[Closed] scottish sectarianism

On schools, I am by heritage an irish catholic and went to a catholic school, it means nothing, does anyone care if you went to a CoE school? No.

Segregation at school may not help, it certainly isn't the problem.

Given that you opinion is that

The Orange Order like Rangers are a reaction to the irish influx to Glasgow in the 18/1900's that's where the problem lies, there's a section of scottish society that just wont accept us..To view it as any else is a lie.

Your seige mentality notwithstanding, what would your solution be to get over this problem and how does keeping one section of the community isolated from the other help in changing peoples attitudes?

Oh and I [i]think[/i] that segregated schools in Northern Ireland are seen as part of the problem too.

wake yourself up

Your seige mentality notwithstanding, what would your solution be to get over this problem and how does keeping one section of the community isolated from the other help in changing peoples attitudes?

Oh and I think that segregated schools in Northern Ireland are seen as part of the problem too.

Time will solve the issue and is solving it, dismissing the history of it all and manufacturing a problem with catholic schools is nuts and slows down that progress. 150 years of open hostility to the Irish catholic community in scotland has basically came to an end, what we are seeing at the moment is the last throws of that hostility. I'm fairly positive for the future, actually i'm fairly positive about the present, it's not half as bad as the media say..

Well France and Spain are essentially Catholic countries so it shouldn't be a surprise that there is little bigotry in countries where there is a single dominant religion (I'm surprised you didn't add the Vatican to that list to be honest). The state schools in the USA are prohibited by law from being religious so it is only a small minority of schools that are religious so again not comperable to the situation in Scotland.

I have never said that segregation of schools was the cause of the problems I said that it contributes to perpetuation the situation. As for giving it time, it's been a over a hundred years and it's still going on. How much more time will it take before we all actually start to actively sort the whole sorry mess out?

I thought all State schools in France were secular?

How much more time will it take before we all actually start to actively sort the whole sorry mess out?

As for schools, i was picking countries names out of my arse, i wasn't being scientific about it...point was that it's an issue that's unique to scotland and the six counties..So perhaps it's an issue with the attitudes to the schools rather than the schools themselves. As someone who attend catholic schools, i was not segregated in any way from the rest of scottish society.

Well France and Spain are essentially Catholic countries so it shouldn't be a surprise that there is little bigotry in countries where there is a single dominant religion

You've obviously not travelled to Southern France and encountered Catholic French attitudes towards Muslim Arabs.

The french arab issue is not only about religion, it is a legacy of the french empire. So be careful not to mix up the problems.

And the Catholic/Protestant issues of Northern Ireland and S/W Scotland aren't in part due to centuries old imperialism?

On Scottish sectarianism - IMO its far less prevalent that when I was a kid in the 70s and its not accepted in the same way.

I agree - when I was growing up in Glasgow, my Gran didn't like me having Catholic friends - I don't think that it's that bad now.

In anycase, I eventually pushed the boundaries even further & married a Sassenach 😯

"As someone who attended Catholic schools I was not segregated in anyway from the rest of society"??

Apart from when you were at school?

No non-catholic teachers allowed, etc.?

The person who raised the point about schools was clearly not saying it was the cause of scottish sectarianism - I feel you have deliberately misinterpreted his point in order to fuel your victim complex.

I feel you have deliberately misinterpreted his point in order to fuel your victim complex

Can we leave the scousers out of this please 😉

Seosamh77,

I must dispute with you that segregated schools are not part of the problem. I strongly believe they are part (but not all) of the problem on both sides.

Segregated schools 'teach' (not necessarily through instruction but through practice) children that "they" are different. It also means that essentially every single person in many west of Scotland schools comes from the same religious background, cultural history and supports the same football team. Those three things become blended together, and the fact the "other side" are doing the same simply reinforces the us against them mentality. Diversity is the key to understanding and we are selecting it out.

The curriculum is essentially identical in both schools, there is less religious instruction than there used to be at both schools and so other than historical reasons - why do we continue to segregate at all? To my mind this deserves significant political debate - but all the parties seem to run scared of upsetting the applecart.

At to why catholic schools might "work" in other countries I think you are asking the wrong question. From a simple educational perspective catholic schools do work in Scotland. However if you are not catholic in scotland then you automatically go to a "non-denominational school". Now contrary to popular believe non-denominational schools are effectively "church of scotland schools". So whilst I find it a rather odd notion that you would select your childs school on the basis of religious belief, I find it even more bizzare that there is an assumption of religion across the board, with defacto involvement in religious instruction. The problem is not per se that Catholic schools create the problem - but that a schooling system still based around the churches which formed them in the late 1800s is outdated for a modern society. Catholicism needs to play its part in reforming the schooling system as well as recognising that where catholic education is an option it probably can not be 100% state funded! (The same logic applies to all religions and denominations, and scotland's 4 other faith schools need to do the same).

