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tjagain
But the SNP are not the same as the electorate. Ukip got 7% of the vote at their peak compared to 25% in england – and no one that votes SNP now will vote UKIP or hard right in the future. they might vote for a future centre right grouping but that movement willbe small
I don't think you can make that assumption, views on immigration are almost identical across England and Scotland, and Wales in fact also.
The SNP really are amazing, in that they've remained so domininat for so long in Scottish politics
The indy question kepps them sustained as a broad church, inspite of any failings or contradictions between supporters.
The irony for tory or Labour voters in Scotland is that this doesn't seem likely to change, the only way the SNP hegemony will be broken would be for them to actually gain independence & then a more 'normal' political landscape should resume
I don’t think you can make that assumption, views on immigration are almost identical across England and Scotland, and Wales in fact also.
Care to provide evidence?
I tend to agree - the best way to get rid of the SNP as scottish government is to vote for independence. But point of order - they have only been dominant for around 15 years or so. labour were completely dominant for 40 years
number of penalties they get is reduced!
I take it you've not seen yer goal from last night then? 😉🤣
True, I wouldn't say I was a "SNP guy". They're a tool to an end and for me that would be a coalition with good Green party representation
Put all that together and then the SNP really have no choice but to get the referendum in before 2023. Otherwise the party will split up into factions and lose power and thus lose the chance
I think there's a measure of that expectation at Westminster as well. Both major parties have reason enough to try to break the hegemony of the SNP, factional infighting over the timing of an independence referendum would be the way I'd go if I were leader of either Labour or the Tories
@tjagain I've been telling the haters that for years, if you want rid of the nationalists, vote yes. Totally pickles their heids 🤣
@ygh my sentiments exactly.
I have never voted SNP. I dislike the over controlling over centralising aspect and my local SNP MP is a lying fud who is clearly only in it for money. My SNP MSP is a good guy to but its now a safe seat for him. Always green on list vote
Nobeerinthefridge
Free Member
number of penalties they get is reduced!I take it you’ve not seen yer goal from last night then? 😉🤣
Lovely strike by Furuhashi!
multi
There is a huge disconnect between the results of surveys like that and what actually happens on the ground. I do not know the reasons for that. I suspect poor methodolgy
There is a huge disconnect between the results of surveys like that and what actually happens on the ground.
Yes, if you look at actual numbers England is far more welcoming to immigration than any other home nation.
Then why are voting patterns so different? Why does anti immigrant rhetoric get so little traction up here?
could be multiple reasons from shy racists not appearing in the polling data down south to people finding economic and social attitudes from parties much more important than immigration policies to the social atmosphere here making it harder for racists to express their views publicly to simple poor methodology
Then why are voting patterns so different? Why does anti immigrant rhetoric get so little traction up here?
Probably for the simple reason that there are far, far fewer immigrants, particularly ones with the "wrong" skin colour.
I suspect that if parts of Scotland had the same immigration levels that you see in parts of England, then those same nasty, xenophobic attitudes would, sadly, rise to the surface here.
Take for example the experience of Irish immigrants to parts of the west coast back in the 19th century. The attitudes of some Scots to those incomers was no better than the attitudes of some English people toady.
Thankfully in both cases it's a small, but vocal, minority of both Scots and English, but I very much disagree with this notion that Scots are somehow morally superior to our cousins down south.
I’m actually pretty convinced that we are.
Oof.
You need to have a think about how media works and how you get your information.
Wow downright patronising! Out of interest do you think my knowledge of England or my knowledge of Scotland is wrong and which bits of which media do you think influenced me to arrive at such a wrong conclusion?
I agree with loys of that, we're in no way morally superior at all.
However, there is a 'we're aw Jock Tamsons bairns' mentality, we've definitely become more accepting in my lifetime, and we don't really have as much of the 'Britainnia rules the waves' superior mentality that some do below Gretna.
All anecdotal of course!
It all comes down to opinions, so is it roasted cheese, or toasted cheese, is it square sausage, or lorne sausage and so on
this notion that Scots are somehow morally superior to our cousins down south.
