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@scotroutes Apologies. What I was alluding to was Sean was a frequent advocate of Scot’s independence while living abroad and not qualifying on the people of Scotland test - though he was generally regarded as Scots. Billy, through most of his life was anti-independence, though he moved to a more nuanced position post-Brexit, while as I understand it living in Drymen for half the year.
They are just examples. Lots of less well known people will have the same confused mix views and potential for participation.
I personally found 2014 very difficult, because I had folk in England tell me I was a foreigner and to go home, while Scotland didn’t think I should have an opinion. Not saying it was right or wrong, just that I felt unwanted by both countries. (Note I don’t mean unwanted by friends, family and colleagues)
I personally found 2014 very difficult, because I had folk in England tell me I was a foreigner and to go home,
I'm going to let you into a secret - they think that of you anyway. 🙂
They really didn’t in 2012.
But to be fair, I’m an arrogant git so I can rise above it all.
EDIT - possibly the reason they didn’t see me as a foreigner in 2012 is because those folk hadn’t realised Scotland wasn’t part of England 😉
You're lucky then. I had folk telling me that when I lived in London in the 1980s.
I’m going to let you into a secret – they think that of you anyway. 🙂
Similarly, there are Scottish people who have the same attitude to anyone from England they come across. You should hear some of the things my sister-in-law says!
Oh, I've met some of them too!
London - the sixth largest Scot’s town in Britain by population (or something like that)
How about this: if Scotland were utterly bankrupt having spaffed all its money away, and England said they’d bail you out, giving you the opportunity to get rich as part of a global empire, how would you vote?
Molly "get rich quick!", I've a bridge for sale, it's cheap - interested?
Reminder - the people didn't vote for the Union, it was decided by a load of rich folk, and some of them got very rich from 'helping' it happen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ker,_1st_Duke_of_Roxburghe
"In 1704, he was made a Secretary of State of Scotland, and he helped to bring about the union with England, being created Duke of Roxburghe in 1707 for his services in this connection."
I got accosted by his ancestor earlier in the week, telling me to "got off my land". Land he gained due to the Union and his part in it.
Indeed. I want to hear some good details on finaces especially. The issue is inionist attacks go unchallenged in the media and become percevied wisdom even if baseless. See the nonsense about not being allowed to use the pound last time. The unionists just ignore the fact that the pound is part owned by Scotland. The bank of england is the uk reseve back. Its division will have to be negotiated
Note, it's a fact that any country could if they want to adopt Sterling as their currency. I'm ignoring whether it's a good or bad idea, but I always point this out whenever I see any saying what Scotland can or can't do.
I’m going to let you into a secret – they think that of you anyway.
Yep, whenever I listen to Unionist talk about been 'British' I always chuckle, because to the average Brit (the English) they're either a "Jock" or a "Paddy".
because to the average Brit (the English) they’re either a “Jock” or a “Paddy”
I follow these threads from afar as I am not well informed enough to contribute, but want to understand positions/opinions on such an important issue. This statement, however, is just offensive. I'm an average Brit (English) and do NOT think Scots are "Jock"s or Irish "Paddy"s. It's blanket statements like that, that do nothing but infuriate and inflame opinions.
See the nonsense about not being allowed to use the pound last time
And that's misrepresenting what said so you're as guilty as the tabloids for not being transparent. No one said Scotland couldn't use the pound, what was said was they'd have no control over it so monetary policy would be set in Westminster for rUK with no consideration of the impact of that in Scotland.
You could argue that's the case now but as Scotland is still part of the UK the differences in terms of needs from monetary policy are much smaller, it's quite conceivable if Scotland was a seperate nation the requirements could be quite different and what's good for rUK could be quite detrimental to Scotland.
It's this sort of not covering all the implications of independence which undermines the case for independence. Of course Scotland could continue to use the pound but there would be a period where they would ironically cede control of their currency in the name of sovereignty until they either setup their own currency and joined the Euro (and have even less control).
It's all very familiar and exactly the same fallacy as Brexit, breaking away does equate to having full control over your affairs, we all live in a global economy. Brexit is proving this (and making the medium term impact of Scottish independence significant worse).
Stumpyjon.
