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Yup - anecdotaly compliance has been better up here despite more severe restictions
Interesting
Monica lennon ( candidate to lead labour in Scotland) is open to a second referendum
Presumably that means she will be cast out for Heresy
I'm not convinced she was ever in with a realistic chance of the post against the son of millionaire Chaudhry Mohammad Sarwar.
scotroutes
It’s easier to hide lack of progress with a tunnel.
I think you underestimate Boris's sagacity.
He's already aware that the explosives for the necessary blasting are already in place in the Beaufort Dyke.
A million tons, I read somewhere.
I'm not sure of the purpose of the 25,000 or so tons of mustard and phosgene munitions though. Perhaps to finish off the fishing industry?
With his duties reduced, Gove is expected to step up work strengthening the ties between the countries of the United Kingdom as head of the Cabinet Office “union unit” in the run-up to elections in May, the Guardian understands. “There will be more focus on it,” one No 10 source said.
Johnson himself holds the position of minister for the union but had previously been urged to create a dedicated role to respond to growing support for Scottish independence as well as tensions in Northern Ireland.
Another gift for NS from Boris because Gove telling the Scots we are better in the Union will go down well (odious little -----)
🙂
Another gift for NS from Boris because Gove telling the Scots we are better in the Union will go down well (odious little —–)
The thought process is probably about having a Scotsman living and working in England campaigning for the Union to offset all those Englishmen living and working in Scotland campaigning for iS
As for Gove's personal qualities he has his fans and his detractors. I'm sure they are all put aside on Burn's night.
Johnson himself holds the position of minister for the union but had previously been urged to create a dedicated role growing support for Scottish independence as well as tensions in Northern Ireland.
FIFY
I’m sure they are all put aside on Burn’s night.
Absolutely.
<you have seen the Wicker Man, right?>
Dont you ever get tired of trolling and trying to wind me up with snide references BIg and Daft? You really do look foolish you know. Still - it gives me someone to laugh at which is not to be sneezed at in these times
It's OK, it's all in hand as knowledge of Scotland only discretionary for job in Gove's 'Union Unit' in Whitehall:
That'll suit the mandarins of Whitehall fine who in my experience tend to go a bit funny when they venture further north than the midlands.
That is just the most westminster "unionist" thing ever isn't it.
Interesting on Lewis's departure
There's a certain element of Leavers that would be quite happy for Scotland to leave the UK ( any comments session on the BBC quickly descends into attacks on Sturgeon & wishes for Scotland to go)
I wonder if Lewis was in that camp or just clashed with the Allegra Stratton/Spectator PR op being run from No.10
So the Strurgeon/Salmond thing has legs
Im not convinced it will dent the SNPs vote that much, by May it will be chip paper?
meanwhile, Im not sure the tories in scotland quite get how this indy thing works
meanwhile in No.10 I think they may be realising that just slapping down a 2nd ref is counter productive
Salmond has lost the plot IMO
His ego is taking him to places he really should not be going. His admitted behaviour during the trial was abhorrent. I think his issue is he is such a dinosaur that he does not understand the effect of a big powerful ( both physical and politically) man pressuring women.
Yes his accusers overegged the pudding and again IMO built up the accusations to criminal when they may not have been but the idea that the whole thing was simply a conspiracy against him is pure paranoia
I think it will cause a loss of votes but I do not think Salmond will get the support from the electorate that he thinks he will
Salmond really is an odious toad.
met him once at the airport when he was the FM. Really did not like being in his company, I really felt uncomfortable about his body language and his leering at women in the group.
Just a media frenzy created by the Tories / Unionists because they don’t actually have any policies to address the electorate because they know that Boris, Gove etc are pretty toxic. The whole thing will fizzle out with no / minimum consequences.
Dovebiker - I am not so sure about that. There would seem to be various factions infighting / power stuggling over a variety of issues and some of those groups are using the Salmond situation to exert leverage
I have issues over some Scottish people believing that Scotland shouldn't be a country. Just can't fathom it. Especially with the argument that the UK should be a country in its own right, and not subject to the whims of the EU.
It's probably better for the 4 nations to be 4 nations.