Oh I would agree - but then I don't see anyone saying that
What I am saying is voting patterns are very different with right wing anti immigrant parties getting no traction - to the point Scots Tories have tried to disassociate themselves from the English tories. We have a openly pro immigration party getting a huge % of the vote and anti immigrant rhetoric gains no traction here as can b seen from the total failure of UKIP to ever gain any significant support
There is no value judgement in this - just a set of observations
It could just be being contrary for example - "whatever those bastards down south do we do the opposite" which would hardly be morally superior
and we don’t really have as much of the ‘Britainnia rules the waves’ superior mentality that some do below Gretna.
That may be a key aspect. I remember during the independence campaign where the unionists tried all sorts of tactics. they floated the idea " iScotland would have no more influence on world affairs than finland" which was met with a collective shrug and " that sounds about right" "who cares" Hankering after the days of empire seems to just not exist here. ( which given the pivotal role scots played in the empire is odd)
and we don’t really have as much of the ‘Britainnia rules the waves’ superior mentality that some do below Gretna.
While I think that attitude is pretty vocal amongst the usual suspect of the popular RW press (Sun, Mail, Telegraph) I don't think it's a opinion widely held in the general population. I think most English and Welsh would react to a successful Indy vote with sadness TBH
I suspect that if parts of Scotland had the same immigration levels that you see in parts of England, then those same nasty, xenophobic attitudes would, sadly, rise to the surface here.
Those "xenophobic attitudes" down here are more prevalent where there are fewer immigrants.
I've generally found more racist attitudes in areas where there are less non-white folk (i.e. rural Fife where I'm from and go back to a lot) as opposed to more cosmopolitan areas (Southside of Edinburgh where I lived for ages). I guess it's easier to see them as "lesser" or "other" if you never meet them. But if you end up having a nice chat or working with foreign people then you see them as equals?
Aye, which is why I did say some.
However, there is a ‘we’re aw Jock Tamsons bairns’ mentality, we’ve definitely become more accepting in my lifetime, and we don’t really have as much of the ‘Britainnia rules the waves’ superior mentality that some do below Gretna.
Aye and A Man's a Man for a that!
We do absolutely have our fair share of knuckle draggers though, just witness all the disgusting behaviour around football and "marches"
I think there is a different mentality, not better but different. Scotland will always be a small nation and as such we have generally looked outward rather than inward. The clearest demonstration to that was the different attitude to Europe.
Another step change in the debate around nationalism and independence was the very clear articulation that its not about the "Scottish People" as some sort of ethnically distinct group separate from the rest of the UK, if that was ever even valid, to being about "The People of Scotland" which was anyone who lived here regardless of their background.
As Kelvin says - the Edinburgh is very much an immigrant town ( mainly white) its very rare to hear any racism or anti immigrant feeling
the bit I live in is a very odd mix of gentrified, long standing immigrants, recent immigrants and a traditional working class scots. I have never seen or heard any anti immigrant feeling
the very clear articulation that its not about the “Scottish People” as some sort of ethnically distinct group separate from the rest of the UK, if that was ever even valid, to being about “The People of Scotland” which was anyone who lived here regardless of their background.
Has that meant the anti immigrants have had to not make their feelings public but feel free to say so in private ie polling? But that does not explain the clear difference in voting patterns
Probably for the simple reason that there are far, far fewer immigrants, particularly ones with the “wrong” skin colour.
I suspect that if parts of Scotland had the same immigration levels that you see in parts of England, then those same nasty, xenophobic attitudes would, sadly, rise to the surface here.
I think you are probably mostly right, (although I'm not sure your skin colour point is quite right - there are places in Scotland where Syrian refugees are welcomed but glasgow born white Catholics feel intimidated!). I think there is also a difference - there is no political party jumping on the immigration card here, in fact it's used the otherway by politicians to complain about Westminster. Its also worth questioning the "far, far, fewer" claim :
___________born outside the UK (%)___from EU (%)
England____15.7______________________5.5
Wales______6.0_______________________2.6
NI_________7.6_______________________4.7
Scotland___9.7_______________________4.8
UK_________14.5______________________5.3
London_____36.9______________________11.0
Kent_______10.4______________________4.0
Fewer yes. Far far fewer? Maybe than london - but not compared to kent where people were trying to block a lifeboat from launching to save drowning immigrants!
