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In Dumfries & Galloway. I will definitely vote - need for a change is too great not to. Just want the local Alaister Jack replacement Tory out, but not sure whether SNP or Labour more effective. Will probs go Labour as any small support for the change in Westminster needed, but worried Lab / SNP will split & let Tories in.
Others say approximately one fifth of those who say they will vote Labour in a Westminster election support independence it’s going to be difficult to appeal to both
Do they have to?
Labour gave us a parliament, they could take Indy votes with proper, equal, federalisation. Appeals to Unionists, nationalists and the generally spiteful.
I guess the problem might be Starmers only scottish MP is Murray - a rightwinger who prefers to see tories elected than SNP . the architect of the tory / labour pact
Even the SNP have tacitly admitted that independence is dead in the water.
There is a world of difference between saying "now is not the moment" and "this is not the path for us".
I might be able to live with labour being agnostic on the subject...
Tj - I’m really surprised at you being not bothered to vote. I had assumed you would be in the “if you don’t vote - you can’t complain” camp.
Labour may have a difficult horse to ride, some of their vote has recently been of the orange and unionist variety. Others say approximately one fifth of those who say they will vote Labour in a Westminster election support independence it’s going to be difficult to appeal to both
gordon - I don’t think it’s that hard to be a little more moderate and reconciliatory: “agree there’s a constitutional issue (the West Lothian question, Tam Dayell was a Labour MP) and propose a Constitutional Convention to see how it can be resolved - the aim to the unionist to put the Indy question to bed properly - it might also involve reviewing the Barnet formula or at least defining how it could be reviewed - winning English interest in discussing the issue; the aim for the Indy supporters to show you are listening and can provide a route to a vote if at some future point it’s got the momentum. The only fear for doing this is tories stealing your votes by out Unionisting you - if ever there was a time you could feel safe that classic Scots Labour voters were not going to vote Blue it was surely now - but they need to win back the SNP voters or risk having to work with them anyway if their landslide is not as big as they hope. But I think there’s more to appealing to Scottish voters than Indy. If you want to convince Scots that Westminster elections matter you need to be able to talk about things that aren’t just devolved issues that matter in Scotland. When you fall into that trap it gives the SNP a free pass to say “see they are focussed on England”.
Poly - My constituency will only be labour or SNP - so makes no real difference to the westminster government. tories have no chance.
Given that I dislike both candidates for frankly poor behaviour its hard to vote for either. Also at a national level I cannot vote for a brexiteer party which is what labour has become but the SNP MP lied to my face. makes it tricky
maybe green?
I see your dilemma. In similar shoes in the past I’ve voted for either the independent (and greens are probably in that class for WM) to try and help them get their deposit back as I think it’s important that no hope candidates do stand. OR for the individual I think would most likely be a descent local MP and represent my personal issue on whatever crisis I might encounter.
whilst policy matters a lot to me - I always have in my mind I’m voting for the person - they can cross the house next week if they choose.
Aye - it does not sit well with me not to. I'll look at the options and manifestos and make up my mind.
Labour have made it clear they do not care in the slightest for scotland and are not going to do stuff UK wide the SNP government have done ( end to the 2 child benefit rules and fairer rentals)
These are devolved matters. The SNP cannot deliver them in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and will not work with Labour because of their tribal hatred of Labour and pigheaded view on the union that goes against the views of the majority of the electorate.
It's a weird position to be in favour of devolution and independence, but also to vote against a party because they won't impose a policy you want in a country in which you do not live. 🤔
SNP will work with labour. the two child limit is UK wide policy as is the bedroom tax. Scotys government took steps to alleviate them
I will not vote labour because they are brexiteers and attempting to gaslight us over it.
According to the last-but-one leader, the only way the SNP will work with Labour is to impose SNP policies on Northern Ireland, England and Wales! Doesn't sound very true to the principle of self-determination.
Sturgeon suggested she could lend her support to a Labour government if its policies were in line with the SNP’s own. “We see some parties in this election, not least Labour, putting forward policies the SNP have already implemented in Scotland,” she said.
According to the last-but-one leader, the only way the SNP will work with Labour is to impose SNP policies on Northern Ireland, England and Wales! Doesn’t sound very true to the principle of self-determination.
interesting interpretation of what she said (and ignoring the barnet consequences of any such policy in rUK)
"I don’t think it’s that hard to be a little more moderate and reconciliatory:" @ Poly There's a real need for people to be a bit more moderate and reconciliatory in the debate. I for one am sick of the labelling, Snatzis and Yoons guff that goes on in so called debates. Yes there is very much a need to get on with the nitty gritty boring stuff like council tax, and schools , housing etc . It 's hardly moderate or conciliatory to state that independence is "dead in the water" when 45% or more of the population support it.
There's a need for pragmatism and willingness to work together on both sides.
It won't come as a surprise to many on here my vote will be for the SNP though I have many reservations
It ‘s hardly moderate or conciliatory to state that independence is “dead in the water” when 45% or more of the population support it.