Dynati
there are some people like my family that have connections both sides of the boarder. I myself had big doubts about abandoning my friends in the north of England to the tender mercies of the tories ( but no longer)
The other main strand I have seen is forces people. they felt it a betrayal of those they had fought alongside.
right or wrong these views have some validity to the people expressing them
Dynati
Hyphenated please lol.
Heavens sake, nobody is suggesting we rebuild Hadrian's wall and man it with machine guns every 50m. Just the Scotland be what it always has been but legally and not some other county of England.
I think missed nuance again - I was just giving two of the main reasons I have heard that make some sense from people who are doubtful about independence ( I did not include the nonsensical too small too poor too stupid)
Because of my own doubts I had a lot of conversations with a lot of people from different backgrounds before finally voting YES
Really interesting analysis of the polls including everyone's favourite pollster John curtice here
https://www.podbean.com/media/player/k6fyd-fbe0b0-pb?vjs=1
If Scotland did gain independence and then membership of Europe, would the country assume/expect to be treated in relations with England the same as France etc or would there be some expectation of some kind of special relationship with England because of the land border and the practical difficulty of any 'conscious uncoupling.'
Thanks
mrsheen
Free Member
If Scotland did gain independence and then membership of Europe, would the country assume/expect to be treated in relations with England the same as France etc or would there be some expectation of some kind of special relationship with England because of the land border and the practical difficulty of any ‘conscious uncoupling.’Thanks
Would more than likely be on the same terms as france. Which is why we should have a serious discussion about it before committing to anything.
EU membership shouldn't be taken as a given.
If Scotland did gain independence and then membership of Europe, would the country assume/expect to be treated in relations with England
Call me crazy,naive or just plain deluded, but I've kind of considered England's only hope is if Scotland becomes independent, then rejoins the EU and allows England to work through us for EU markets, kind of like making brexit that is brexit in name only.
Of course we'd need to placate the Scottish unionists, who would no doubt look to cause trouble.
I think what happens with NI will be important for an Indy Scotland, it could well end up with something more like Mays deal & CU membership after a few years , which would make things a lot smoother between England & Scotland , even if not whatever process & tech is eventually used to smooth the rUK NI issues will be easily applicable to Scotland
Ultimately it will depend who is in westminster, looking at whats happened since Brexit, the tories will happily try & blame everything on Scotland & adopt a policy of deliberately stoking division to boost populist supprt in England
would the country assume/expect to be treated in relations with England the same as France etc or would there be some expectation of some kind of special relationship with England because of the land border
In 2014 the independence side talked a lot about close links, friends over the border and so on and clearly would be looking for some sort of closer relationship
However the unionists torpedoed this with their scorched earth policy
so IMO it would depend very much on how Westminster acted and who was in power. It could be like the velvet divorce or it could be an utter shitshow
tjagain
Full Memberso IMO it would depend very much on how Westminster acted and who was in power. It could be like the velvet divorce or it could be an utter shitshow
Yep. And tbh the only sane way for the ruk to handle it is the velvet divorce, it's massively better for all concerned. But brexit proves that sanity isn't neccesarily a motivator and that you can't assume that westminster will do what's in the UK's own interest if they think they can spin it better if they choose a self-harming route. So much of the last indy campaign was based on "We expect this to be the outcome because it's the only option that makes any sense" and that ought to be the case but it's not.
This is obviously a good reason to want independence, but it's also a pretty big concern. Weird that Westminster can weaken the case for independence by running the country really badly.
Call me crazy,naive or just plain deluded, but I’ve kind of considered England’s only hope is if Scotland becomes independent, then rejoins the EU and allows England to work through us for EU markets, kind of like making brexit that is brexit in name only.
Deluded
The EU will act to protect the single market. That means day 1 iS is a third country in respect of the EU-UK trading agreement and rules of origin.
If and when iS joins the EU there will be a EU single market border.
No-one has given a realistic scenario where there won't be a border.
The first priority of the proto iS government will be the iS-rUK agreement, how much bandwidth will there be to negotiate in parallel with the EU? It's a foreseeable risk that iS is unable to conclude both and so has to choose a priority. Issues such as tripartite regulatory alignment, iS state aid rules etc etc all will eat negotiating time.
