[Closed] scottish sectarianism

I have been up here for about 7 weeks and am amazed about the football tribalism which seems to be rooted in religious differences.

While normally supporting Celtic when it comes to the Old Firm, I do think Lennon has done nothing to calm things down over the past few months. Moreover, he's stirred things up quite a bit. Having said all that, I don't live there so don't really know what it's like day to day.

The sooner both clubs go bankrupt the better

DD - blaming the victim?

DD - blaming the victim?

I'm not. Tbh, Scottish sectarianism bores the shit out of me. A bunch of people who left a country to escape hardship and conflict just insist on carrying it on in their new homeland.

I had sympathy for Lennon before but he has inflamed the situation this week with his pre-match comments. He needs some tutoring on his mind games playing. It's no-one's fault and everyone's fault at the same time.

Wondering if it could ever boil over into a northern ireland situation?

If it was going to happen it would have happened in the 70s/80s when there was much more dicrimination. It certainly used to be the case that in some companies your job prospects were limited if you were Catholic. The somewhat loaded question "where did you go to school" was frequently aksed at interviews. The reverse may also have been true, but I've no knowledge of this. As far as I'm aware it no longer happens.

It isn't a problem all over Scotland. It is generally only an issue in the west, in and around Glasgow (I was brought up in Lanarkshire).

The sooner both clubs go bankrupt the better

Quite right, although I prefer the Bard's line

"A plague on both your houses"

when talking about the old firm.

have no time for the Old Firm nonsense either but I do feel Neil Lennon is getting it a bit tight at the moment!

Its a problem but will only ever be a minor one.

Lennon's an arse, but no one deserves the level of abuse he's been subjected to.

so the general consensus here is 2 sides of the coin... take the blinkers off ffs.

Wondering if it could ever boil over into a northern ireland situation?

Must wondering, usually such problems are kept in check until something happens. Tito's death in yugoslavia, or scottish devolution?

I would hope people are grown up enough not to blame others but that is not the human way.

No problems occurred in Yugoslavia after Tito's death. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia continued to function normally despite all the predictions that it wouldn't, through rotating presidencies. It was only more than 10 years after Tito's death, with the encouragement and interference of EU countries, specially Germany, that the Yugoslavia Federation started to break up. Yugoslavia was always a tinderbox ready to ignite, those who helped and encouraged that to happen, are responsible - not Tito for dying.

Take two tribal groups. Allow them free reign to be as tribal as they like in one of the most pathetically tribal sports. Let this go on for years without really doing anything about it.

What do you expect?

Marching season will be fun this year 🙁

I have been up here for about 7 weeks and am amazed about the football tribalism which seems to be rooted in religious differences.

When you've been here a bit longer it'll become apparent that its actually religious differences rooted in football tribalism. People don't consider themselves catholic or protestant and therefore a celtic or rangers supporter, they consider themselves a celtic or rangers supporter and therefore catholic or protestant. You won't see any of the fans who fill the streets with sectarian songs on a saturday in church on a sunday

Old firm teams aren't blighted by sectarianistm, the clubs are effectively marketed and promoted through sectarianism and the sense it give their fans that they are involved in something more important and life consuming, more political and cultural than watching "22 millionaires ruining a lawn".

CFH - actually there has been serious and significant efforts to reduce sectarianism at football matches.

http://www.kickoutbigotry.org/index.php

CFH - actually there has been serious and significant efforts to reduce sectarianism at football matches.

Lip service if you ask me.

BoardinBob - Member
Marching season will be fun this year

Wtf is all that about? Never understood that carry on!

A serious and significant effort would be for the two clubs to shut the doors and walk away.

Wtf is all that about? Never understood that carry on!

It's about a bunch of pissheads getting together to get drunk and annoy as many people as possible by disrupting their day unecessarily with their out of tune "music" because "it's their right" and coz it's "traditional".

Remove the old firm you still have hibs and aren't hearts also sectarian in origin?

No problems occurred in Yugoslavia after Tito's death.

