With the promised referendum coming soon who should have a say in the referendum, what should the question be and ultimately would Scotland be better off?
Is this like the Euro project a political folly or real progress to improve the lives of the Scottish people.
Having lived and worked in Scotland I have many fond memories and made some great friends ...I could not howver escape some of the anti English sentiment. However I can't help but feel that both England and Scotland would be poorer for it out of the union.
Personally I think the English should have a say (even if not a formal vote) as we are two halves of the same relationship and it would be wrong for one to make a unilateral decision?
I don't see how the English (and Welsh?) could possibly not be asked in any referendum - we're a union, all people's opinions are important.
Personally I think the English should have a say (even if not a formal vote) as we are two halves of the same relationship and it would be wrong for one to make a unilateral decision?
Of course England has the right to express an opinion but also has the right to accept the decisions of others without interfering, so no right to vote on the matter.
Last opinion polls I saw on the matter suggested that a majority of English voters would support Scottish Independence, while the majority of Scottish voters were still against it.
Wouldn't it be even worse if the English were given a say, voted for it and it went through even though the majority of Scots were against it?
Also what about the Welsh and (Northern) Irish? Should they get a say?
It takes two to choose to marry, only one needs to decide to divorce. You can sometimes limit the messiness of the divorce though. Do you think [s]UN peacekeepers[/s] Relate will be called in?
Think of it like a marriage. Once one partner has decided to call it a day, the relationship no longer functions.
Would the turn out to vote in England make it worthwhile? Not sure that many English folk have considered it or would. I suspect most are ambivalent. I can't recall it ever being brought up by anyone other than the Scottish, which is fair enough really!
More to the point would it even have an effect on the English? What advatages does the Union bestow on us at a personal level?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-15878391
Looks like business is asking questions that maybe politicians should be asking?
You have to ask whether this has actually been thought through anyway?
Dear Scotland
It was fun. Its not you, its me. We can still be friends though, can't we? Even with you being so ambitious. Needing to move on. What, with your desires to be 'a prosperous independent nation within the Eurozone'. You're right. They're all doing great at the moment. Or even as part of the 'Arc of Prosperity'. I hear that's all going swimmingly too right now.
Good luck with it all. Maybe see you around eh?
England
I thought all the English living in Scotland are already getting a say?
More to the point would it even have an effect on the English? What advatages does the Union bestow on us at a personal level?
No borders, different currencies, significant differeces in laws.
What about national institutions such as the BBC?
Thatebygomm - Member
I thought all the English living in Scotland are already getting a say?
Think of it like a marriage. Once one partner has decided to call it a day, the relationship no longer functions.
Doesn't work that way though, divorce massively affects both sides and has to be signed off by both parties IIRC (apart from exceptional circumstances) so you'd struggle to work that way.
As a citizen of the United Kingdom, I feel we should all have a say in something that affects our nation.
Mind you, tbh Scotland is a relatively minor consideration in the big scheme of things; there are 5 million people in Scotland. London's metropolitan population is 14 million. London produces far more money than Scotland does.
On that basis, I don't really see why UK taxpayers' money should be wasted on what is ultimately quite a trivial matter for the whole of the UK.
Keep it as it is and stop moaning.
I'm not saying it doesn't affect both sides, I'm saying that once one partner wants to leave, the marriage is effectively dead. You're then just arguing over who has responsibility for the children and the cutlery 🙂coffeeking - Member
Doesn't work that way though, divorce massively affects both sides and has to be signed off by both parties IIRC (apart from exceptional circumstances) so you'd struggle to work that way.
Yes. No. Don't know. Oooh look, Snickers...
"I don't see how the English (and Welsh?) could possibly not be asked in any referendum - we're a union, all people's opinions are important."
This comment demonstrates why a good unbiased knowledge of history is required - in this case, a bit of research into how the union came about.
All that really matters is how the remaining North Sea oil revenue is split, I'd say 80:20 in favour of England else someone's going to fake reports of WMD's...
Think of it like a marriage. Once one partner has decided to call it a day, the relationship no longer functions.
