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Not sure it would have helped in this situation mind you...
I have to say that kennyp's responses have been fair, well reasoned and pragmatic.
Rudeboy's attitude reminds me of a headline in The Sun about avalanches:
"When will these extreme sports fanatics learn to stay away from the French Alps?"
Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the key to their either lack of experience or foolishness is that they either didn't read the avalanche forecast for that day, didn't know how to intepret it or just ignored it. As alot of people have said already, many climbers/walkers, including myself, would go out on a grade 3 considerable warning. However, the reports always tell you on which facing slopes/gullies the risks are considerable and therefore not to be ventured on. All other facing slopes will be safe. On that day the grade 3 considerable risk was for NNW thru to East facing aspects. That Coire is directly North facing so right within the risk zone for that day, coupled with the fact that it is a notorious coire for avalanches, then they made a really bad, possibly uninformed, decision.
Anything like this is so sad and my thoughts are with the families of the lost ones. Its so terribly sad.
As an experienced hillwalker, whilst I found the OPs post a bit "urban insular", it has provoked a good discussion on the subject and I've picked up a lot of good points that I will think about when next out. As such this has been a pretty good thread IMHO.
NB Last time I was at Afan I found a lad with exposure 300yards from Glyn Corwyg and helped him back to the centre. So misfortune can happen to anyone, almost anywhere. Did I say i thought he should have thought about it before he went, no, I was just glad to be there at the time and hoped it didn't put him off going again (with perhaps an extra layer or two and a bit of food next time).
I have not read the whole thread but sorry rudeboy - you are missing a point. avalanche risk of 3 is fine for walking / climbing in. Any experienced mountaineer would know what to look for and amend their route accordingly. I don't know the details but I see absolutely no reason not to be climbing when they did - I would have done happily and I am no risk taker. I have herd that the obvious place for a unstable cornice had no cornice or obvious build up of snow.
These people probably did make a mistake - but how stupid a mistake we just don't know.
Scottish winter mountaineering is serious and needs to be taken seriously, an average year kills 20 - 30 folk, but is enjoyed by many many more folk. I myself have climbed that mountain in winter. Its all about awareness and risk assessment. If its not something you do then don't criticise folk for something you know little about. I have altered my route on a mountain to avoid what looked like an unstable slope - the next weekend 3 people died there.
I don't think the people involved were being stupid or irresponsible.
TJ is spot on, the avalanche warning was 3 OUT OF 5. I don't know many mountaineers in Scotland who would be put off by warning at 3 (including myself). In fact its long running joke that its almost always at 3!
Terribly sad for sure, but unlucky rather than irresponsible IMO.
Aye they took a considerable risk however where do you draw the line? Only climb on a Summers day? It'd stop becoming a challenge to any climber. They push themselves I guess, continually tackling greater climbs with inherent higher risks.
I'm not a climber but I can see what and why they do that. Of course there is the arguement about the risk (forget the cost) to the Mountain rescue teams and seaking crews. After all, exposing yourself to danger will also expose others to the same if you get it wrong.
Thats the only part I question. If you opt to climb in a considerable risk zone you should understand and agree to attempt this unsupported.
Andy is spot on, my trying to be cool daughter underwent first stage hypothermia in the centre of Graz one December. There were some harsh words about layers when she had warmed up. The excuse was "I was too warm in the car" and her grandfather hadn't paid attention to what was going on when they left the car.
Hora - one doesn't always seek out more and more risk on the mountains. Its not an adrenaline sport in the same way as MTBing. The risk of accident is always there in varying amounts.
On Saturday there would have be many thousands of people on the mountains. That mountain is in no way difficult or dangerous in comparison to others around. We are not talking an extreme sport here.
You will never hear anyone from mountain rescue complaining about people who are out there with sufficient experience and equipment. The do mountain rescue because they love the mountains. The RAF use it as live training for rescues in war zones. So its not a considerable risk zone and the rescue services are volunteer from the community who do rescue gladly and happily
Anyone know which route they were on? I guess the main route up the corrie? Pic from last year
[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=ytmu1z&outx=800&quality=70 [/img]
[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=ytmu1t&outx=800&quality=70 [/img]
Look at the amount of footprints - loads of folk go up there.