I was in Yugoslavia in May 1980 shortly after his death. I was actually in a part of the country that is now Croatia and there was a real feeling of loss around the place. Flags were at half mast , pictures of Tito with a black ribbon in the corner were displayed in shop windows. Tito was Croatian but still, the creation of Yugoslavia after WWI was generally seen as a greater Serbia by Croats and Slovenes and communism was arguably the only time that the state showed any kind of pan ethnic solidarity.

On Scottish sectarianism - IMO its far less prevalent that when I was a kid in the 70s and its not accepted in the same way.

Its something that is dying away

It has nothing to do with religion or football, just a bunch of drunken neds looking to get wasted and cause trouble.

Old firm matches were a good reason to avoid the city centre when I was still living up there. Empty beer cans, drunken muppets and pshing in any doorway that was available. No thanks.

I have no interest in sectarianism.

I'm safe in the knowledge that as a Catholic I have God on my side and am going to heaven.

>Wondering if it could ever boil over into a northern ireland situation? and result in more widespread catholic/protestant violence.

No - isolated nut job imo. Generally speaking this is nothing compared to what went on in Glasgow in the 60's & 70's.

Lennon doesn't deserve the abuse but like others before him he'll invariably move, or be moved, and it will be all change again...

maccruiskeen - one of the best synopsis of the problem I've read; although I don't think either church objects to its "inflated numbers" because it gives those institutions more power.

Wtf is all that about? Never understood that carry on!

TJ - serious and significant efforts

Perhaps you think there is enough effort because:

Its a problem but will only ever be a minor one.

It's about a bunch of pissheads getting together to get drunk and annoy as many people as possible by disrupting their day unecessarily with their out of tune "music" because "it's their right" and coz it's "traditional".

Don't get me wrong we(celtic fans) have our issues of that there is no doubt. But the main aggression comes from Rangers triumphiant attitudes and the belief we don't belong. FFS just look at the amount of celtic fans murdered in recent years. look at the uefa categerisation of the rangers as opposed to celtic, look everywhere they go, ffs look at what they did to manchester, look at how we were welcomed and commended in seville with similar numbers..It's very easy to spot the differences if you look beyond the media line of 2 sides of a coin.

In the end up though, it's not half as bad as it once was, it gets reported alot more, the OO is dying on it's arse and with that Rangers are slowly getting better, the last remnants of them are getting a bit of a siege mentality about them though as they know the writing is on the wall. Wounded animal and all that caper.

Take two tribal groups. Allow them free reign to be as tribal as they like in one of the most pathetically tribal sports. Let this go on for years without really doing anything about it.

What do you expect?

Mrmo I think you'll find you're way off the mark with your remarks about Hibs and Hearts

😆 @ Junkyard!

Just to highlight that there are idiots on both sides of the divide

[img] [/img]

seosamh77 - Member

As a DUFC fan,I am interested in you opinion on how singing republican songs in support of another country,and disturbing the minutes silence wherever you go(including Ibrox this year,cough,cough)does anything to suggest that you WANT to belong,as you put it.I remember the Celtic fans regailing us with the refrain of "Argentina" in the early 80's...I don't think they were referring to the quality of the football on offer.Likewise the fields of athenry is a little bit more than a quaint little folk ballad,is it not?
Outsiders like myself who experience the songs both sides of the old firm sing don't really think either of you should be complaining about the other."Your problems" as you call them before explaining exactly what Rangers problems are,are much more real than a media construct designed by a pro Rangers media bias.I think both your team and Rangers fuel each other.Don't get me wrong,if the respective fans of each team did not have each other to hate,it would be something else,scheme,gang etc,so the problem is not going away,although it has lessened (shipyards all closed)

Junkyard 🙂

@otr, I am assuming Hibernian get their name from a catholic root, ie order of hibernian, they play in green and white again suggesting an irish origin.

I have never heard of problems, but I an not assuming that is the case,

Don't get me wrong we(celtic fans) have our issues of that there is no doubt. But the main aggression comes from Rangers triumphiant attitudes and the belief we don't belong. FFS just look at the amount of celtic fans murdered in recent years. look at the uefa categerisation of the rangers as opposed to celtic, look everywhere they go, ffs look at what they did to manchester, look at how we were welcomed and commended in seville with similar numbers..It's very easy to spot the differences if you look beyond the media line of 2 sides of a coin.

