[Closed] Scottish Independence - should the English have a say?

PJM1974: you're missing the slight detail that the Scots already have their own laws, banks, currency, government, healthcare, military (what's left of it), education system, etc etc.

The way I see it, the Scots have an issue with being ruled from London.

The way i see it the Scottish people haven't made their opinion / preference known either way, so i'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion?

Remember, the SNP are the majority government in Scotland, but it doesn't mean that every scot supports independence by default.

The SNP only got in as a protest vote against Labour.

Scots will soon realise that the point has been made, and enough is enoug.

@GrahamS

The money might look different in Scotland, but it's still pounds sterling. As for the healthcare system they're regionally devolved in the same way that England is. I would argue that in many ways the Scots are more efficient at organising it, but it's still the NHS.

As for defence, the Scottish certainly do not have their own independent military.

I just don't get it. For the most part it seems to be a desire to be independent is mainly fuelled by some romantic view of the past. Sure the English nobility have been utter w*****rs to the Scots (and the Irish too - I'm of Irish descent and have strong feelings about the subject of teaching the Great Famine in British schools) but that's as relevent today as dividing England on the basis of Saxon and Norman conflict.

@davidrussell I was typing that with my tongue firmly in my cheek...

@davidrussell I was typing that with my tongue firmly in my cheek...

the lack of a smiley threw me off guard....

davidrussell - Member
the people of Scotland want to be part of an independent nation. why all the hostility over this?

Don't know any non-scot who even considers it, let alone considers it an issue so no hostility, just plenty of couldn't give a "what you do with a caber" and a fair bit of piss taking.....

I'd happily include the english in an independence vote.

The SNP only got in as a protest vote against Labour.

Scots will soon realise that the point has been made, and enough is enoug.

You just keep telling yourself that! The election result last May clearly took the SNP by surprise as well, but the Scottish media seem to consistently underplay the extent of their support amongst the Scottish population.

The Labour party, along with the Tories, are always at a disadvantage because the're both run from Westminster. Until they reconfigure themselves for 'home rule', they'll always be vulnerable to accusations of being out of touch - in the case of the Tories, they've just voted against such a reconfiguration, (and reconfirmed their status as moronic hooray henrys by burning an effigy of Obama at St Andrews)

Don't know any non-scot who even considers it

True, I would hazard that most non-Scots didn't even know [or care] that it was being considered

How many Scots are in favour? Roughly one-third?

The SNP would be better off asking the English to decide, they'd have a far better chance of achieving their stated aim.

You say "support amongst the Scottish population" I say "lack of a viable alternative" potatoe potato, tomato tomatoe etc etc

The money might look different in Scotland, but it's still pounds sterling.

True, but try spending it south of Leeds! 🙂

As for the healthcare system they're regionally devolved in the same way that England is.

Still part of the same umbrella organisation, but (I'm assured by MrsDrGrahamS) the Scottish healthcare system is very different. Free personal care and prescriptions for one thing.

As for defence, the Scottish certainly do not have their own independent military.

Hence, [i]"what's left of it"[/i]. 🙂

The [i]"Scottish Regiments"[/i] have taken a bit of a pounding recently but they are still there I believe. Not [i]"independent"[/i], they still swear an oath to the Queen, but neither are they "English". Plus there is the matter of military bases (e.g. Faslane).

That's something that would have to be sorted out during "divorce proceedings" if it came to that.

I'm Scottish by the way, but [u]not[/u] for independence. (Currently, anyway).

god, i'm going to miss those guys.

I'd imagine the vast majority of English voters don't give a shite about Scotlandshire's independence.

Of course Scotland could run itself if there really was a desire amongst the people to do so. As to the cpababilty of those who would be in charge, Scottish politicians have proved that they are just as capable as their Westminster counterparts of making a complete and utter balls of it.

eg. The Scottish Parliament Building (from Wiki)
From the outset, the building and its construction have been controversial. The choices of location, architect, design, use of non-indigenous materials (granite from China instead of Scotland), and construction company were all criticised by politicians, the media and the Scottish public.Scheduled to open in 2001, it did so in 2004, more than three years late with an estimated final cost of £414 million, many times higher than initial estimates of between £10m and £40m

... all forced through by our 'beloved' Labour First Minister; Donald Dewar. Strangely, they wonder why his statue keeps being vandalised 😐

[b]PJM1974[/b]As for defence, the Scottish certainly do not have their own independent military.

