The other thing that annoys me is for years the pro union vote has been in the lead, with only a very few polls showing independence being ahead, and usually by only a tiny majority.
The snp however seem to think that all it takes is one moment in time of being ahead in the polls to justify another referendum, something that if it goes the way of yes will be irreversible.
Given the very nature of the discussion, and the fine balance between numbers both for and against there needs to be either a long term and consistent majority for independence, or a fairly significant majority - ie over 60 %. Decisions like this shouldn't be made on the back of one referendum where the majority is wafer thin.
Not a single one of the Nationalist arguments make sense unless you impose a fundamental difference between Scots and English (cos no-one cares about Wales or NI).
This is Nationalism.
The voting argument does not make sense - you are citing the fact that Scotland voted en masse for a party that did not stand in England.
He says while standing there championing the cause of British nationalism...
Defo oot this time. 😆
England could have voted LibDem if the electorate had wanted a "middle road".
What is unique about the wishes of (many of) the Scottish people for self-determination that makes them so different from, say, India?
Rightly or wrongly it's coming across that you just don't want Wales to be left behind with the English.
Just so that I understand this, molgrips:
We say that there are consistently differences between the way Scotland votes and the way England votes.
We then say this is a sign that there are fundamental political differences between us.
By saying this it automatically makes us nationalists in the same vein as brexiteers?
What is unique about the wishes of (many of) the Scottish people for self-determination that makes them so different from, say, India?
A majority of Scottish voters have voted for pro-union parties in every single election the UK has ever had. The majority is smaller now but still a majority. Scotland is free to vote anyway it likes, and so far has chosen to remain part of the UK.
That may change in the future, but we aren't being held against our will, or "imprisoned" as the SNP said the other day.
England could have voted LibDem if the electorate had wanted a “middle road”.
With a proper PR voting system I suspect many more would have done so. But that's another debate.
That may change in the future, but we aren’t being held against our will, or “imprisoned” as the SNP said the other day.
I agree (hence my qualifier), but it's surely not wrong to seek self-determination if/when that's what the majority want? Molgrips seems to have some fundamental objection to the principle.
molgrips
But only the Scottish get to opt out because … they’re different?
The Empire's days are over.
Almost everyone has opted out. N. America. Australia, NZ, Kenya, Malta etc etc
So we're no different, we want to opt out too...
As I said Molgrips you appear neither to understand the difference between the nationalism of the SNP and than of the BNP and also how much the countries are diverging politically
I can give some examples - Scottish nationalism is outward looking and inclusive - best shown by this quote from Bashir Ahmed - the first non white to be elected to Holyrood
" Its not where I come from as a person that matters, its where we are going as a country"
Scottish nationalism is not based on blood or ethnicity - its based around a shared identity as the people of scotland not as ethnic scots. All immigrants are welcome.
#As for the political divergence - just look at post war voting patterns. Scotland has not voted for a majority of Tories since the 50s, and the far right get almost no support up here.
During the independence ref campaign we were told that as an independent country we would have no more influence on world affairs than Finland - we shrugged and said " sounds about right" NO delusions of "punching above our weight" and clinging onto dreams of empire. We look to countries like Holland and Sweden and see a much better way of life we would like to emulate - but we cannot while remaining part of the UK.
Maybe you have to live here to understand this but its obvious when you do.
By saying this it automatically makes us nationalists in the same vein as brexiteers?
No. But it does make you nationalists.
He says while standing there championing the cause of British nationalism…
I what now? I'm a European federalist.
We say that there are consistently differences between the way Scotland votes and the way England votes.
Because the ballot papers were different.
Maybe you have to live here to understand this but its obvious when you do.
Lol. 'We're not exeptionalists, we're just different and better, it's obvious'
I can give some examples – Scottish nationalism is outward looking and inclusive – best shown by this quote from Bashir Ahmed – the first non white to be elected to Holyrood
Just like Brexit then. Have you seen Sajid Javid and Priti Patel?
He says while standing there championing the cause of British nationalism…
I what now? I’m a European federalist.
You are greeting at us for wanting to leave the British project...That's British nationalism right there.
You are trying to claim we believe we have a special reason for leaving.. Nup, just don't believe in Westminster domination and want out.
I'm the least scottish "nationalist" person you'd meet.
Why don't you just move up and vote with us? Sound like you want to be Scottish anyhow! 😆 Yer more than welcome.
Probably the best chance you get at a shot of European federalism anyhow, you've no chance under westminster.
Which is exactly what I am too btw, am all for a European state of small nations. It would be great if France, Germany, Spain and Italy would revert back to smaller blocks too, say 4/5 to 20m tops, under a common European federal banner, unlikely I know but it's defo not happening under a British flag..
Trying to be oot, but it's hard, ah f it, back in.. 😆
Maybe you have to live here to understand this but its obvious when you do.