Directky said by tory politicians. Yes sensible folk told the truth but the big lie remains out there
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/02/13/george-osborne-scotland-independence_n_4779204.html
It’s all very familiar and exactly the same fallacy as Brexit, breaking away does equate to having full control over your affairs
Correct and made clear and accepted by the snp
We would have more control tho to set policy to suit
You're partly right stumpyjon
but they did say it
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/independent-scotland-could-not-keep-3142934.amp
George Osborne's "sermon on the pound" produced a rise in support for independence. However it is an old argument now and I am against using the pound for one minute longer than we have to.
This has been an interesting thread and I decided that I should jump in too.
In terms of outlook I am close to that of molgrips and his desire to live in a post-nationality Star Trek Federation sort of world. Nationality is a really peculiar way to define yourself as a person.
That said I am Scottish and have recently moved back to Scotland after two decades or more of living overseas, living in London and travelling internationally with work.
Politically I am absolutely centre-left social libertarian and I say that as someone who pays extra tax for living in Scotland. I am happy to pay my taxes when they go on useful things like the welfare of - ahem - the nation.
If I had voted in 2014 I would've been hard no. I voted remain in 2016.
And in 2023 I will be voting for independence with bells on.
I know that makes me a hypocrite because of my stated preference for a pulse nationality world but I see it as being critical to find a way to break the UK apart at this time to drive the necessary constitutional, political and electoral reforms.
The status quo is untenable and I have no confidence that labour will drive a big enough change. The Tories are abhorrent and they certainly won't drive the right change.
I am in no doubt that independence will be something of a cluster****, but it won't be one of those forever and the hope of re-entry to the EU is too important not to grasp.
HWFG!
No one said Scotland couldn’t use the pound, what was said was they’d have no control over it so monetary policy would be set in Westminster for rUK with no consideration of the impact of that in Scotland.
The biggest impact of that of course, is that it will prevent Scotland from re-joining the EU - If that's one of the aims of Independence. I don't think it insurmountable, (there's always the Euro) but it's one of the biggest challenges, the other of course being the hard border that the EU will demand - and we know now that they will not negotiate. If nothing else than to prevent rUK getting access to the single market through the back door, (so to speak)
Some things are clearer now than they were in 2014, not all of them are to the SNPs benefit.
I should add I would be right up for the Euro.
Talk of EU and Euro are a long way off after independence, the plan needs to be immediate, any application to the EU is joining a long queue just now and will require a lot of work for Scotland's government to get aligned to the required criteria.
It's also worth remembering for all the talk of socialist paradises, leftist policy and so on, Scotland has a large unionist following, and a lot of people who still think it's the 1700s, as the orange marches today show, it's not as cut and dry as the Brexit vote percentages, and worth noting both sides of the political line.
Not true on the EU. There is no queue. Countries join as they are able and scots law is compatible with EU law. This has been made clear. We would be back in quite quickly.
Orange men and other unionist fundamentalists are a tiny number. But for sure i want to see a 60+% yes vote.
More moderate inionists can be brought on board over time i hope. A bitter split like brexit would damage the cointry for sure but i think the boons of independence wod quickly show
Not true on the EU. There is no queue. Countries join as they are able and scots law is compatible with EU law. This has been made clear. We would be back in quite quickly.
There's 7 countries currently recognised as candidates, Scotland would not be back in quickly, some of those candidates have been going through the process for 15 years!
This is the type of thing that will cause issues if independence happens and people think joining the EU will take a couple of years, it is not an easy process and if it's part of any mandate, then appropriate timelines, resources, etc should be provided for any vote.
Yes and the eu has said there is no wueue. Scotland being fully compliant with eu law means no long adkustment period
I would expect this to be clarified during the campaign . Remember that we were a member until recently
Not all of those in favour of independence attach as much importance to the EU as I do it IMO quick reentry is rssential
We are not a monolithic group
The duration of negotiations can vary – starting at the same time as another country is no guarantee of finishing at the same time.
Ie there is no queue. You join when you meet the accession criteria and Scotland basically does already
https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/steps-towards-joining_en
Imo the main issue with iScotland rejoining the EU is we would have to have the euro. Im in favour but i can see that being a hard sell and tbe SNP trying to fudge it. I hope they dont. I hope they are honest about it.
Is Spain going to veto it? That's the question for me.
Ie there is no queue. You join when you meet the accession criteria and Scotland basically does already
Again, proof required rather than just 'we were part of it before', because the UK were part of it, Scotland will be a brand new country, with a different set of metrics to go against the criteria, and will need to be verified by the EU.