Take for example the experience of Irish immigrants to parts of the west coast back in the 19th century. The attitudes of some Scots to those incomers was no better than the attitudes of some English people toady.
And the undertones of that remain today and politicians of all flavours do too little to sort it out.
Thankfully in both cases it’s a small, but vocal, minority of both Scots and English, but I very much disagree with this notion that Scots are somehow morally superior to our cousins down south.
I certainly wouldn't be naive enough to suggest that Scotland was morally superior, and I did say a few pages ago we aren't that different from any other western country (those issues are found even in places like Sweden which is often purported to be some sort of magical place where everyone gets on nicely and cooperates together). But there is a difference, in the same way that Portugal and Spain have differences or France and Belgium, Austria and Germany, Australia and New Zealand, America and Canada. Nobody would seriously suggest that any of them should just merge because they are "close enough", and nobody is scoffing at the Norwegians and Swedes for deciding to separate their kingdoms just over 100 years ago despite to most of the rest of the world their cultures and politics being so similar.
I think there is also a difference – there is no political party jumping on the immigration card here,
Is this chicken or egg tho?
I think there's a difference to being truly accepted or merely tolerated as an immigrant.
I got told to go back to Poland when I was Edinburgh.
The man may not have cared about my nationality so long as I didn't inconvenience him but the moment I did, I'm the unwelcome immigrant.
Not that it should matter but I'm not Polish.
Also, as somebody who's been known to fly off the handle I was completely calm in this situation as I had my little dog in the car and I didn't want her getting upset.
I don't remember any other incidents.
I think there's all kind of subtleties that one might not pick up on when is comes to racist and anti-immigrant attitudes towards others too.
An extreme example would be Laurence Fox saying there's no racism in the UK. Aye, he'd know.
I think there’s all kind of subtleties that one might not pick up on when is comes to racist and anti-immigrant attitudes towards others too.
I think that is correct but as I have a very english name and accent and have been actively fighting racism on and off since the 70s I believe I am pretty sensitive to it - especially anti english racism which has been alluded to in this discussion as a reason for no anti other immigrant racism.
why would scotland after voting solidly left wing for 60 years suddenly turn to the right post independence??
You've read Animal Farm?
I don't doubt it, @tjagain.
And interesting point about your English name and accent.
I guess I just came across a very angry man in the Edinburgh car park who decided to blame immigrants for his problems that day.
molgrips
Full Member
why would scotland after voting solidly left wing for 60 years suddenly turn to the right post independence??You’ve read Animal Farm?
You expecting an independent scotland to turn in to armed rebellion? 😆
You’ve read Animal Farm?
Yes - and understood it. I totally fail to see where the parallels are. We are not in a revolution against a feudal society situation nor do we have a Stalin or Trotsky figure waiting. We live in a mature democracy
the pilot - of course there are racist numpties here - try going to south lanakshire and wear green!
Maybe I flatter myself but as a very obviously of English descent man who worked in a female dominated profession and was brought up0 by a radical feminist I do feel sensitive to discrimination. I have seen discrimination in Scotland reduce dramatically since I first came here in the 70s
Indeed I got called out on the Starmer thread for calling out the playing of the race card by politicians and the increased racial tensions that causes.
So if I understand correctly, we somehow have elected the SNP for a fair number of years now but we're not actually in favour of:
- independence
- social democratic policies
- immigration
Anything else?
Is this chicken or egg tho?
I think it's actually a self-perpetuating thing requiring sufficient politicians, media, public to all feed off each other to propagate the idea. It works the other way too - #me2, and suddenly every politician and media outlet is sticking up for women rights.
we
One think that really pisses me off is people generalising about each other as if any particular random grouping are all of one homogenous mind. This is a key fallacy in nationalist debates.
Yes – and understood it. I totally fail to see where the parallels are.
Lol.
I said that in response to the suggestion that Scotland is going to remain left of centre forever after independence. The reference to Animal Farm is that at the end of the book the pigs end up becoming just like the humans.
If Scotland is left of centre now, why do you think that might be? What causes people to vote left? How many people actually know what left and right are these days?