I say again, a plague on both your houses. Stop being such an apologist for bigotry, it's one of the reasons why I hate going back to my parents and I'm glad that I no longer live in that part of Scotland.

Hearts/Hibs do have a sectarian element although it is nowhere near as prevelant as Celtic/Rangers.

I don't understand it...to me it's like watching Vin Diesel and Telly Savalas fighting over a comb.

Its nothing to do with sectarianism. Its to do with being morons. Pure and simple

Remember Rangers little Jaunt down to Manchester a couple of seasons ago by any chance? I do. I had the pleasure to witness it first hand. What an exemplary display of behavior that was from our northern guests. No sectarian problem there, was there? No. Just, quite frankly, behaving like animals. literally.

Streets awash with piss and vomit. And the bodies of those too pissed to actually stand up. Running street battles with the police. The whole place was trashed.

Can you imagine the supporters of any other team other than those resident in Glasgow behaving like that?

They're animals. Its that simple

I say again, a plague on both your houses. Stop being such an apologist for bigotry, it's one of the reasons why I hate going back to my parents and I'm glad that I no longer live in that part of Scotland.

Hearts/Hibs do have a sectarian element although it is nowhere near as prevelant as Celtic/Rangers.

Remember Rangers little Jaunt down to Manchester a couple of seasons ago by any chance?

I remember the clown in the Rangers shirt at 7:30 am the day after who was standing on the M60 waving his blue scarf at swerving motorists. 😯

I remember the racist chants of those lovely Rangers fans walking down Market Street.

The EDL would have been proud.

Hmmm that's quite the straw man argument you've got going on there, except that I did acknowedge the fact there has been discrimination against Catholics in the past. I really don't need any lectures on the bigotry that existed in the West of Scotland in the 80s & 90s as it effectively poisoned my childhood. The whole thing is perpetuated in no small way by both memebers of the old firm because they do little to stop it and arguments about how the "other side is worse than we are" are quite frankly pathetic. Don't worry though, I have equal contempt for both sides of the Old Firm.

I am not saying that they are the sole cause of the problems that face that part of Scotland (the marching bands and segragated schools certainly play their part too) but they have the power and influence to do much more about it but choose not to.

segragated schools

OK - give me peace, conversation ended, in no other country in the world are catholic schools the issue they still seem to be for some in Scotland. you've made you position clear, talk about ropey ffs. wake yourself up.

Because you think you are right doesn't make it so.

It's where you are looking from.

On schools, I am by heritage an irish catholic and went to a catholic school, it means nothing, does anyone care if you went to a CoE school? No.

Segregation at school may not help, it certainly isn't the problem.

Given that you opinion is that

The Orange Order like Rangers are a reaction to the irish influx to Glasgow in the 18/1900's that's where the problem lies, there's a section of scottish society that just wont accept us..To view it as any else is a lie.

Your seige mentality notwithstanding, what would your solution be to get over this problem and how does keeping one section of the community isolated from the other help in changing peoples attitudes?

Oh and I [i]think[/i] that segregated schools in Northern Ireland are seen as part of the problem too.

wake yourself up

Your seige mentality notwithstanding, what would your solution be to get over this problem and how does keeping one section of the community isolated from the other help in changing peoples attitudes?

Oh and I think that segregated schools in Northern Ireland are seen as part of the problem too.

Time will solve the issue and is solving it, dismissing the history of it all and manufacturing a problem with catholic schools is nuts and slows down that progress. 150 years of open hostility to the Irish catholic community in scotland has basically came to an end, what we are seeing at the moment is the last throws of that hostility. I'm fairly positive for the future, actually i'm fairly positive about the present, it's not half as bad as the media say..

Well France and Spain are essentially Catholic countries so it shouldn't be a surprise that there is little bigotry in countries where there is a single dominant religion (I'm surprised you didn't add the Vatican to that list to be honest). The state schools in the USA are prohibited by law from being religious so it is only a small minority of schools that are religious so again not comperable to the situation in Scotland.