Lol. ‘We’re not exeptionalists, we’re just different and better, it’s obvious’
Tbh, that's just TJ, most of us are quite well aware there's plenty of nobends up here too. 😆
Why don’t you just move up and vote with us?
It's only my intense dislike of nationalism that currently stops me*.
* and my ageing parents
” Its not where I come from as a person that matters, its where we are going as a country”
Scottish nationalism is not based on blood or ethnicity – its based around a shared identity as the people of scotland not as ethnic scots. All immigrants are welcome.
I am not equating nationalism with racism.
But only the Scottish get to opt out because … they’re different?
Well, those in Northern Ireland may well get a chance and the only thing stopping Wales is, well, the Welsh.
tbh, the only overt nationalism that really exists is a few days when they feel the urge to kick about George square or go on a march or two a few times out of the year.
I honestly think it's just more of a social event for most of the flag waving types. They are utterly harmless. A bit a kin to a gala day out or something, not for me, but they really aren't a danger to anyone.
I agree (hence my qualifier), but it’s surely not wrong to seek self-determination if/when that’s what the majority want?
I totally agree.
So we’re no different, we want to opt out too…
Except that the majority of us don't want to.
kennyp
Subscriber
So we’re no different, we want to opt out too…Except that the majority of us don’t want to.
IF you are so convinced, why not go for a quick ref and clamp us.
Otherwise the trend is only going one way.
IF you are so convinced, why not go for a quick ref and clamp us.
I've said above that I'm in favour of a second vote if that is what the majority want. However I think it should be in a few years when we see how things are going. If Brexit truly is a monumental disaster I may even vote for independence myself. However at the moment we do not have anything like the necessary information to make such a crucial decision. The union has been around for three hundred years so is another three too many to wait?
Otherwise the trend is only going one way.
But is it though? I mean we've had Brexit, an idiot elected as PM etc and yet the polls show no significant shift from the vote in 2014.
If the SNP can't score a goal from three yards out when the opposition goalie has gone to the pub for a pint then they are never going to get a better chance.
We know the Tories are going to shaft us for at least 5, probably 10 years, then Labour might get in, but then the Tories will get back in probably for another 20 years and continue the shafting.
But is it though?
The demographics don't favour the union.
Molgrips - thats really offensive. I did not say better - just across the country there is a different political consensus. We want on average differnt things. Higher taxes to give a better welfare state being one of them.
Nothing to do with what is on the ballot paper - you realise there is hardly a fag paper between labour and the SNP on most issues? Why does the far right get no traction up here?
What little hard right we have is actually unionist not nationalist.
So why are the polls showing no significant shift to independence? It’s a genuine question regardless of views on yes/no.
Also, what if Boris point blank refuses to grant a second referendum and in the 2021 election again a majority vote for parties opposed. What do the SNP do?
Why does the far right get no traction up here?
Probably because Scotland doesn't have the same levels of immigration that parts of England does. That's where the far right thrives. I'd love to think I am wrong but I suspect Scotland has the same latent nastiness, it just hasn't found a breeding ground yet.
Cause of Brexit is my guess, it make people a bit weary, but well, that's here so, things should start to shift i think. Particularly in the face of tory intransigence.
The demographics is a seemingly slow moving game, but one day in the not so distant future, that'll hit us in the face if Boris doesn't tip us over the edge.
Also, what if Boris point blank refuses to grant a second referendum and in the 2021 election again a majority vote for parties opposed. What do the SNP do?
It'll need to bid it's time.
Kenny - there has been some movement but not a lot but its been slowly climbing to around evens now. I suspect the next poll will show a significant movement but we have to wait and see. I like many others would like to see a darn sight more than 50/50 tho. Its all about that pragmatic third of the electorate in the middle and they need some convincing. Anecdotaly people are moving from unionism to independence. However the strand of nationalism that is Out / Out may be less likely to vote for independence as in 2014 they would be hoping for an independent scotland outside the EU wheras now post brexit it is clear that we would end up / remain in the EU so perhaps they are now against independence?
the independence movement has a number of sub tribes some of whom want out of the EU I suspect they are moving to NO as others move to yes
As for the next move given a section 30 order will clearly be refused I do not know nor can I see one. The UN route to self determination is not clear cut and the unionist parties could wreck a referendum by a boycott.
Perhaps legal challenges?
I am sure the SNP have something up their sleeve however
Probably because Scotland doesn’t have the same levels of immigration that parts of England does.
Do you have any data for that?
I ask because I remember reading one study that said that in strong leave voting areas the most common reason for voting leave was 'because I feel like I a stranger in my own country.'
The only problem with that was that the areas with the strongest leave vote also corresponded with the areas of lowest immigration.
Kenny - its not just that tho that point may be valid but even in areas where there is a fair amount of immigration we see very little far right traction. I suspect its partly the way the SNP have channelled national pride into being inclusive - its just not acceptable in the nationalist movement to be anti immigrant - that and the hard right nutters of the rangers variety hang their allegiance to unionism
I see it a bit like the Scottish football fans abroad - its self policing. As with the fans if someone ties to act up they get policed by the rest of the fans. I think that the people who would want to be hard right blood and soil nationalists realise there in no place for them in the independence movement and thus there is no breeding ground for them and their xenophobia is challenged by the nationalists
The other problem with a lot of comments on here is to lump all Tory voters together, or all SNP etc.