I certainly do not remember anyone using either the outright racism of the tories or the nod and wink dogwhistle that labour do down south in scots politics.
Molgrips - please stop being so offensive about a topic you clearly do not understand one iota
No one has said we are all homogeneous either side of the border - just that the average or mid point is in a different place.
Your ignorance here shines thru. Scotland has a long history going back hundreds of years of community and social action / desire for social justice. There has been a fair amount of discussion as to why that is on this thread but if you are going to comment please both listen to what those better informed than yo are saying and read some history
Please - you are are being quite offensive. Take a step back and think why
You mean "please stop disagreeing with me"?
No, I don't think I will. I might stop responding to you though as it's not good for the thread or anyone's mental health.
NO - I mean stop being offensive. I mean what I say. I am not the only one to call you out on this. Disagree all you like but you cannot just say " you are wrong" Your reply to poly was both arrogant and offensive
I might stop responding to you though as it’s not good for the thread or anyone’s mental health.
Maybe a good idea. You're not coming across well coming out with stuff like this.
Poly is a very well informed person - more so than me. I don't always agree with them but they can back up what they say
You continually put words in peoples mouths because of your lack of understanding of the basic concepts
this was Polys reply to you - care to comment?
I’m actually pretty convinced that we are.
Oof.
You need to have a think about how media works and how you get your information.
Wow downright patronising! Out of interest do you think my knowledge of England or my knowledge of Scotland is wrong and which bits of which media do you think influenced me to arrive at such a wrong conclusion?
molgrips
Full Member
You mean “please stop disagreeing with me”?No, I don’t think I will. I might stop responding to you though as it’s not good for the thread or anyone’s mental health.
I think a better reason would be that we all understand you are British nationalist and won't ever agree with anything that endangers it. 😆
I think thats unfair seesamh- Molgrips simply hasn't the knowledge or the understanding on this topic and doesn't realise he doesn't
I think a better reason would be that we all understand you are British nationalist and won’t ever agree with anything that endangers it.
Not really. I'd seriously consider voting for Welsh independence if it ever came up.
What I object to is Scottish exceptionalism along with everyone else's exceptionalism. I'm happy to discuss the implications and motivations of independence for UK nations; I only pipe up when the stench of 'we're better than you' becomes overpowering. And I know you'll protest that, but the stench is still there.
And the justification you usually bring out, which is "we want control over our government" is just the same sentiment dressed up differently. It's the assumption that living on one side of the line or the other makes you somehow different to those born on the other side.
TJ's description of pragmatic nationalism, as a means to an end, is about the most sensible thing on these threads, however what he then goes on to write later starts to get my heckles up, he can't seem to talk about it without sounding exceptionalist.
Molgrips simply hasn’t the knowledge or the understanding on this topic and doesn’t realise he doesn’t
It's more a case that you aren't understanding what I'm trying to say. You are too quick to read, assume and jump in with the fingers to keyboard. I'd love to discuss more but you make it really difficult with your tone of voice.
It's not unfair at all.
What I object to is Scottish exceptionalism along with everyone else’s exceptionalism.
Care to point this out? I see no sign of it indeed a fair bit of discussion around this point in effect seeking the roots of the clear and obvious differences in political view.
And the justification you usually bring out, which is “we want control over our government” is just the same sentiment dressed up differently. It’s the assumption that living on one side of the line or the other makes you somehow different to those born on the other side.
this is simply neither logical or true. Scotland is a country Has been since gawd know when. Its part of a union of countries. Many of us feel the union no longer meets our needs. there is no assumption we are different.
Again please point this out? My thesis is that the political difference shown in voting patterns come from difference in political leadership - and that point has been discussed on here
My guess is you are seeing what yo are lookiig for. I understand your sentiment - I am internationalist in my viewpoint. But because this is a particular bugbear for you you see it everywhere. Ever heard of the "Scottish cringe"? hardly a doctrine of exceptionalism!
Care to comment on Polys reply to you earlier?
What I object to is Scottish exceptionalism along with everyone else’s exceptionalism. I’m happy to discuss the implications and motivations of independence for UK nations; I only pipe up when the stench of ‘we’re better than you’ becomes overpowering. And I know you’ll protest that, but the stench is still there.