The way I see it, the Scots have an issue with being ruled from London.

I live in the South East and I have an issue with being ruled from London too. And apparently I'm not allowed to devolve either.

[b]woody74[/b]It's not should the English have a vote, it should be everyone in Britain has a vote as it is breaking up of the Union.

Granted to have a full federal system there would need to be a nation wide vote but can't really see the NI, Welsh, Scottish apposing it as they would get more powers and we wouldn't get the current situation where all that parliament bangs on about is english issues.

I have to say I certainly hear more English people saying it would definitely be bad for everybody than I do Scots. Nobody has yet explained why it would definitely be bad for England (and of course the jury is still out on which side of the "bad for Scotland" argument you should believe). Why are the English so scared of breaking up the Union? I understand why many Scots might be scared - but what are the English worried about?

If I'm honest I do envy the Scots' sense of identity. Although I'm English by birth, none of my ancestors were English (to the very best of my knowledge) and the whole notion of English nationalism doesn't sit well with me at all.

My partner comes from a very proud Scottish family and a saltaire hangs above the fireplace. I'm a heck of a lot cooler with that than I would be if it were a St George's cross.

I'd imagine the vast majority of English voters don't give a shite about Scotlandshire's independence.

...and this is why independence is needed.

Although TBH, I'd actually be happy with a federal system though. Give the English a parliament too and have Westminster for federal issues.

I actually have a serious issue with Scottish independence

If those lot north of the border sling their 'ooks, they'll leave us saddled with a permanent Tory government!

Hands up who fancies that then?

If I'm honest I do envy the Scots' sense of identity

You need to get Mel Gibson in to give you a bit of a make-over. Maybe he could sex up Harold and the battle of Hastings?

Free personal care and prescriptions for one thing.

A Scottish MTB'er could buy everyone on the night ride a 'free' (battered obviously) Mars bar, however if they then get a puncture and havent got an innertube because they bought the mars bars with the money they'll still be anoyed, but at least they got that 'free' bars bar. By contrast the english MTBer just put an innertube in is backpack and didn't feel the need to shout about it.

I have to say I certainly hear more English people saying it would definitely be bad for everybody than I do Scots.....................what are the English worried about?

Who's worried?

I think binners has hit the nail on the head for me. I'd feel better though if we had an alternative to Labour too. Can we not persuade the SNP and Plaid to start fielding candidates in English constituencies? 😉

You could end up with a bit of a 'perfect storm' moment for England if Scotland voted for independence, then the Daily Mail inspired masses voted for England to leave the EU. You could end up being Albania-on-sea
😀

Without tourism what exactly has Scotland got as an industry?

Oil and Banks ! And Whiskey.

Without tourism what exactly has Scotland got as an industry?

Lots, and lots of these

[img] [/img]

If I was single I'd be in Aberdeen right now earning a lot more money.

Without tourism what exactly has Scotland got as an industry?

Oil and Banks ! And Whiskey

Electronics, Pharmaceuticals, Engineering (we managed to hide some from Thatcher), power generation (a significant percentage of the power generated in Scotland heads south over the interconnector), agriculture, fishing (much reduced sadly).

Will that do to be going on with?

My partner comes from a very proud Scottish family and a saltaire hangs above the fireplace

As a Scot, I find that cringeworthy

Yeah, but if you did it with a St George's cross, people would just assume you spent your weekends on EDL rallies. Sad but true

Without tourism what exactly has Scotland got as an industry?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland

when i first visited a friends house he had a st georges cross flag a skinhead and an english shirt on. It makes you think about racism sadly which is a shame. He hates racists and what they have done to/with his flag

You need to get Mel Gibson in to give you a bit of a make-over.

I love this myth that Scottish national pride is somehow just a passing thing stirred up by a movie made 16 years ago.