Have some of you actually met any Scottish or English Tories? I'm tired of being described as racist, sexist, nationalist and unkind. Im not.
Governments, ideologies, voting intention are all very complicated. There are dozens of different types of Tory just as there different types of Labour and SNP supporters.
People need to be more respectful. This thread has evolved into a micro version of the national debate, and it shows why the country can't heal. More extreme voices are drowning out the centrists. I think most Brits are centrist, but we didn't have a choice.
We want on average differnt things.
But still, there is only a 'we' because of the invisible line. You could very easily draw a line across England and get different average results; across Wales, or probably across Scotland too.
you realise there is hardly a fag paper between labour and the SNP on most issues?
But SNP wasn't led by Corbyn was it? If we'd had someone other than Corbyn we'd have a Labour government by now and that argument would dissolve. There are so many issues involved here all over the place, far beyond policy, and yet you are choosing to interpret it as us/them.
Would you support Welsh independence? Northern English independence? London independence?
You had two choices - labour or lib dems. Both occupy the centre. SNP are only a fag paper away from the most recent labour manifesto and in the past the SNP have been more left wing
Brave of you to put your head above the parapet but by voting tory you have voted for a racist PM.
I have removed the Bevan quote I orginally put in
But still, there is only a ‘we’ because of the invisible line. You could very easily draw a line across England and get different average results; across Wales, or probably across Scotland too.
NOpe - not at all.
https://principalfish.co.uk/electionmaps/
I've not commented on individual tories.
It's that the system is rigged in that parites favour. It's it's going to be more rigged when boris's gerrymandering is finished.
Re the polls question above. Yes they have moved a bit, but even as a unionist I'm surprised they haven't shown a solid support for independence. Maybe as Brexit kicks in they will.
However if I was the SNP leadership I'd be worried that what may happen is that things settle down a bit, people shrug their shoulders and pretty much say "Ah well, it is what it is". While people on things like STW are generally quite motivated politically (which is why we're having this debate) large parts of the population are fairly apathetic. I mean we've just had what was regarded as a super important election, yet one in three voters couldn't be bothered to tun out. People do quickly get used to things and living in a post-Brexit country may be one of those. Who knows, only time will tell.
Molgrips - my personal preference would be for a federal europe of small nation states of around 5 - 15 million people. Most european countries larger than that would happily split.
If thats not going to happen I would prefer a federal UK of similar size units.
But thats not going to happen
My only way to get a progressive government is to support scottish independence. Its far from my preferred option but its my pragmatic choice
As regards the far right TJ, I would love it if you are right and I am wrong. I am not convinced though. When the Irish arrived on the west coast in large numbers they faced huge amounts of hostility and downright violence.
Have some of you actually met any Scottish or English Tories? I’m tired of being described as racist, sexist, nationalist and unkind. Im not.
Not many but then only 25% of the population voted Tory. I'm not saying you're racist or xenophobic but you gave them your vote and strengthened their mandate.
And yes, the Scottish Tories I have spoken to tend to be racist. They seem to be the only ones comfortable admitting it.
If we’d had someone other than Corbyn we’d have a Labour government by now and that argument would dissolve.
Assuming Boris sees out a 5 year session, it'll be 70 years since the voters Scotland opted for a Tory government.
You're ignoring my argument because you think the Scottish border is different to any other line I could draw on the map separating voting groups.
I see it a bit like the Scottish football fans abroad – its self policing. As with the fans if someone ties to act up they get policed by the rest of the fans. I think that the people who would want to be hard right blood and soil nationalists realise there in no place for them in the independence movement and thus there is no breeding ground for them and their xenophobia is challenged by the nationalists
TJ's defo drank the cool aid. 😆
molgrips
Subscriber
You’re ignoring my argument because you think the Scottish border is different to any other line I could draw on the map separating voting groups.
The question goes back to you, why is the British border sacrosanct?
The question goes back to you, why is the British border sacrosanct?
It's not. I'd vote for European Federalism, as I said before. Moving to world federalism whenever that's possible.
You’re ignoring my argument because you think the Scottish border is different to any other line I could draw on the map separating voting groups.
NO I haven't. Your point simply is not right unless you draw something very convoluted which is why I put a link to the electoral map.
also I have explained to you that scots nationalism is not an ideological issue to me. Its a pragmatic one. Its just scots independence is the only way I am going to get a government I would like - a progressive one. I am more than happy for other groups to also secede from the UK but there is no way you can draw a line on a map that gives any region of england bar inner london a differnt political tinge. Just look at the map
Go on - draw me a line on a map of the UK that would give a different political slant each side of it.