Pretty much the only thing of note that John Swinney will achieve as interim party leader will be his decision to scrap the role of minister for independence. When the leader of the independence movement while in they're still in power does something like that it tells every voter the importance to the SNP of the subject.
If you don't think that's moderate, take it up with your SNP candidate.
There’s a real need for people to be a bit more moderate and reconciliatory in the debate.
I mentioned I wasn't going to vote SNP 'again' at the next election and that I wasn't going to vote Alba, leaving the greens and pretty much no one else, and got a very unexpected response about being ok with/asking if I was ok with all sorts of horrible stuff. 🤷♂️
minister for independence.
That was always window dressing. A way for the SNP to signal to the Indy supporters that they hadn't forgotten their role. I always thought it was a mistake. Every SNP minister should be the minister for independence. It should be baked into their position, not forgotten about to be left to one individual.
@piemonster If I do decide to leave the SNP it would be to put all my support into some of the groups who campaign outside of parliamentary politics. Neither Alba nor the greens are for me, for different reasons. So far as I know the ISP don't have a branch anywhere near me. Somebody spoke about the "vanguard" of the independence movement, I believe the "vanguard" of the independence movement is not in parliamentary politics but in social movements .
Suspended for 27 days and pay docked for 54, check your roaming plans!
Pretty much the only thing of note that John Swinney will achieve as interim party leader will be his decision to scrap the role of minister for independence. When the leader of the independence movement while in they’re still in power does something like that it tells every voter the importance to the SNP of the subject.
I know its partly because there's some typos in there, but I can't actually work out what you meant?
Do you think the SNP don't want independence now? Do you think that John Swinney got rid of Min for Indy because he doesn't think Indy is important? You didn't listed to what he said - he said I don't think we need a special minister for this as its on every ministers agenda. Now is it the most important thing for most scots right now? definitely not. Is it the most important thing for most of the 45% who voted yes last time round - probably not. But it it one of the top 6 issues most Scots will discuss on politics - certainly (whether for, against or unsure).
What the SNP lack is a clear path to a meaningful, legal, useful referendum. Thats not an SNP issue. Thats a Westminster issue. The next prime minister would do well to realise that telling people they can't have the discussion leads to a resentment that actually increases the desire for independence. It also stokes the if "WM don't want us to go, we must be really valuable" argument.
Suspended for 27 days and pay docked for 54, check your roaming plans!
He wasn't punished for misusing the roaming. He's punished for lying about it.
Interesting that they have the power to dock pay. That seems to make this a quasi-judicial process (perhaps the suspension does anyway) and I'd argue that there's no way a group of politicians could be viewed to meet the requirements of Article 6.
“Suspended for 27 days and pay docked for 54 “
He got off lightly. Lying to his Superiors and the Electorate,and allowing others without security clearance to use his work computer. He should have been thrown out for his contiuing lies, what was it, around 3 months after, when he admitted he had been lying, and he knew it was his Sons who had watched football? All to get out of paying the bill. It wasnt the initial thing he did that was the problem, if he had just admitted he had used the computer for his own use, and offered to settle the bill, no one would have said anything, it was his cover up and lies after that brought him down, which seems to be a recurring theme with Politicians. Remember the MP from Peterborough, had a speeding fine, rather than pay it and take the points, she lied, was caught out, and got a 3 month jail sentence, even then, she thought she could still be a decent MP. Luckily the Electorate have a chance to boot them out now for such things, rather than wait until the next election.
Do you think that John Swinney got rid of Min for Indy because he doesn’t think Indy is important?
I think he got rid for the reasons he said so at the time, A minister spending time and [taxpayer] money on something that's not going to happen in the foreseeable was a spit in the eye to folks suffering from cost of living crisis and it smacked of party not focussed on the fact that all across the country, services are failing. It was a bit of political theatre to separate his cabinet from Yousef's. But it was also designed to send a signal to union supporting Labour voters - You can vote for us secure in the knowledge that this is issue is on the backburner now.
TJ - doesn't overall voteshare affect stuff like Short Money? So even if you won't vote for any of the candidates you feel have a chance of winning in your constituency, there is still an (albeit tiny) effect that your vote will have. Plus there might be a bit of a "success breeds success" effect, the higher the vote percentages for minor parties gets the more people are likely to consider them worth voting for in the future.
perhaps Chris. As above I will think hard about this and my position is not fixed. It does not sit well with me not to vote
the higher the vote percentages for minor parties gets the more people are likely to consider them worth voting for in the future.
Which is the thing that might make me vote.
Votes do indeed affect Short Money - which was news to me. As long as the party has at least one seat. So does the Scottish Green party qualify by their being Greens in the UK parliament? I thought there was a split between Scotland and UK Greens?
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01663/
Looks like the SNP will be losing a huge share of their funding.
