have the same fixation that we do with keeping old inefficient stock. I guess when every watt counts it focuses the mind somewhat. Agree developers and builders need to be reigned in, it's not hard to get right.
Whataboutery doesn't help though.
Ah, the power of sweet, sweet Koolaid!
The thought that this is anything to do with the government being concerned about air quality inside homes is hilarious.
Whataboutery toasters? Incense? Candles? Mould? Fags? Vapes? Open fires?
You can't meter a log pile and double the price of it when a war kicks off somewhere.
so effectively pushing heat pumps, which aren’t a great technology just yet
They are, it's just your houses are shit, designed around a cheap and plentiful energy source, rather than insulated properly and fitted with properly specced plumbing.
Sooo…. could you have a wood fuel boiler in a plant room type arrangement?
How **** big is your house?
I've got neighbours with wood gasification equipment in plant rooms. Mostly 200+ sqm houses. Or farmhouses connected to livestock housing.
it isn’t about pollution, or outside air quality, it’s about indoor air quality and the impact that has on health. A review of research by the Scottish environmental watchdog showed the government that indoor particulate matter levels caused by woodburners is a major risk to health and needed acting on. The problem is the same whether you’re in rural or urban areas. So the government have acted on it.
FWIW i monitor particulates and CO in my place. Generally speaking, having the kitchen door open or closed when cooking makes more difference than running/not running the log burner. Except when i light it or open it to add logs. Even opening the back door during pollen season makes more difference than running the fire.
I would suspect that a lot of the issues are down to shit wood, poorly used and installed fires. Or open fires, if they are included in the stats.
FWIW we’re on an estate-wide LPG grid and had an extended outage a couple of years ago when the delivery tankers were blocked by snowdrifts.)
Sounds like friends who run out of oil because they CBA to install a Watchman and/or note how much they've got left...
I have a watchman it's not reliable It always reads that there's a lot more in the tank than there actually is. Delivery drivers check my tank when they're in the neighbourhood anyway. Also I don't use that much oil as I have a woodburner 😁
Sounds like friends who run out of oil because they CBA to install a Watchman and/or note how much they’ve got left…
Oh, the supplier saw that the tank was running low, that's why they sent the tanker. When the tank was eventually replenished it then required a visit to every property to reset the supply before we were allowed to use any gas. Proper pain that was.
Re: rural grid resilience.
Cheap temporary heating source for a few days? £66 plus £60 gas bottle did us 10 days.
£10 a day for a 4kw single heat source is hardly cheap.
Those things produce loads of water when running, not good for your house at all.
Price of firewood has pretty much doubled over the last few years, especially anything remote seasoned/dried.
That wasnt war - that was government meddling again.
If you know where to look you can still get it without it having been through a kiln at a good price . You just wont get it chopped into fire sized pieces for you.
New houses built to current (English) Building Regs don't need wood burners, and I can't see an issue with following suit here, the fabric is good enough to not require a secondary heat source and those that do fit them do so for a 'focal point' or out of luxury, and tell me they rarely (if ever) light them.
But, air source heat pumps are crap, and only just suitable (with a huge cylinder helping them out) for the best new houses, preferably with MVHR. Trying to heat the UK's existing housing stock with ASHP's is a non-starter.
No reason for any house with central heating to need a log burner.
Except with a changing climate, storms are becoming more frequent. Many parts of Scotland have been left with no power for days or weeks in recent years (after Arwen especially). Wood burners are often an essential back up heat source if the power goes down, especially in rural areas.
Ah, the power of sweet, sweet Koolaid!
The thought that this is anything to do with the government being concerned about air quality inside homes is hilarious.
Whataboutery toasters? Incense? Candles? Mould? Fags? Vapes? Open fires?
You can’t meter a log pile and double the price of it when a war kicks off somewhere.
Oh aye, it's definitely a conspiracy. Nothing to do with local air quality.
Just like ULEZs forcing us to buy more, er, um...
But, air source heat pumps are crap, and only just suitable (with a huge cylinder helping them out) for the best new houses, preferably with MVHR. Trying to heat the UK’s existing housing stock with ASHP’s is a non-starter.
This isn't true any more. The latest heat pumps flow at much higher temperatures and can be successfully retrofitted to existing stock.
Just like ULEZs forcing us to buy more, er, um…
....cars.
The dry heat thing is not because of the heat, it's because the stove is pulling moist air out of the house and throwing it up the chimney. This is replaced with air from outside which is often less moist than the air inside. It's an inefficient way to heat space, as you're constantly pulling cold air in, but it does dehumidify things
This isn’t true any more. The latest heat pumps flow at much higher temperatures and can be successfully retrofitted to existing stock.
Source ? The only data I've seen on that highlighted that yes it flows at higher temp but it uses a correspondingly higher amount of energy to do so.
How **** big is your house?
Pretty big, 6 bed farmhouse and 1 bed annex, looking at a hybrid solar, hydro and boiler fed heat store but considering non-oil fuel sources for the boiler bit
" and had an extended outage a couple of years ago when the delivery tankers were blocked by snowdrifts.)"
we had one of them a few years ago, 5 miles from Guildford!
I miss the smoky old stove with the farting dog snoring by it!
And the clingfilm over the window frames...