The french arab issue is not only about religion, it is a legacy of the french empire. So be careful not to mix up the problems.

Sectarianism in Ireland and Scotland has no connection to empire ?

Surely some mistake ?

In my opinion it is clear to the majority of people I know that the problem is two-sided up here.

To deny it is your entitlement but says more about you than the folks on this thread who are prepared to engage in reasoned debate about the situation.

As someone who attend catholic schools, i was not segregated in any way from the rest of scottish society.

Excellent post Poly

You were - by definition! (Did you have many Jews, Muslims, or even Christians from other denominations in your class?). However equally importantly as someone who attended a non-denominational school - I missed out on the opportunity to socialise and integrate with you and your classmates.

The person who raised the point about schools was clearly not saying it was the cause of scottish sectarianism - I feel you have deliberately misinterpreted his point in order to fuel your victim complex.

P.S. i have acquaintances who are convinced that the whole of the Scottish 'Establishment' is against them and their religion and football team.

Only problem is, one is a Celtic supporting Catholic. The other is a Rangers supporting Protestant. So who is right?

Interestingly, I have never actually heard either of them mention going to church 😀

It is quite disconcerting entering into debate with them - they are what I would call pretty intelligent people with very well paid jobs and positions of responsibility yet are totally blinkered.

Absolute victim mentality.

I work with a lad who can argue 'we' (Celtic) aren't as bad as 'them' (Rangers) because it is proven that after an Old Firm derby loss for Rangers there are more reported cases of domestic abuse than when Celtic lose. Ok, so not as many of 'our' fans beat our wives as 'theirs' do so we are the moral guardians of the world!

He also reckons Lennon is subjected to the abuse because he is an Irish Catholic. Nah, I reckon it's because he is a knob. Can't ever remember Martin O'Neill or a devout catholic like Tommy Burns getting stick all over the country. Seem to remember there being a large outpouring of grief from both sides of the 'divide' when Tommy Burns died actually.

Goes to show the majority of people are decent and that the problem is perpetuated by the knucklegraggers on boths sides.

poly,

I've no problem with having a reasoned political debate about secular or non secular eduation(I'd probably err on the side of non secular myself), I don't believe that's the motivation for the 'debate' here in scotland at this moment in though.

You can only start to eliminate sectarianism by starting with the schools.

Mixed schools are the way forward for Northern Ireland and Glasgow (and other parts of Western Scotland). You can forget about changing the entrenched attitudes of the present generation - I think we can see from this thread that they're not changing any time soon. We've got to start with kids.

In NI, behind all the peace process and lip service shenanigans, you basically have two communities that just refuse to like one another that much. I can only assume this is the same in Glasgow. Once you separate children and teach them that they are different in some way - there is almost no hope of changing that attitude - ever.

At the same time, I despair at the thought of what some of the kids would hear from their parents when they get home anyway...but eventually, protestant kids will invite catholic kids to their birthday parties, and parents will learn to live with it. Small steps and all that. A sea change in attitude is very unlikely.

His point is probably not an 'issue' for a great many. It's not an issue for me - I have more important things in life to worry about - however I have an opinion on it and it is quite clearly a factor in the sectarian divide up here as poly put across a lot more eloquently than me.

To deny any reasoned debate and to immediately post more extreme examples of the 'against' side of the discussion to try and make out that that particular view is representative of Scotland in general is dishonest and immature.

seosamh77 - it is an issue up here (I can introduce you to a couple of catholics who send their children to catholic school but who actually would prefer the system didn't exist!).

One of the reasons for potential issues, is the increasing trend for parents to select the best school (rather than the local school) for their children. If the best school educationally is a catholic school then you can expect legal challenges from non-catholic pupils who get refused admission on the grounds of their religion. Similarly with teaching jobs under fierce competition you can expect discrimination cases from teachers who feel they've not got a position because of their religion. I look forward to your explanation of how catholic education is not only good for Scotland, but also how discrimination against pupils or teachers if justified? Something more that "Catholic school didn't do me any harm" and "everyone has been out to get us since my ancestors arrived", might make for an interesting debate.

there were plenty of non-catholic kids in my Catholic school, in deepest darkest lanarkshire no less.
I honestly dont believe catholic schools fuel the problem, but parental teachings/guidence most certainly do.