I was in that area the weekend before last, we very nearly did BEM because it was the easier option: not as high, nearer the road and looked clear of snow for the most part. That weekend there was less snow around, and it was colder. We pushed on and did Ben Starav, about 5 miles south of BEM. the forecast was for severe weather coming in by nightfall, 5 pm. We planned to be up and back by then, with little margin for error. Crucially, we missed pushing for the top by about 30-40 minutes because we wouldn't have been back in the car by dark, nor would we have been below the snow line by the time the weather began to turn. So we did go out knowing bad weather was coming, but we stayed within our limits and made it back down just before dusk, if we had copped it in bad weather it would've been bad luck. We then got a puncture on our way back to the A82 in Glencoe, and after 2 hours a towtruck came to take us back to Glasgow. The truck crashed at Bridge of Orchy: a gate blew open and smashed the cab and windscreen in, we were extremely lucky to get out un-hurt. We had to wait in the pub for an hour, for two more trucks, one for the written off truck, and another for the car.
Which just shows, shit can happen, planning or not. All evening we were saying, if only we'd done BEM.......
TJ I| think they were on the way down Coire na Tulaich when a climber above triggered the avalanche. (He can't be feeling too good today). The chap above used an axe arrest and did not fall. The party at the bottom caught the full force and 3 were buried. Decent report linked at the bottom of page 2 by me.
blimey didgerman....
kennyp - MemberAnd one final thing on the topic.........three folk died yesterday in a tragic accident doing something they love............how many folk died yesterday in Britain because they'd spent a lifetime smoking, or drinking too much, or being junkies, or because they were fat slobs who never took any exercise? I've no idea, but let's say it was 20. And 20 the day before, and 20 the day before that etc.......why isn't it headline news in every paper?
I agree Kenny - I would not be out in the hills if it were not for an element of risk. Far rather a life lived than a life wasted on the sofa.
Sandwich - that sounds like "sh1t just happens" Nothing at all you can do about that.
There's a lot of argument as to why its better than sitting on a sofa, which IMO is true, but that is not really the point. The point is that it was their choice to go out, it was their choice to climb that bit. It was their choice to risk it, however small or large they thought that risk was, and they made a mistake and paid for it dearly. No-one else really has the right to wave hindsight-fingers, on another day if someone had posted a story about a 63 year old chap still climbing in snow and summiting such mountains, taking photos, getting out and living, we'd all be patting them on the back. Now when it goes wrong people point and blame.
As a family member, of course I'd still like that person around, but I'd be glad they were doing what they loved.
I haven't got time to read the whole thread unfortunately, but:
Certainly, quite a few of these 'Extreme Outdoor Adventure' types that I've met, have been quite arrogant, and it seems that they use the 'sports' as a way of showing off; 'look how hard I am'. I've met people who've actually boasted about having to be rescued by helicopter and stuff. Stupid ****.
Of all the climbers I've known (and I used to climb) I never knew anyone who was in it for the showing off. Maybe sport climbers are like that, but mountaineers? I can't imagine it.
As for the risks - it's up to you as a node in the great social/personal network to make sure that the people you know and love, and those who love you, understand that you are doing something risky (could be climbing or mtbing, anything), why you are doing it and what the consequences might be.
Personally, I find it a truly wonderful thing that our society values the richness of life enough that people are prepared to devote their lives to providing the safety net that we need to explore it without complaining and often without even being paid. That goes for mountain rescue, race marshalls, paramedics at mtb events, motor racing events, marathons etc etc.
What molgrips said. I found generally mtbers to act much more like arrogant mini poo heads than climbers/mountaineers. Specially since the mtbers with a very big mouth are usually the one that push their bike the most.
I do think you have open your mouth without knowing anything about the subject fred. As said the avalanche risks wasn't inconsiderate. I use to go snow shoeing a lot on my own, and with a risk of 3 I would still go out even on my own. I'll probably stay somewhere where I know it's safe, slope is not too important and where I am likely to meet a lot of people.
Read Rudeboy's first post, which is wrong, and molgrip's last, which is right. Apologies to those who are also right who got stuck in the middle somewhere and I didn't read.
I saw "Man On Wire" at the weekend. Reckless, insane, pointless, brilliant, beautiful. Why are we alive? and what does "safe" mean?
In theory, is it better to be crushed and suffocated by an avalanche, or by joyless dullards' demands that your life gets smaller and smaller? 😐
[i]climber above triggered the avalanche[/i]
I did this once and went down about 100ft before axe braking stopped me. Thankfully no-one was below and I was on top of the slide. The poor guys euphoria in stopping would be dashed due to the casulties further down. Can't imagine what he's going through. Cat 3 avalanche warning? that wouldn't have stopped me going on the hill either.
Why do you do it? - I gave up years ago trying to explain to non mountaineers and cavers (usually asked after an accident!) and I've been doing it for over 40 years.
Rubbish photo from a slide. The cornices are over 10ft high & a couple in the office thought I must be stupid climbing under them 🙂
[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yrde0y&outx=1024&quality=70 [/img]