Wont someone think of the [s]children[/s] geordies?
No borders, different currencies, significant differeces in laws.What about national institutions such as the BBC?
Yeah, fair enough, but these are hardly big things are they? We're used to differing currencies working with France and Ireland, we already have different laws. The majority of Voters aren't going to notice these differences that much.
National institutions could be interesting. I suppose the BBC maybe renamed and split into three (although there already are significant regional programming differences and local TV). Although why is the BBC still the BBC and not UKTV? Maybe it won't change then.
I can't see many people being that fussed compared to other pressures in their lives.
Wont someone think of the children geordies?
you lot have to keep them 😉
there are 5 million people in Scotland. London's metropolitan population is 14 million. London produces far more money than Scotland does.
I'd vote for an Independent London, preferably with a big wall around it 😀
I'm not saying it doesn't affect both sides, I'm saying that once one partner wants to leave, the marriage is effectively dead. You're then just arguing over who has responsibility for the children and the cutlery
But marriage is a contract based around love. Joint union of two countries is just legal, nothing to do with love. If you lose love in a marriage you're just in the legal union position. So if you want to argue about cutlery and split the finances, I have a feeling the woman will walk away with less unless she can prove she's contributed more than 50:50 to the marriage.
you lot have to keep them
We want maintenance or we set the CSA on you!
What's the point, we'll eventually end up as part of a closely integrated EU anyway.
IMHO the UK works best as the sum of it's constituent parts, the contribution by the Scots (and the Northern Irish and Welsh) to the economy and culture of Great Britain over the last 300 years is incalculable. To split the union now would be like throwing all of what's been achieved since 1707 away.
I'd vote for an Independent London, preferably with a big wall around it
with Boris Johnson as PM...
I think before anyone can vote in a referendum on independence a lot of work needs to be done to understand the social and economic implications of such a split. i suspect the opinion polls just now reflect the nations desire to stay as is, because they have no idea what the outcome would be should we "go it alone"
In terms of answering the OP's point i guess its the west lothian question in reverse. I can't foresee a situation though where Westminster holds a referendum to boot Scotland out of the Big Brother house....
Yes, we English should have a vote, but not until the Scots have voted (to stay) - then we can decide whether we actually want them.
"Yes, we English should have a vote, but not until the Scots have voted (to stay) - then we can decide whether we actually want them."
We'll go if its the will of the people and i hope they would base that on whether it would be good for us. It would be foolhardy to go without knowing all the facts, especially if we would be worse off.
your forebears spent several hundred years trying to force English rule on us so you dont get rid of us that easily.
smiley 🙂 (naturally)
> I'd vote for an Independent London, preferably with a big wall around itwith Boris Johnson as PM...
And Elf could be Snake Plissken.
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It's not should the English have a vote, it should be everyone in Britain has a vote as it is breaking up of the Union. Granted as many have said it is like a divorce but at least the rest of the country should be able to express their opinion especially as it is such a massive historical change. On a slightly different subject, how come there is no english parliament. Should there not be 4 countries, 4 parliaments and one parliament for GB. Maybe a change to the so called constitution to balance the powers of the county as a whole would stop it breaking up. Personally I don't think Scottish independence will be voted for as like the AV vote people in the UK don't like change
[b]Independence for the South East of England!!!![/b]
stupid questions is it the very same people who moan about the west Lothian issue who now want a say in Scotland ?
To not mention the other members of the Union just shows the mentality of the English.
Whatever the engerlanders think they wont get a say
Binners beautiful work
Woody - a full Federal system might work. There's a chance that Scotland might get a chance to support this option in the proposed referendum but I don't see how this can be delivered unilaterally.
I'd vote for an Independent London, preferably with a big wall around it
+1 as long as there are no gates in the wall.
Given we own Scotland I say YES England should be asked.
In the end all that matters is that Mel Gibson started all of this stupid nonsense in the first place.
Hmm - depends on the question I reckon.
If the referendum question is phrased "Do the people of Scotland want to cede from the Union ?" Mebbes Aye/Mebbes No.