Enlighten me. Where did I suggest Scotland was better or even exceptional. I said different and even explicitly said something to the effect of not that any western countries are that different, and your reaction was to the effect that I must be being brainwashed by some media (I've no idea which media you think that is).
As this thread drifted on to party politics here is a thought I had. My feeling is that tories with gravitas or are a bit tweedy do better in Scotland rather than the city boy / spiv type
Think Ri****d ( a lawyer with a bit of gravitas) or Goldie ( a rather tweedy type) Davidson being the exception to this theory
Would the torys in Scotland do better with someone like that at the helm? do they even exist any more? Ross is just a nonentity and does not come over well at all.
If only Dross was a non-entity he's much worse than that
gordimhor
Full Member
If only Dross was a non-entity he’s much worse than that
Aye, a referee. 😆
Aye, a referee
🤣He's no even that
Molgrips – please stop being so offensive about a topic you clearly do not understand one iota
No one has said we are all homogeneous either side of the border – just that the average or mid point is in a different place.
Your ignorance here shines thru. Scotland has a long history going back hundreds of years of community and social action / desire for social justice. There has been a fair amount of discussion as to why that is on this thread but if you are going to comment please both listen to what those better informed than yo are saying and read some history
Please – you are are being quite offensive. Take a step back and think why
Tj: It could be argued that this is far more offensive than anything Molgrips said.
For the briefest of moments a while ago, I considered that I might vote for independence. But, as with prior to the last independence vote, anyone who questions the dubious claims of those arguing for independence gets shouted down.
Ok - I don't see that as offensive but if it is then I do apologise,
Ok – I don’t see that as offensive but if it is then I do apologise,
Fair enough, but you told him he does not understand- essentially disagrees with you, was ignorant and unthinking.
The pro independence side has a habit of shouting down anyone who is in any doubt, rather than explain their points clearly, imho.
The pro independence side has a habit of shouting down anyone who is in any doubt, rather than explain their points clearly, imho.
Yes it does happen but please note i was not the only one offended by Molgrips accusations and there are unionist scots on this thread
the discussion was pretty good tempered until Molgrips came in and attempted to tell us what we were saying , getting it wrong and would not listen when it was attempted to explain why he was wrong
When you argue from a false premise then the argument is false. to accuse people on multiple occasions of doing things they are not doing because you do not understand the basic premise is very frustrating
gauss1777
Free Member
Ok – I don’t see that as offensive but if it is then I do apologise,Fair enough, but you told him he does not understand- essentially disagrees with you, was ignorant and unthinking.
The pro independence side has a habit of shouting down anyone who is in any doubt, rather than explain their points clearly, imho.
molgrips has more than a habit of telling everyone they are scottish exceptionalists though, just cause he thinks so, it's his thing. 😆 He shall not deviate from this unwavering truth he's concocted in his brain. 😆
Thats the point. We can see a difference - thats not a value judgement. We were exploring why the difference ( much more leftward voting, no politicians use anti immigrant rhetoric etc etc) We then get accused of exceptionalism which involves a value judgement
We were saying " there is this difference. Why? is it this is it that? including discussing options that frankly do not show the scots in a good light We also discussed the nastier side of the debate ( sectarianism)
Molgrips comes in and accuses us of thinking we are superior
I think Seosamh is too tough on Molgrips and called him out for it. We didn't fall out ( did we ?) 😉
couple of unionist Scots put their 2 bob worth in - the debate remained respectful
Well, that’s not the way it comes across.
Fair enough Gauss. We need folk like you onside!
Invariably on this thread it is people pissing INTO the tent that make claims about Scottish exceptionalists. I don't actually remember a time in the 30 years I have been able to vote that we had less in common with the neighbours politically, and I include Thatchers mob in that.It just seems a recent variation on the "too wee." theme from about the time of the first referendum.
Indeed - there is nothing exceptionalist about looking to the nordic and low countries and thinking - we could be like that. You know - comprehensive welfare systems, decent levels of benefits, decent housing for all.
If Denmark can do it so can we. thats not exceptionalism
Thoughts on the consequences of a new European war?