This is the type of issue that will need to be fleshed out a lot more than it is at present, otherwise it's Brexit all over again, it's a lesson that should be fresh in everyones mind!
I know that makes me a hypocrite because of my stated preference for a [post] nationality world but I see it as being critical to find a way to break the UK apart at this time to drive the necessary constitutional, political and electoral reforms.
The status quo is untenable
This a Yes position I could agree with.
Argee. I put a link to the accession criteria and quoted the relevant part
There is no queue and Scotland meets virtually all the entry criteria this there is no need for delay.
Is Spain going to veto it? That’s the question for me.
Again i want to hear some clarity on that but post bexit it would not set a precedent for Catalonia thus no need for a Spanish veto . Words to that effect have come from Spain
The EU this time around will be able to give clarity this time round as the UK is no longer a member. Last time round Westminster refused to ask. I wonder why?
Argee. I put a link to the accession criteria and quoted the relevant part
The acccession criteria is here https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/glossary/accession-criteria_en, Scotland as an independent country will have to provide assurance against that criteria, there is no previous, the only previous is as part of the UK. The EU have to carry out the negotiations after the candidate has applied, has been approved through the vote and then completed the negotiations.
Nobody knows the timeline for this, and then after this you have the Euro process, this needs to be fleshed out before any vote to actually provide those voting the options available post independence.
Imo the main issue with iScotland rejoining the EU is we would have to have the euro.
Not quite. Any new member has to commit to joining the Euro. That can only be done after the currency used in that country has met the Convergence Criteria via the Exchange Rate Mechanism of the European Monetary System. If that currency never meets those criteria, never joins the EMS, then that country cannot become part of the Eurozone.
Any new member has to commit to joining the Euro.
In order to meet that criteria, they also would have to have their own currency and central bank. Scotland has neither of those things, and I can't for a moment think that the EU would allow a prospective member to use the currency of a former member that has left somewhat acrimoniously, over which they have no control.
In fact I could see a situation where the EU would offer a fast track deal if Scotland started using the Euro in preference over Sterling.
Yep, so the process would be;
1 Join the EU
2 Decide on a non-GBP currency
3 Join the ERM
4 Meet convergence criteria
5 Join the Eurozone
1 and 2 could happen in either order or simultaneously. And that non-GBP currency could actually be the Euro. As with Sterling, there is nothing to stop any non-EU country adopting the Euro as their currency.
Weirdly the one benefit of the Euro will be the biggest negative for Scotland, that of not having to exchange currency, so again, it'll be down to the benefits provided for either side of the argument, as stated by scotroutes, you don't have to actually join the Euro, just commit, lots of countries within the EU are still in that process, where they probably won't even move over, largest being Poland i think.
Weirdly the one benefit of the Euro will be the biggest negative for Scotland, that of not having to exchange currency,
Guess you are referring to the fact that the biggest trading partner is still likely to be rUK so there'd be more currency hassles with the Euro than if they adopted GBP.
I wonder where I could move to in Scotland?
I wonder where I could move to in Scotland?
We don't want you
I wonder where I could move to in Scotland?
There was a thread this week with lots of suggestions.
We don’t want you
Do they want you?
Just been on Rightmove, looks like Perth is still the ideal spot except for trails.
Just been on Rightmove, looks like Perth is still the ideal spot except for trails
Kinoull hill, deuchry woods, pitmedden, etc all nearby, then you have all the riding between Perth up to dunkeld and then dunkeld 😁
You wont like it, locals are horrible.
Its why after 12 years im still not leaving...
We would be back in quite quickly
See, there it is again - certainty. It’s comments like this, that make me hugely suspicious of every pro independence claim!
Yep. We could be back in quite quickly. Arguably, the sooner independence comes, the easier it will be as many of the pre-requisites will still be in place. However, that depends on a few other things, like (a) will the PoS (People of Scotland) want to join the EU? (b) will the EU want Scotland? (c) the negotiations. As said above though, there is no queue in the normal sense. There are a number of countries wanting to join but it's not that membership has to take place in any particular order. Some countries will be nearer to EU harmonisation than others.
Mistyped It was meant to be "could"
Argee. We meet the accession criteria. How can we not? We have not diverged since we were members.
On currency. What happened with Slovenia at the breakup of Yugoslavia? They joined very quickly but i have no idea what money they used in the short interim.
Gauss. Its just my opinion. I dont speak for anyone but me
will the EU want Scotland?