I have never said that segregation of schools was the cause of the problems I said that it contributes to perpetuation the situation. As for giving it time, it's been a over a hundred years and it's still going on. How much more time will it take before we all actually start to actively sort the whole sorry mess out?

I thought all State schools in France were secular?

How much more time will it take before we all actually start to actively sort the whole sorry mess out?

As for schools, i was picking countries names out of my arse, i wasn't being scientific about it...point was that it's an issue that's unique to scotland and the six counties..So perhaps it's an issue with the attitudes to the schools rather than the schools themselves. As someone who attend catholic schools, i was not segregated in any way from the rest of scottish society.

Well France and Spain are essentially Catholic countries so it shouldn't be a surprise that there is little bigotry in countries where there is a single dominant religion

You've obviously not travelled to Southern France and encountered Catholic French attitudes towards Muslim Arabs.

The french arab issue is not only about religion, it is a legacy of the french empire. So be careful not to mix up the problems.

And the Catholic/Protestant issues of Northern Ireland and S/W Scotland aren't in part due to centuries old imperialism?

On Scottish sectarianism - IMO its far less prevalent that when I was a kid in the 70s and its not accepted in the same way.

I agree - when I was growing up in Glasgow, my Gran didn't like me having Catholic friends - I don't think that it's that bad now.

In anycase, I eventually pushed the boundaries even further & married a Sassenach 😯

"As someone who attended Catholic schools I was not segregated in anyway from the rest of society"??

Apart from when you were at school?

No non-catholic teachers allowed, etc.?

The person who raised the point about schools was clearly not saying it was the cause of scottish sectarianism - I feel you have deliberately misinterpreted his point in order to fuel your victim complex.

I feel you have deliberately misinterpreted his point in order to fuel your victim complex

Can we leave the scousers out of this please 😉

Seosamh77,

I must dispute with you that segregated schools are not part of the problem. I strongly believe they are part (but not all) of the problem on both sides.

Segregated schools 'teach' (not necessarily through instruction but through practice) children that "they" are different. It also means that essentially every single person in many west of Scotland schools comes from the same religious background, cultural history and supports the same football team. Those three things become blended together, and the fact the "other side" are doing the same simply reinforces the us against them mentality. Diversity is the key to understanding and we are selecting it out.

The curriculum is essentially identical in both schools, there is less religious instruction than there used to be at both schools and so other than historical reasons - why do we continue to segregate at all? To my mind this deserves significant political debate - but all the parties seem to run scared of upsetting the applecart.

At to why catholic schools might "work" in other countries I think you are asking the wrong question. From a simple educational perspective catholic schools do work in Scotland. However if you are not catholic in scotland then you automatically go to a "non-denominational school". Now contrary to popular believe non-denominational schools are effectively "church of scotland schools". So whilst I find it a rather odd notion that you would select your childs school on the basis of religious belief, I find it even more bizzare that there is an assumption of religion across the board, with defacto involvement in religious instruction. The problem is not per se that Catholic schools create the problem - but that a schooling system still based around the churches which formed them in the late 1800s is outdated for a modern society. Catholicism needs to play its part in reforming the schooling system as well as recognising that where catholic education is an option it probably can not be 100% state funded! (The same logic applies to all religions and denominations, and scotland's 4 other faith schools need to do the same).

The french arab issue is not only about religion, it is a legacy of the french empire. So be careful not to mix up the problems.

Sectarianism in Ireland and Scotland has no connection to empire ?

Surely some mistake ?

In my opinion it is clear to the majority of people I know that the problem is two-sided up here.

To deny it is your entitlement but says more about you than the folks on this thread who are prepared to engage in reasoned debate about the situation.

As someone who attend catholic schools, i was not segregated in any way from the rest of scottish society.

Excellent post Poly

You were - by definition! (Did you have many Jews, Muslims, or even Christians from other denominations in your class?). However equally importantly as someone who attended a non-denominational school - I missed out on the opportunity to socialise and integrate with you and your classmates.

The person who raised the point about schools was clearly not saying it was the cause of scottish sectarianism - I feel you have deliberately misinterpreted his point in order to fuel your victim complex.

P.S. i have acquaintances who are convinced that the whole of the Scottish 'Establishment' is against them and their religion and football team.