Source ? The only data I’ve seen on that highlighted that yes it flows at higher temp but it uses a correspondingly higher amount of energy to do so.
Well, obviously the lower the better for efficiency, but current designs can flow at 50 degrees plus, while still hitting reasonable efficiency. That would be enough to keep my solid walled home warm. I manage teams delivering projects retrofitting heat pumps into hard to treat properties, and have previously worked on heat pumps supplying district heating. None of those schemes are running at 35 degrees or whatever supposedly they need to.
ETA: terraces only have two external walls, typically the narrower two, which makes them better candidates for ASHP than was previously assumed.
I have invested in a well insulated PV, Battery storage, and solar thermal powered house to reduce my carbon footprint (and cost!)... but the inverters and pumps need 240v mains. We had no power for nine days following storm Arwen. I don't want a generator big enough to start the heatpump (ie go off grid) that would be used once in a blue moon. Arwen outage with no mains electricity (and the next shorter two multi-day outages ) woodburner was a godsend ... as was VW camper with an eberspaecher and gas cooking. Over nine winter days the house steadily cooled down, and the woodburner in the living room was the only warm space.
Extreme situations apart I love the woodburner! Live a bit out of the way Aberdeenshire though so maybe not typical ...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cojacal/51776746921/in/album-72157718174605907/
I have noticed this week plumes of smoke sround the horizon as heather is burned on an industrial scale on the surrounding hills - the desolation of the eastern cairngorm grouse moors and the pointless 'common sense is it' wanton burning of the carbon store in them is surely a more pressing issue than folk enjoying heating their homes with logs ...
That would be enough to keep my solid walled home warm
Well yes without a doubt if it ran for long enough.
Any actual numbers on efficiency from your large team installing high flow temp heat pumps ?
Indeed - I'd like to know where the likely runnings costs might fall in comparison to say a well run (ie with a smart control system and trvs on all rads) like for like for a typical UK house in percentage terms.
Now old houses with existing stoves, in rural situations,
Should read in "isolated rural situations". A recent article in one of the papers (Guardian I think) pointed to a German study where rural villages had a greater problem with particulate pollution due to the number of woodburners in use.
Article is here https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/mar/22/how-one-german-village-exemplifies-the-cancer-risk-from-wood-burning
Garbage study above.
Open fires or stoves?
Even the picture in the article has a wood stove running with the doors open 😂
Measure the pollution in a field, presumably almost zero. Twice as high in the village, so almost zero doubled.
I wouldn't be too worried about that personally.
Total bunk.
Well yes without a doubt if it ran for long enough.
Any actual numbers on efficiency from your large team installing high flow temp heat pumps ?
Same flow temperature as my condensing gas boiler. Not sure what point you're making.
You'll have to wait for efficiency data, I need it to go through a full heating season. So far, so good.
Extremely well insulated self build house and have a wood burner. Reason is it’s a lovely way to heat a house and is a great focal point. Same reason I’m having duck for dinner rather than beans on toast. It’s just nicer. Sorry.
Total bunk.
Tell me you have a wood-burner without telling me that you have a wood-burner.
"Cheap temporary heating source for a few days? £66 plus £60 gas bottle did us 10 days.
£10 a day for a 4kw single heat source is hardly cheap."
We're talking about the people saying they need wood stoves in case there's some kind of emergency.
Judging by the photos above, the quickest way to improve the air quality in your houses would be limit the methane by banning dogs...
Garbage study above.
Open fires or stoves?
Even the picture in the article has a wood stove running with the doors open😂
Because tabloid journalists are well known for their attention to detail.
Cheap temporary heating source for a few days? £66 plus £60 gas bottle did us 10 days.
£10 a day for a 4kw single heat source is hardly cheap.
You're right, better spend 5 years worth of 10 day stints on a complete wood burner.
I'd say that people buying a new build have pretty much given up on the joys of life. Letting them have a log burner would be a tantalising glimpse of the beauty they could have had. So the ban is a kindness I'd support.
New build =
no flaking lead paint
no asthma inducing fungi
mechanical ventilation with heat recovery
heathy materials not filling the air with carcinogens and alergens
Warm inWinter, cool in Summer
Safe electrics
No gas
Induction hob
Low maintenance
You forgot to mention the fun of the asbestos lottery.
That all said, new build estates are horrible soulless places, absolute epitome of live, laugh, love.
Seems like a romantic wishlist.
Which UK mass builder is ticking more than half of those boxes ?
That's the issue though isn't it? That shouldn't be the case yet here we are. It's not unproven, it's just not as high margin to do it right.
Agreed but doesn't change the notion that in your average mass produced new build house in the UK You shut the front door and your worried it's going to fall down on you.
mechanical ventilation with heat recovery
This seems a very much needed thing. Whilst our house we live in is a shambles and moving it on a pipe dream. But the holiday let we run is finished to very different standards. I put an air quality monitor in there and the results were eye opening. On a dreich day 6 adult guests and a dog would lock themselves away and batten down and the CO2 levels would rise stupendously.
I guess it's not surprising - a modern airtight box rather than our draughty old house with 7 sets of lungs is going to do that. I don't think too many houses in the UK have got them fitted yet, but it needs to be a thing if we are going to build houses to these better standards.