Most Scots are brought up to be proud of their nation and their heritage. We were singing Flower o' Scotland long before Mel decided to paint his face blue. 😀

Like PJM1974 I feel sorry that the English don't always seem to have the same pride in their nation and when they do it is difficult to express without it appearing xenophobic. 🙁

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2011/06/21144516/7

This makes some good reading, and I agree with Graham S regarding Mel Gibson, as a 12 year old kid I wondered about why Scotland did not go it alone, as I got older through the Thatcher years "shiver" it just reinforced this. I would vote independence in a minute and I do not think England should have a say, as has been said once a marriage is over it would be ridiculous for both to have to agree to call it a day.

I feel sorry that the English don't always seem to have the same pride in their nation

Maybe it's cos most of us just aren't that parochial and insecure that we need to go banging on about how proud we are of our cultural identity? And maybe it's because actually, we're really quite culturally diverse, and there is more of a sense of 'regional' identity than a 'national' one. I spose we aren't as [i]nationalistic[/i] in that sense.

I think most of us actually are quite proud to be where we're from. I know I am.

[img] [/img]

I'd say its as difficult for someone like me, from the north to identify with being 'English' as it is for the Scots.

When I see this ridiculous home counties idea of Englishness portayed in Daily Mail-land, I feel the same connection to it as I do to the indigenous tribesmen of Papua New Guinea

i suspect the opinion polls just now reflect the nations desire to stay as is, because they have no idea what the outcome would be should we "go it alone"

That doesn't stop a fair amount of the population wanting to leave the EU though, does it?

When abroad I'm embarrassed to be labelled as English. End of really.

On slightly different note, a chap with Ghanaian parents joined the company I was working for. We took him out for a welcome drink and he asked "does anyone else of a ethnic minority background work here other than me?"

One of the chaps piped up with "I'm from Aberdeen pal, how much ethnic minority do you want?". Well, it made me smile.

Maybe it's cos most of us just aren't that parochial and insecure that we need to go banging on about how proud we are of our cultural identity?

Or perhaps Scots just don't worry so much about what other people might label them for expressing some pride in their heritage? 😀

I think most of us actually are quite proud to be where we're from. I know I am.

Hmm I wonder how many English folk celebrate St George's Day?

It does seem to have gained a little popularity of late, which is good. But I find it slightly odd that a national day which coincides with the birthday and deathday of Shakespeare still goes largely unmarked, while St Andrew's Day and Burns' night celebrations happen all over the world.

I'd quite happily celebrate a "Union Day" if that helps?

You know. I think we have more in common than we like to admit.

I also think a lot of 'anti-English' sentiment north of the border is misplaced anti-toff sentiment, IME anyway. It's interesting nobody ever talks about anti-Scottish sentiment, as evidenced on this thread [well some of it, I guess some is just trolling] and the comments section of any BBC News article on this subject.

I vote we just cull the arseholes, north and south, and everyone else can just get on with it.

GrahamS - The comment about Mel Gibson was meant to be tongue in cheek! I grew up in a family that celebrated our Scottish cultural heritage quite extensively, so I'm very aware that our sense of identity is a lot deeper and broader than 'Braveheart' 😀

When abroad I'm embarrassed to be labelled as English. End of really.

Weird, I'm quite happy to be labelled as English.

On that basis, I don't really see why UK taxpayers' money should be wasted on what is ultimately quite a trivial matter for the whole of the UK.

Haven't read the whole thread, but that comment for me captures exactly the kind of attitude that makes about a third of scots want independance and another third want independence lite/devolution max.

Even if we accept that this is a trivial matter for the uk (which it is absolutely not - why do all the big uk parties oppose it? Because they know exactly what Scotland contributes to the UK - they're not just trying to keep the family together), it's a bloody huge thing for us folk in Scotland.

I did read that a sculptor donated a statue of Mel Gilson as William Wallace to the Wallace monument in Stirling that wound up being consistently vandalized.

Was it because the statue itself was "a lump of crap" as one local put it, or a protest against the hammy portrayal of Wallace? I'd like to think it was the latter...