Which clearly would not be asked of all of UK.
If the question was "Do the people of the United Kingdom want Scotland to cede from the Union ?" Aye go on/I should jolly well think so chaps/that would be an ecumenical matter.
Then of course it needs to go out all over these islands.
(Factoid I found out the other day, there are 24 million Texans. Compare that to 4 million Scots, 3.5 million Kiwis)
I think if Scotland cedes we should look to joining forces with somebody bigger and cooler than England and Wales. How about Quebec ?? Or even Texas, better weather and some well good hats, NASCAR etc.
Granted to have a full federal system there would need to be a nation wide vote but can't really see the NI, Welsh, Scottish apposing it as they would get more powers and we wouldn't get the current situation where all that parliament bangs on about is english issues. The other nations must get sick to death of watching the news about some new NHS or education story when at the end they say this only effect england. It would also mean that an english parliament would have the time to debate english issues. We just seem to have a bonkers setup at the moment but as we are british we can never change anything as that would be "unprecedented" and a change to this so called constitution that we have, but that we don't actually have written down.
Good points the real issue is the democratic deficit in England!
I'd vote for an Independent London, preferably with a big wall around it
Yep, then we can fill the bugger full of water to make a massive resevoir! Will stop these southern softies stealing all our water!
I'm all for a parliment of the North (England)! Hadrians wall MkII about stoke level?
get rid and quick.. they ll be back snivalling before long and then the smugness will start .. cant wait..
binners - Member
Dear Scotland[s]It was fun. Its not you, its me. We can still be friends though, can't we? Even with you being so ambitious. Needing to move on. What, with your desires to be 'a prosperous independent nation within the Eurozone'. You're right. They're all doing great at the moment. Or even as part of the 'Arc of Prosperity'. I hear that's all going swimmingly too right now.[/s]
Yer bags are on the back step, locks have been changed, laters....
England, Wales & NI (aka the "New Union")
In fact the North needs its own Barnet formula! Independence for the North!
Hopefully one of the "snivalling" Scots will be able to teach you how to use a spellchecker..
Its not a question of one side getting "rid" of the other. Its a question of whether the people of Scotland want to be part of an independent nation. why all the hostility over this?
...change to this so called constitution that we have, but that we don't actually have written down.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta
The way I see it, the Scots have an issue with being ruled from London.
I live in the South East and I have an issue with being ruled from London too. And apparently I'm not allowed to devolve either. 😥
PJM1974: you're missing the slight detail that the Scots already have their own laws, banks, currency, government, healthcare, military (what's left of it), education system, etc etc.
The way I see it, the Scots have an issue with being ruled from London.
The way i see it the Scottish people haven't made their opinion / preference known either way, so i'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion?
Remember, the SNP are the majority government in Scotland, but it doesn't mean that every scot supports independence by default.
The SNP only got in as a protest vote against Labour.
Scots will soon realise that the point has been made, and enough is enoug.
The money might look different in Scotland, but it's still pounds sterling. As for the healthcare system they're regionally devolved in the same way that England is. I would argue that in many ways the Scots are more efficient at organising it, but it's still the NHS.
As for defence, the Scottish certainly do not have their own independent military.
I just don't get it. For the most part it seems to be a desire to be independent is mainly fuelled by some romantic view of the past. Sure the English nobility have been utter w*****rs to the Scots (and the Irish too - I'm of Irish descent and have strong feelings about the subject of teaching the Great Famine in British schools) but that's as relevent today as dividing England on the basis of Saxon and Norman conflict.
@davidrussell I was typing that with my tongue firmly in my cheek...
@davidrussell I was typing that with my tongue firmly in my cheek...
the lack of a smiley threw me off guard....
davidrussell - Member
the people of Scotland want to be part of an independent nation. why all the hostility over this?
Don't know any non-scot who even considers it, let alone considers it an issue so no hostility, just plenty of couldn't give a "what you do with a caber" and a fair bit of piss taking.....
I'd happily include the english in an independence vote.
The SNP only got in as a protest vote against Labour.Scots will soon realise that the point has been made, and enough is enoug.