The border with rUK is the main issue/sticking point as far as I can see. Who could blame the EU for wanting to avoid all the hassle that would go along with that?! It’s hard to imagine (assuming the Tories are still in power) the rUK government being anything other than absolute arseholes and totally vindictive.
Meh. It's all up for grabs. We've no way of knowing the relative positions of the EU or rUK in the timescale we're talking about. While I don't disagree with your view of a possible future, I could just as easily paint one where everything is rosy - change of UK Govt, home truths of Brexit, resolution of the NI issue, access to Scotlands energy/water etc etc. It's uncertain but no need to always look on the most pessimistic side. 🙂
Argee. We meet the accession criteria. How can we not? We have not diverged since we were members.
Since the UK was a member, an independent Scotland will have to set up its own structure, there isn’t much issue with Scotland achieving compliance, but they have to create the construct to be assessed first.
What construct?
Glad you agree there is little issue with compliance
but no need to always look on the most pessimistic side
Sorry, you’re correct - you’d struggle to find a more pessimistic (and cautious) person 🙁
There would be no going back though, if everything went pear shaped (whatever that might look like. However,maybe it wouldn’t be as bad as I fear, even if it didn’t go‘smoothly’).
Sometimes I think I’m coming around to the idea.
My prediction is that an Independent Scotland will adopt the Euro before it becomes an EU member, if it ever becomes a member. I fully expect Scotland to adopt a very unique status… in the single market and the common travel area like Ireland, using the Euro as its currency, but not becoming a full member due to the need to have special arrangements with England (and Wales). Shops in both Scotland and England excepting two currencies will just be shrugged at when it happens. No big deal, payment providers will be happy to oblige for a small fee. All much easier in the near cashless societies we are becoming.
The border with rUK is the main issue/sticking point as far as I can see. Who could blame the EU for wanting to avoid all the hassle that would go along with that?! It’s hard to imagine (assuming the Tories are still in power) the rUK government being anything other than absolute arseholes and totally vindictive.
Its never really seemed a credible thing to say "oh well just join the EU easy, all problems solved, no it doesnt matter about our biggest by far trading partner, well just trade more elsewhere"*
If the pro Indy campaign does** take that line, or anything close to it, and not just some random cyclist on a forum then a may well change my vote.
Seems far more reasonable to plan to be out of the EU for some considerable time but with better operational relationships than the ****s in Downing Street are managing.
*Ive heard this before somewhere...
**Frankly im tired of having to deal with society changing shit. I'll pay attention to the sales pitch nearer the time. So i may well have missed something.
For me EU membership and the euro asap is both necessary and desirable. It would provide a bulwark and support as part of the larger European economy. It would save all the costs and risks associated with the scotttish pooond. ( although a scottis pooond woul be a relatvly strong currency because of the oil)
I also believe strongly in the philosophy of a united europe.
Its not a view universally shared
The other thing to note is some of the decisions will be made by the first post independence government. The snp can only suggest what route to take. Of course the other parties will not make their own suggestions for a post independence Scotland having nailed their flags to the preservation of the umion at all costs and refusing to envision anything else.
Labour in Scotland contine their march into obscurity having nothing positive to say ever and their anti snp alliance with the tories damages labour more each day
I find it intensely frustration the lack of positive action in any direction from labour but until they split from london and start to produce policies for scotland and a sensible position on the constitution they will just gently slide further into irrelevance. Their attack line should be " good policy but too timid. Do this as well or instead" rather than just shouting SNP baaaaaad all the time. Similarly on the constitution they need something between keep the malfunctioning status quo and independence now. Look for a better devolution settlement that takes the wind out of the SNPs sails.
Labour in Scotland has forgotten who the enemy is. Their pacts with the tories shows this. How can the labour party work with tories but refuse to do so and indeed to block another social democratic party?
oh well just join the EU easy, all problems solved, no it doesnt matter about our biggest by far trading partner, well just trade more elsewhere”
I do think joining the EU will be ok but although it is no magic wand to the border with rUK indeed in some ways makes it harder.
A common travel area like with Ireland solves movement of people.
Trade? Gonna be issues no matter what. A lot depends on how rUK acts. I guess we need to plan for a worst case.
It will however be in rUK best interests to be cooperative. Barriers to trade hurts them as well and this will be after the next uk election so one might hope for a better government in Westminster
Lots of ifs and buts, common travel area is good, but at the cost of the ease of movement within the rest of the UK?