Only problem is, one is a Celtic supporting Catholic. The other is a Rangers supporting Protestant. So who is right?

Interestingly, I have never actually heard either of them mention going to church 😀

It is quite disconcerting entering into debate with them - they are what I would call pretty intelligent people with very well paid jobs and positions of responsibility yet are totally blinkered.

Absolute victim mentality.

I work with a lad who can argue 'we' (Celtic) aren't as bad as 'them' (Rangers) because it is proven that after an Old Firm derby loss for Rangers there are more reported cases of domestic abuse than when Celtic lose. Ok, so not as many of 'our' fans beat our wives as 'theirs' do so we are the moral guardians of the world!

He also reckons Lennon is subjected to the abuse because he is an Irish Catholic. Nah, I reckon it's because he is a knob. Can't ever remember Martin O'Neill or a devout catholic like Tommy Burns getting stick all over the country. Seem to remember there being a large outpouring of grief from both sides of the 'divide' when Tommy Burns died actually.

Goes to show the majority of people are decent and that the problem is perpetuated by the knucklegraggers on boths sides.

poly,

I've no problem with having a reasoned political debate about secular or non secular eduation(I'd probably err on the side of non secular myself), I don't believe that's the motivation for the 'debate' here in scotland at this moment in though.

You can only start to eliminate sectarianism by starting with the schools.

Mixed schools are the way forward for Northern Ireland and Glasgow (and other parts of Western Scotland). You can forget about changing the entrenched attitudes of the present generation - I think we can see from this thread that they're not changing any time soon. We've got to start with kids.

In NI, behind all the peace process and lip service shenanigans, you basically have two communities that just refuse to like one another that much. I can only assume this is the same in Glasgow. Once you separate children and teach them that they are different in some way - there is almost no hope of changing that attitude - ever.

At the same time, I despair at the thought of what some of the kids would hear from their parents when they get home anyway...but eventually, protestant kids will invite catholic kids to their birthday parties, and parents will learn to live with it. Small steps and all that. A sea change in attitude is very unlikely.

His point is probably not an 'issue' for a great many. It's not an issue for me - I have more important things in life to worry about - however I have an opinion on it and it is quite clearly a factor in the sectarian divide up here as poly put across a lot more eloquently than me.

To deny any reasoned debate and to immediately post more extreme examples of the 'against' side of the discussion to try and make out that that particular view is representative of Scotland in general is dishonest and immature.

seosamh77 - it is an issue up here (I can introduce you to a couple of catholics who send their children to catholic school but who actually would prefer the system didn't exist!).

One of the reasons for potential issues, is the increasing trend for parents to select the best school (rather than the local school) for their children. If the best school educationally is a catholic school then you can expect legal challenges from non-catholic pupils who get refused admission on the grounds of their religion. Similarly with teaching jobs under fierce competition you can expect discrimination cases from teachers who feel they've not got a position because of their religion. I look forward to your explanation of how catholic education is not only good for Scotland, but also how discrimination against pupils or teachers if justified? Something more that "Catholic school didn't do me any harm" and "everyone has been out to get us since my ancestors arrived", might make for an interesting debate.

there were plenty of non-catholic kids in my Catholic school, in deepest darkest lanarkshire no less.
I honestly dont believe catholic schools fuel the problem, but parental teachings/guidence most certainly do.

When you leave school do you only hang about with people of your "type" at uni, college, work, well no (in most cases). If youre brought up to be a bampot, you probably will be a good example of a bampot.

Well France and Spain are essentially Catholic countries so it shouldn't be a surprise that there is little bigotry in countries where there is a single dominant religion

Spanish schools are basically secular, too - there's an optional course on Catholic faith, but it's just that: optional. The results don't count to any final grade.

If you want "us and them" here, head down to Almeria / El Ejido, there have been some pretty serious problems between Spanish locals and Moroccan immigrants.

You've obviously not travelled to Southern France and encountered Catholic French attitudes towards Muslim Arabs.

No you are quite right I haven't and it's not an issue that I was aware of. It does however demonstrate the point that when you have two cultures coliding then there are bound to be issues and bigotry and I do not believe that segregating the communities helps in the long run.