I feel like the dynamic of the discussion will shift feelings away from yes and towards a common threat. Not everyone, but enough to "maybe" put things out of reach.
I was a No, have changed to a Yes in the last couple of years and will remain a Yes as I see our countries as still wanting to tread different paths and I think we should be allowed to do so. I don't think Putin's land grab will change that.
I would think little difference. There is little appetite IMO north of the border for going around pretending to be billy bigbaws and pretending we are a big player in the world.
Politically Scotland is now so far apart from England & Wales that we're already like two different countries, and I don't see this changing.
May will no doubt see another exercise which demonstrates we've had enough.
I feel like the dynamic of the discussion will shift feelings away from yes and towards a common threat.
Like the UK’s Armed Force’s dependence on recruitment north of the border? Sadly, there’s some in the military that will welcome this as the prospect of conflict drives up recruitment. Particularly when those flag-waving patriots realise that the ‘days of empire’ mean we have the smallest Army in over 200 years and no pink bits on the map to force people into conscription?
The biggest threat has been the dark money flowing from the east into London and corrupting those in Whitehall, particularly in the Conservative and Unionist party and their dawning realisation they’ve been ‘played’. They’ve done well putting their stooges such as Johnson and Trump into high office as the resulting chaos has served their agenda well.
I would think little difference.
It’s fair to say you are more confident than me. I’m not certain what impact it will all have at all.
I would think little difference. There is little appetite IMO north of the border for going around pretending to be billy bigbaws and pretending we are a big player in the world.
I would suggest that we are demonstrating that we aren't.
As for the independence discussion I'm sure now the oil and gas price is at a historic high the voices to grab the opportunity to push for a binding vote quickly whilst the numbers add up will get very loud
As for the independence discussion I’m sure now the oil and gas price is at a historic high the voices to grab the opportunity to push for a binding vote quickly whilst the numbers add up will get very loud
Let's be clear, all but the most staunch indy campaigners don't expect Indy to be an overnight thing - so grabbing it whilst prices are briefly high isn't credible. The only people I've heard mentioning oil and indy in the same sentence in the last 5 years are Unionists still arguing against a 2014 campaign. Whether its COP26, the Green tie up, or just climate change in general it's clear that the less rabid of the Indy movement have shifted their energy policies away from oil. I think given many Scottish Voters probably couldn't draw Ukraine on a map, never mind connect how war = high oil prices = more money for treasury = potentially improved standard of living in the UK, I think the debate around domestic utility bills in a part of the UK with such renewables resources is more likely to resonate as the price of oil impacts peoples pockets directly.
Let’s be clear, all but the most staunch indy campaigners don’t expect Indy to be an overnight thing –
What year is the SNP proposing for a new binding referendum? Announcement within weeks apparently
I'd like to think that the Brexit debacle untangling ourself from Europe would make people question the practicalities of independence. The EU exit has convinced me even more (here in England) that we would be stronger together, and how promises of money and funding made to deliver votes don't deliver when it matters.
Sadly the attitude and incompetence of the Whitehall government and the more measured responses from Sturgeon must be adding support to the Indy campaign, and if I was north of the border I may well have a different view
Politically Scotland is now so far apart from England & Wales
Bear in mind that whilst Wales might be in the same jurisdiction it is very different to England politically.
Sadly the attitude and incompetence of the Whitehall government and the more measured responses from Sturgeon must be adding support to the Indy campaign, and if I was north of the border I may well have a different view
It's the Andy Burnham effect, you can make lots of noises on issues outside your responsibilities and sound very good. When you have the civil servants giving you the detailed analysis of the impact of various decisions life gets a lot harder. Sturgeon's record on core devolved issues is poor, education, health, etc she wants to spend more but that's easy to say when you don't get blamed for tax rises
Bear in mind that whilst Wales might be in the same jurisdiction it is very different to England politically.
There are substantial differences all across the UK, the homogeneous "England" so hated doesn't exist except in the minds of those who are trying to carve out a separate identity so as not to be tainted by decisions they don't like
The biggest threat has been the dark money flowing from the east into London and corrupting those in Whitehall
Lets not pretend some of that money hasn't undoubtedly made it's way up here as well.