Again, what are the actual potential positives and negatives of joining the EU or the Euro, all the talk is of rejoining, but at what cost, and for what benefit?
It'll be in the rUK interests to be cooperative, why, the minute independence is real the rUK will be looking after its own interests, as you'd expect, barriers to competition is the least of the worries, the size of any hole left due to withdrawal of infrastructure, contracts, etc and how it's filled will be more pressing!
Benefits?
To have a government that reflects the wishes of the people of the country i call home. Scotland.
If I could have this in the context of the UK I would prefer that but I cannot. Im 61 and have lived here 40 of those. Rarely have I seen a government in Westminster that comes anywhere close to reflecting the will of the people of Scotland
In more practical terms EU membership in itself is IMO a huge boon.
The ability to set immigration policy to suit our needs.
To set tax and benefits policy
To raise money on international markets
Loads more things a sovereign country can do that Scotland can't
My judgement is that overall an independent Scotland would be a better place to live in those years I have left
Hence I am a pragmatic independence supporter.
Common travel area encompassing iScotland rUK and Ireland
Common travel area encompassing iScotland rUK and Ireland
Would make sense
A Tory government would probably oppose out of spite, but, if Scotland were offering it, rUK public would surely want it
To have a government that reflects the wishes of the people of the country i call home. Scotland.
You'd get a *system* that more accurately represents the wishes of the people. A subtle but important distinction.
No a government as well. We have had decades of tory rule we have never voted for
Scotland currently votes for social democratic and green parties with a small amount of rural moderate tories. Has done for a long time.
Here is an interesting comparison of Scotland and Ireland - basically the Scottish economy is bigger than Ireland's, so no reason it could not thrive.
https://twitter.com/BaylanFrances/status/1543726584875700224?s=20&t=ez2LE6q7IWO2rWDgGinj9Q
Well what a load of pish from Starmer and Sarwar on Scotland. How Sarwar can say we need co operation not conflict when labour sulk and moan and complain is doublethink at its finest.
Thats just ended labour in Scotland
The same Anus Sarwar that suspended two Labour Party councillors because they refused to back a deal with the Tories in Edinburgh?
The same one indeed. Its despicable. Did you enjoy the committe of parliaments idea? Both timid and absurd.
Two cheeks of the same arse indeed.
I had hopes for Sarwar but I think he has been nobbled by London. He has certainly changed his tune
I don't blame the scotts one iota. If I were scottish I'd be really angry right now.
Westmintser is out of control, and all Kier starmer is doing it trying to maintain some sort of status quo.
What we are seeing here it the ulitamte death of the united kingdom with these idiots in charge.
If I were scottish I’d be really angry right now.
I'm English, and I'm really angry. Although my mum is Scottish, perhaps I'll apply for a passport if Scotland becomes independent.
I think you misspelled Sarwars name scotroutes🤣🙄
I don't think I did
I don’t blame the scotts one iota. If I were scottish I’d be really angry right now.
Anglo-Welsh here, also angry. Also angry at people who think that wanting change is a Scottish thing and everyone else is perfectly happy with the government that s minority of people voted for.
I think this article is worth a read particularly the bit about online debate
https://www.thenational.scot/politics/20252101.online-arguments-deal-certainties---even-wrong/?ref=fbshr
What Molgrips said.
No one on this thread said you were happy with the tories.
Also angry at people who think that wanting change is a Scottish thing and everyone else is perfectly happy with the government that s minority of people voted for.
Molgrips, you strike me as an intelligent chap. Which makes it all the more perplexing that you are able to misconstrue the opinions of others again and again and spout this utter tripe. It's one hell of a chip you are sporting there fella.
I'm anglo welsh also... all I'm seeing from Labour and the tories is institutional racism, cronyism and political cowardice..
Hence I will not vote for them.
With the divisive Johnson now gone, it surely punctures the SNP balloon on this matter?
Nope. You honestly think this lunacy strengthens the case for the Union?
Biggest cost of living crisis for 30 years, yeah lets have a leadership contest and give the bumbling baffoon another few months.
Insanity, get me away from this pish.
An old one but still worth posting every now and again, Tories showing their true colours and laughing at jibes regarding Scottish slaves
https://twitter.com/tradasro/status/969601483388923905?s=21&t=BqilUe9myCta8ZvNshZlpg
With the divisive Johnson now gone, it surely punctures the SNP balloon on this matter?
LOL no