As someone who attend catholic schools, i was not segregated in any way from the rest of scottish society

Well since we're getting all anecdotal I too attended Catholic schools and until I went to secondary school all my friends were exclusively catholic and even after that most still were. There isn't (or at least wasn't) really much a Jewish community in Lanarkshire so no chance of meeting anyone there but the Asian community, small as it was, almost universally attended the local non denominational schools so again I missed out on the chance to mingle with these communities as I grew up.

I'd never use language like "apartheid education" as it is loaded with emotion however I do think that in the long run an end to segregation would be a good idea so that's where I'd start. The education in Catholocism could be met in Sunday School as it is in other parts of Scotland.

Here we go again: "Catholic schools are the cause of bigotry in Scotland".

Well, 2 things:
1. faith schools don't seem to have that effect south of the border.
2. What fosters tolerance?

Here's an imaginary scenario for you:

Imagine we lived in a world where we all had the same hair-colour, eye colour, were of similar height, enjoyed the same music, same books, and agreed on our politics. In short, the differences between us were so scant that they were practically non-existent. In this world, there would be no need for any kind of tolerance, for tolerance only exists where it is required.

I dont't live in this world, and know that you don't either. I can see children growing up and making choices in opposition to their parents wishes, just because they want to be different. Political parties with opposing views, borne out of their traditions, their convictions and a desire to be in power. Schisms in religious groups over articles of faith and dogma. And so on.

Humans by their nature will always, either because of environmental change, or competition for food, or desire for a mate, or even a desire for immortality, wilfully find ways to be different, to stand apart and be noticed, to advance, change, survive, in whatever way they can. Its part of what got us down from the trees in the first place. Accepting this means accepting the need for tolerance, born out of recognising differences in others, the differences in ourselves, and finding a way to live with the difference.

Are faith schools divisive? I would say probably the opposite- after all, they reflect the society we all live in and the differences within it, and homogenising these schools would not lead to greater tolerance- just the opposite in fact. What happens when these children go out into the wide world and find we're not all the same?
How do they learn to cope when all they've known is the same?

We need instead to flex the muscle of tolerance, otherwise it will grow flaccid and atrophy. Accept our differences instead of attempting what amounts to cultural fascism.

Most of it is football related rather than religion...actually if football or religion didnt exist then the tribalism and neddery would still be there, they'd just have some other 'cause' to rally around. The problem around the football seems worse than it is because of the goldfish bowl, if you look at the amount of trouble that happens in English football then arguably that is just as bad, but doesn't get anything like the media attention and focus.

Never quite understood why the songs old firm fans sing are considered so offensive, but the songs sung by others about their rivals, or songs about weegies, or players sexual orientation or Scotland fans singing stand up if you hate england are just dismissed bit of banter and not offensive at all. It is a bit of a double standard IMO.

Here we go again: "Catholic schools are the cause of bigotry in Scotland".

Err who said that? I certainly didn't.

poly - Member

I'd suggest it is in Scotland's top 5 problems, and is showing no signs of budging - despite society generally becoming more tolerant.

It is disappearing compared to how it used to be. There is no doubt about that. I grew up in Glasgow in the 70s and saw it.
As for being in the top 5 Scottish problems? No where near. It affects a small section of society in a small area of the country. compared to heroin, alcohol, unemployment, physical ill health, mental ill health, poverty, bad diet etc etc etc its a very minor issue.

However work is on going to reduce it - from the banning of sectarian activity and songs to the education of the youth.

non-catholic pupils who get refused admission

It's got absolutely nothing to do with religion. It's neds jumping on a bandwagon, too thick to think for themselves. Rangers and Celtic fans are as bad as each other, it won't change and you'll sti hear Celtic fans singing about the ira and rangers fans with their red hand gang.

Lennon winds people up, he always has and always will. People just don't like him and I can understand why. What's going on with him just now is just crazy but he's not doing anything to help the situation.

As for being in the top 5 Scottish problems? No where near. It affects a small section of society in a small area of the country. compared to heroin, alcohol, unemployment, physical ill health, mental ill health, poverty, bad diet etc etc etc its a very minor issue.