When you leave school do you only hang about with people of your "type" at uni, college, work, well no (in most cases). If youre brought up to be a bampot, you probably will be a good example of a bampot.

Well France and Spain are essentially Catholic countries so it shouldn't be a surprise that there is little bigotry in countries where there is a single dominant religion

Spanish schools are basically secular, too - there's an optional course on Catholic faith, but it's just that: optional. The results don't count to any final grade.

If you want "us and them" here, head down to Almeria / El Ejido, there have been some pretty serious problems between Spanish locals and Moroccan immigrants.

You've obviously not travelled to Southern France and encountered Catholic French attitudes towards Muslim Arabs.

No you are quite right I haven't and it's not an issue that I was aware of. It does however demonstrate the point that when you have two cultures coliding then there are bound to be issues and bigotry and I do not believe that segregating the communities helps in the long run.

As someone who attend catholic schools, i was not segregated in any way from the rest of scottish society

Well since we're getting all anecdotal I too attended Catholic schools and until I went to secondary school all my friends were exclusively catholic and even after that most still were. There isn't (or at least wasn't) really much a Jewish community in Lanarkshire so no chance of meeting anyone there but the Asian community, small as it was, almost universally attended the local non denominational schools so again I missed out on the chance to mingle with these communities as I grew up.

I'd never use language like "apartheid education" as it is loaded with emotion however I do think that in the long run an end to segregation would be a good idea so that's where I'd start. The education in Catholocism could be met in Sunday School as it is in other parts of Scotland.

Here we go again: "Catholic schools are the cause of bigotry in Scotland".

Well, 2 things:
1. faith schools don't seem to have that effect south of the border.
2. What fosters tolerance?

Here's an imaginary scenario for you:

Imagine we lived in a world where we all had the same hair-colour, eye colour, were of similar height, enjoyed the same music, same books, and agreed on our politics. In short, the differences between us were so scant that they were practically non-existent. In this world, there would be no need for any kind of tolerance, for tolerance only exists where it is required.

I dont't live in this world, and know that you don't either. I can see children growing up and making choices in opposition to their parents wishes, just because they want to be different. Political parties with opposing views, borne out of their traditions, their convictions and a desire to be in power. Schisms in religious groups over articles of faith and dogma. And so on.

Humans by their nature will always, either because of environmental change, or competition for food, or desire for a mate, or even a desire for immortality, wilfully find ways to be different, to stand apart and be noticed, to advance, change, survive, in whatever way they can. Its part of what got us down from the trees in the first place. Accepting this means accepting the need for tolerance, born out of recognising differences in others, the differences in ourselves, and finding a way to live with the difference.

Are faith schools divisive? I would say probably the opposite- after all, they reflect the society we all live in and the differences within it, and homogenising these schools would not lead to greater tolerance- just the opposite in fact. What happens when these children go out into the wide world and find we're not all the same?
How do they learn to cope when all they've known is the same?

We need instead to flex the muscle of tolerance, otherwise it will grow flaccid and atrophy. Accept our differences instead of attempting what amounts to cultural fascism.

Most of it is football related rather than religion...actually if football or religion didnt exist then the tribalism and neddery would still be there, they'd just have some other 'cause' to rally around. The problem around the football seems worse than it is because of the goldfish bowl, if you look at the amount of trouble that happens in English football then arguably that is just as bad, but doesn't get anything like the media attention and focus.

Never quite understood why the songs old firm fans sing are considered so offensive, but the songs sung by others about their rivals, or songs about weegies, or players sexual orientation or Scotland fans singing stand up if you hate england are just dismissed bit of banter and not offensive at all. It is a bit of a double standard IMO.

Here we go again: "Catholic schools are the cause of bigotry in Scotland".

Err who said that? I certainly didn't.

poly - Member

I'd suggest it is in Scotland's top 5 problems, and is showing no signs of budging - despite society generally becoming more tolerant.

It is disappearing compared to how it used to be. There is no doubt about that. I grew up in Glasgow in the 70s and saw it.
As for being in the top 5 Scottish problems? No where near. It affects a small section of society in a small area of the country. compared to heroin, alcohol, unemployment, physical ill health, mental ill health, poverty, bad diet etc etc etc its a very minor issue.