You just keep telling yourself that! The election result last May clearly took the SNP by surprise as well, but the Scottish media seem to consistently underplay the extent of their support amongst the Scottish population.
The Labour party, along with the Tories, are always at a disadvantage because the're both run from Westminster. Until they reconfigure themselves for 'home rule', they'll always be vulnerable to accusations of being out of touch - in the case of the Tories, they've just voted against such a reconfiguration, (and reconfirmed their status as moronic hooray henrys by burning an effigy of Obama at St Andrews)
Don't know any non-scot who even considers it
True, I would hazard that most non-Scots didn't even know [or care] that it was being considered
How many Scots are in favour? Roughly one-third?
The SNP would be better off asking the English to decide, they'd have a far better chance of achieving their stated aim.
You say "support amongst the Scottish population" I say "lack of a viable alternative" potatoe potato, tomato tomatoe etc etc
The money might look different in Scotland, but it's still pounds sterling.
True, but try spending it south of Leeds! 🙂
As for the healthcare system they're regionally devolved in the same way that England is.
Still part of the same umbrella organisation, but (I'm assured by MrsDrGrahamS) the Scottish healthcare system is very different. Free personal care and prescriptions for one thing.
As for defence, the Scottish certainly do not have their own independent military.
Hence, [i]"what's left of it"[/i]. 🙂
The [i]"Scottish Regiments"[/i] have taken a bit of a pounding recently but they are still there I believe. Not [i]"independent"[/i], they still swear an oath to the Queen, but neither are they "English". Plus there is the matter of military bases (e.g. Faslane).
That's something that would have to be sorted out during "divorce proceedings" if it came to that.
I'm Scottish by the way, but [u]not[/u] for independence. (Currently, anyway).
god, i'm going to miss those guys.
I'd imagine the vast majority of English voters don't give a shite about Scotlandshire's independence.
Of course Scotland could run itself if there really was a desire amongst the people to do so. As to the cpababilty of those who would be in charge, Scottish politicians have proved that they are just as capable as their Westminster counterparts of making a complete and utter balls of it.
eg. The Scottish Parliament Building (from Wiki)
From the outset, the building and its construction have been controversial. The choices of location, architect, design, use of non-indigenous materials (granite from China instead of Scotland), and construction company were all criticised by politicians, the media and the Scottish public.Scheduled to open in 2001, it did so in 2004, more than three years late with an estimated final cost of £414 million, many times higher than initial estimates of between £10m and £40m
... all forced through by our 'beloved' Labour First Minister; Donald Dewar. Strangely, they wonder why his statue keeps being vandalised 😐
em, can I draw your attention to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atholl_Highlanders 😉[b]PJM1974[/b]As for defence, the Scottish certainly do not have their own independent military.
Well you could always generate enough critical mass of support over a long period of years and you might just manage to convince them to let you have a 'SE parliament', then you might just manage to get a vote for independence. Its not about your personal opinion (nor those of any individual scot) its about a Critical mass of opinion which justifies a vote, and then everyone having their democratic say.The way I see it, the Scots have an issue with being ruled from London.I live in the South East and I have an issue with being ruled from London too. And apparently I'm not allowed to devolve either.
[b]woody74[/b]It's not should the English have a vote, it should be everyone in Britain has a vote as it is breaking up of the Union.
Well done two posts in a row that show no understanding of NI. NI is not part of Britain but are part of the Union, and I suspect any attempt to restructure NI to fall within a UK federal system would destabilise the already shaky NI assembly.Granted to have a full federal system there would need to be a nation wide vote but can't really see the NI, Welsh, Scottish apposing it as they would get more powers and we wouldn't get the current situation where all that parliament bangs on about is english issues.
I have to say I certainly hear more English people saying it would definitely be bad for everybody than I do Scots. Nobody has yet explained why it would definitely be bad for England (and of course the jury is still out on which side of the "bad for Scotland" argument you should believe). Why are the English so scared of breaking up the Union? I understand why many Scots might be scared - but what are the English worried about?