I think he got rid for the reasons he said so at the time, A minister spending time and [taxpayer] money on something that’s not going to happen in the foreseeable was a spit in the eye to folks suffering from cost of living crisis and it smacked of party not focussed on the fact that all across the country, services are failing. It was a bit of political theatre to separate his cabinet from Yousef’s. But it was also designed to send a signal to union supporting Labour voters – You can vote for us secure in the knowledge that this is issue is on the backburner now.
Well which was it the reasons HE said so at the time:
Because the Scottish Government believes independence offers the best future for Scotland, all Cabinet Secretaries and ministers – not just one – are responsible for helping to bring about that better future.
As a party we will use every electoral opportunity to advance the cause. The next such opportunity will be the forthcoming UK General Election. The SNP will go into that election on a manifesto which will say on page one, line one: ‘Vote SNP for Scotland to become an independent country.
We have achieved so much together: a Scottish Parliament and an independence referendum, both of which looked a long way off to me when I joined the SNP. They were accomplished by always keeping our eye on the prize, building support, keeping up the pressure, and trusting in democratic power. That’s how we are going to win our country’s independence.
(that is a direct quote from Mr Swinney)
OR the reasons you've listed above which are entirely different?
Sure, he got The Party Secretary to say the thing as party leader he couldn't
Chris McEleny said: “The new SNP government has made the decision to de-prioritise independence in order to try and broaden support for itself within parliament.
Votes do indeed affect Short Money – which was news to me. As long as the party has at least one seat. So does the Scottish Green party qualify by their being Greens in the UK parliament? I thought there was a split between Scotland and UK Greens?
I've just crunched the numbers - the Green Party numbers do seem to be based only on Green Party voted in England and do not include the Scottish Green Party Votes. That was interesting as I didn't realise there was a direct 1 vote = xx p per annum relationship.
"Sure, he got The Party Secretary to say the thing as party leader he couldn’t
Chris McEleny said: “The new SNP government has made the decision to de-prioritise independence in order to try and broaden support for itself within parliament"
Oops 😁
He wasn’t punished for misusing the roaming. He’s punished for lying about it.
Thank you @poly, I had grasped that, I was merely trying to lighten the mood in here.
interesting interpretation of what she said (and ignoring the barnet consequences of any such policy in rUK)
Why should the SNP refuse or agree to co-operate with another party at Westminster on the basis of its policies in England, Wales and Northern Ireland on matters which are devolved to the Scottish Parliament? Seeking to influence those matters outside Scotland while jealously guarding the exclusive right of Holyrood to legislate on them inside Scotland seems...odd.
In any case, this constitutional crap is tiresome and oxygen-sucking. Let's see the parties' manifestos for the next 5 years.
pca - I don't think that's what she was saying. My interpretation was "I'm quite happy to help work with them, afterall some of the policies they'd like to introduce in rUK we've introduced in Scotland already" now the hidden subplot I read behind that was "if Labour don't take my offer they are being petty" and "potentail scottish labour voters don't need to worry that they'll let the tories in, if they vote for us, because we will help labour if they need it". You can argue that since they don't want to be part of WM long term they should take the Sien Fein stance and not turn up, but given every policy in rUK has a financial consequence for Scotland that would seem a bit dumb.
You can argue that since they don’t want to be part of WM long term they should take the Sien Fein stance and not turn up
No-one is saying that. Comparing the SNP to Sinn Fein is absurd and offensive in every dimension.
The SNP shouldn't seek to use its political power to influence policy outside Scotland on matters that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament when it doesn't stand for election outside Scotland, let alone have a mandate outside Scotland. Should the UUP consider a coalition with the Tories if they promise to impose UUP policies in Scotland?
Even on devolved matters Westminster has influence over Scottish Government policy because of the barnett formula. Why should a Scottish Government of any flavour not then attempt to influence decisions taken at Westminster that have implications for the Scottish Government spending plans in Scotland
"Looks like the SNP will be losing a huge share of their funding."
Air time too - pretty good chance they will no longer be the third largest party so will lose their spot at PMQs and their Opposition Days.
How is SNP supporting Labour any different to the DUP supporting the Tories?
Same limitations apply.
As for
will not work with Labour because of their tribal hatred of Labour and pigheaded view on the union
You got that completely the wrong way round.
You got that completely the wrong way round.
Whoosh!
The oleaginous Anas Sarwar trying, and failing, to dodge a question about whether his family business pays its workers a living wage. He claims he doesn't own any of the business, which is technically true - it's a trust for his kids that owns it.
Sarwar is not my first choice for a clean hands/clean sweep leader to rid the Scottish government of sleaze...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-69063836
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6687889.stm - but this was reversed on appeal to be fair
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/news/05/0525/sarwar.shtml
Does anyone use the electoral calculus website? How credible is it?
Well, they're predicting that the SNP will be down to 12 seats on 4th July. I can't see it going that low!
Whoosh!
Yup. Take it that was your point.