However work is on going to reduce it - from the banning of sectarian activity and songs to the education of the youth.

non-catholic pupils who get refused admission

It's got absolutely nothing to do with religion. It's neds jumping on a bandwagon, too thick to think for themselves. Rangers and Celtic fans are as bad as each other, it won't change and you'll sti hear Celtic fans singing about the ira and rangers fans with their red hand gang.

Lennon winds people up, he always has and always will. People just don't like him and I can understand why. What's going on with him just now is just crazy but he's not doing anything to help the situation.

As for being in the top 5 Scottish problems? No where near. It affects a small section of society in a small area of the country. compared to heroin, alcohol, unemployment, physical ill health, mental ill health, poverty, bad diet etc etc etc its a very minor issue.

spot on Gary M!

I do think its a tad sad you never see a Scotland flag at an old firm game. Either the Irish flag or the Union Flag .

However work is on going to reduce it - from the banning of sectarian activity and songs to the education of the youth.

If only there was a way to increase this education of the youth...

As for schooling question. First and foremost i'd prefer state funded schooling tosecular. It doesn't matter what religion it is, but religion should kept as far away from the classroom as possible, unless that classroom be religious education - and that should be for comparative religious education not some reverend, priest or iman preaching.

In Scotland there does seem to be support for all schools to be non denominational (80% of the population at large and 59% amongst catholics). But it is still seen a political hot potato and the only party in the Scottish parliament who would supports the change is the Greens.

The shared campus schools are seen the compromise 'solution'- 2 different schools sharing the one building and classrooms. But the non-denominational pupils and teachers and catholic pupils and teachers have seperate entrances, seperate toilets and seperate dining halls. Maybe ok for South Africa in the 1980s or Alabama in the 1960s but pretty poor show in these supposedly more enlightened times.

that doesn't happen, you're making stuff up, catholic schools work on catchment area the same as non dom, if you live in the catchment area you can get in..

No your talking bollocks. Catchment area is only one of the criteria used in pupil placement. For catholic schools, religion is another one! If the school is at capacity (which 'very good' and 'popular' schools are likely to be) then this becomes an issue. Indeed it is such that if you live across the road from a catholic school but aren't catholic they will bus you 2 miles to your school whilst bussing a catholic pupil into the school across the road from you. If the school has plenty of space its a non issue - but of course the best schools don't stay empty for long! Here's a story google threw up: http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/catholic-school-system-taken-to-court-parents-challenge-right-to-deny-son-a-place-1.192355 but I believe you'll find others if you look hard enough...

It is disappearing compared to how it used to be. There is no doubt about that. I grew up in Glasgow in the 70s and saw it.

As for being in the top 5 Scottish problems? No where near. It affects a small section of society in a small area of the country. compared to heroin, alcohol, unemployment, physical ill health, mental ill health, poverty, bad diet etc etc etc its a very minor issue.

- Lack of aspiration
- Poverty
- Poor health
- Sectarianism [I might be lumping knife and gang culture in there but I think they are linked in my experience]
- Dependence/entitlement culture

sounds more like a catchment area issue to me..number 37 on the waiting list. tbh the opposite would probably be true, say the kid went to catholic primary and then wants to go to the non denom school that is bursting at the seems, i'd think they'd get put on a waiting list while the catchment schools are given priority, are they discriminated, imo no. what was the outcome of the case?

I don't remember sectarianism being a problem in Glasgow in the 70's & 80's. I grew up in a council estate, went to a catholic school and I don't remember ant violence around religion. Yes the neds were shouting about their various terrorist groups and bobby sands was the heronof the day but it was just something for neds go belong too. If it's wasn't a catholic/protestant divide it would be something else.

In my opinion there are two sorts of "sectarianism" in Scotland; there's the obvious stuff like last night, or the city centre fights between the neds. That's not really sectarianism, that's just an outlet for the extremely poor, unhealthy, and forgotten lowest-class population of West/Central Scotland to take out their agression, frustration and stupidity on.

To me, of more concern is the just-under-the-surface vein that still runs through a large proportion of the community. Like someone above said, I have intelligent, level-headed friends who are extremely biggoted on this issue, and can't seem to move beyond it. Similarly I have witnessed completely inappropriate comments at work about the recruitment/redundancy/management of colleagues as a result of them being "Tims". This is passed off at un-PC humour when challenged, but with a minority the undercurrent is always there.

Regarding Lennon; he rubs people up the wrong way with his aggressive and confrontational attitude. I'm not sure retiring five years early from playing for his national side, GBH, bullets-in-the-post, parcel bombs, death threats, or 24hour security and panic buttons in his home where he lives with his children are reasonable sanctions for this.

Jeebus

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13378140