If I'm honest I do envy the Scots' sense of identity. Although I'm English by birth, none of my ancestors were English (to the very best of my knowledge) and the whole notion of English nationalism doesn't sit well with me at all.
My partner comes from a very proud Scottish family and a saltaire hangs above the fireplace. I'm a heck of a lot cooler with that than I would be if it were a St George's cross.
I'd imagine the vast majority of English voters don't give a shite about Scotlandshire's independence.
...and this is why independence is needed.
Although TBH, I'd actually be happy with a federal system though. Give the English a parliament too and have Westminster for federal issues.
I actually have a serious issue with Scottish independence
If those lot north of the border sling their 'ooks, they'll leave us saddled with a permanent Tory government!
Hands up who fancies that then?
If I'm honest I do envy the Scots' sense of identity
You need to get Mel Gibson in to give you a bit of a make-over. Maybe he could sex up Harold and the battle of Hastings?
Free personal care and prescriptions for one thing.
A Scottish MTB'er could buy everyone on the night ride a 'free' (battered obviously) Mars bar, however if they then get a puncture and havent got an innertube because they bought the mars bars with the money they'll still be anoyed, but at least they got that 'free' bars bar. By contrast the english MTBer just put an innertube in is backpack and didn't feel the need to shout about it.
I have to say I certainly hear more English people saying it would definitely be bad for everybody than I do Scots.....................what are the English worried about?
Who's worried?
I think binners has hit the nail on the head for me. I'd feel better though if we had an alternative to Labour too. Can we not persuade the SNP and Plaid to start fielding candidates in English constituencies? 😉
You could end up with a bit of a 'perfect storm' moment for England if Scotland voted for independence, then the Daily Mail inspired masses voted for England to leave the EU. You could end up being Albania-on-sea
😀
Without tourism what exactly has Scotland got as an industry?
Oil and Banks ! And Whiskey.
Without tourism what exactly has Scotland got as an industry?
Lots, and lots of these
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If I was single I'd be in Aberdeen right now earning a lot more money.
Without tourism what exactly has Scotland got as an industry?
Oil and Banks ! And Whiskey
Electronics, Pharmaceuticals, Engineering (we managed to hide some from Thatcher), power generation (a significant percentage of the power generated in Scotland heads south over the interconnector), agriculture, fishing (much reduced sadly).
Will that do to be going on with?
My partner comes from a very proud Scottish family and a saltaire hangs above the fireplace
As a Scot, I find that cringeworthy
Yeah, but if you did it with a St George's cross, people would just assume you spent your weekends on EDL rallies. Sad but true
Without tourism what exactly has Scotland got as an industry?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland
when i first visited a friends house he had a st georges cross flag a skinhead and an english shirt on. It makes you think about racism sadly which is a shame. He hates racists and what they have done to/with his flag
You need to get Mel Gibson in to give you a bit of a make-over.
I love this myth that Scottish national pride is somehow just a passing thing stirred up by a movie made 16 years ago.
Most Scots are brought up to be proud of their nation and their heritage. We were singing Flower o' Scotland long before Mel decided to paint his face blue. 😀
Like PJM1974 I feel sorry that the English don't always seem to have the same pride in their nation and when they do it is difficult to express without it appearing xenophobic. 🙁
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2011/06/21144516/7
This makes some good reading, and I agree with Graham S regarding Mel Gibson, as a 12 year old kid I wondered about why Scotland did not go it alone, as I got older through the Thatcher years "shiver" it just reinforced this. I would vote independence in a minute and I do not think England should have a say, as has been said once a marriage is over it would be ridiculous for both to have to agree to call it a day.
I feel sorry that the English don't always seem to have the same pride in their nation
Maybe it's cos most of us just aren't that parochial and insecure that we need to go banging on about how proud we are of our cultural identity? And maybe it's because actually, we're really quite culturally diverse, and there is more of a sense of 'regional' identity than a 'national' one. I spose we aren't as [i]nationalistic[/i] in that sense.
I think most of us actually are quite proud to be where we're from. I know I am.
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