In 2014 the independence side talked a lot about close links, friends over the border and so on and clearly would be looking for some sort of closer relationship
However the unionists torpedoed this with their scorched earth policy
so IMO it would depend very much on how Westminster acted and who was in power. It could be like the velvet divorce or it could be an utter shitshow
It's not 2014, UK has left the EU. The nature of the EU-UK trade agreement means a hard border. Westminster is only one party in the matter. Westminster as the only bogeyman is kidding yourselves, the EU will want to make sure the single market is protected, iS is outside that and therefore already on the back foot.
The EU will only make vaguely friendly noises until there is a section 30 yes vote. Anything else would be a massive diplomatic incident. So no agreements, no formal statements, nothing but vague press briefing. If there is a yes vote then they will turn the thumbscrews as they know any "rejoin" campaign in iS needs the EU more than the EU needs iS.
Anyone arguing for "rejoin" has to tackle the currency and fiscal rules issues. What currency, when is it adopted, how fast are you complying with the fiscal rules?
If it's not on the ballot paper as part of the "yes" campaign then it's already at least one parliamentary term away.
I think what happens with NI will be important for an Indy Scotland, it could well end up with something more like Mays deal & CU membership after a few years , which would make things a lot smoother between England & Scotland , even if not whatever process & tech is eventually used to smooth the rUK NI issues will be easily applicable to Scotland
Your massive unstated presumption is that iS rejoins the EU. Is that on the indyref2 ballot paper?
Your massive unstated presumption is that iS rejoins the EU. Is that on the indyref2 ballot paper?
I shoulve quoted it, but I thought it was obvious I was replying to mrsheen's question as were all the posts above mine!
Maybe not. But Britain being out of the EU is a major reason why support for Independence has grown. So what would be the point of a yes vote if it didn’t mean reversing Brexit for Scotland?
But Britain being out of the EU is a major reason why support for Independence has grown
Agreed, curtice chats about it in the podcast I linked to
Realistically, Brexit + Sturgeons far more grown up handling of covid crisis means that an SNP majority is very likely come May (salmonds egowar not withstanding) EU membership is a bit of a distraction and at last another term away that B&D, Andrew Neil etc have got hung up on.
What really matters is what happens when/if Johnson says no to the next ref
Its SNP policy that we rejoin the EU.
I think you are very muddled here BnD
firstly your post is full of your opinion stated as fact. Secondly you conflate the SNP, the Scottish Government and the wider independence movement and finally you continue to ask things that have no answer at this time
You also keep asking us to give a definite answer to questions that can only be answered by the first post independence government
Maybe not. But Britain being out of the EU is a major reason why support for Independence has grown. So what would be the point of a yes vote if it didn’t mean reversing Brexit for Scotland?
Because yes I agree getting back into Europe would seem to be the best way to go, however since the brexit vote it is now very apparent that what Scotland wants and what England wants are poles apart and some (myself included) would just prefer that the Scots choose which way the country goes.
Its SNP policy that we rejoin the EU.
So it's SNP policy to have the iS-rUK border rules set by the EU?
So it’s SNP policy to have the iS-rUK border rules set by the EU?
Yep that follows
But then it's exactly the situation that Westminster agreed for NI
And I'm fairly sure that NI was told it simply meant the best of both worlds 😉
There's no time frame on that though & far more pressing is what happens if the SNP get a majority in May, in that case there's a constitutional showdown coming & EU membership is just noise in that regards
There’s no time frame on that though & far more pressing is what happens if the SNP get a majority in May, in that case there’s a constitutional showdown coming & EU membership is just noise in that regards
+1
So, what's the best way to vote in May if you're an independence supporter - both votes SNP, or does it depend which constituency etc?
So, what’s the best way to vote in May if you’re an independence supporter – both votes SNP, or does it depend which constituency etc?
constituency vote SNP, list vote green
The SNP are making a big push for list votes but its basically a wasted vote. they will gain so many constituency seats that list seats will be unlikely. The greens are pro independence and I want a green presence and a strong one in Holyrood. The SNP are very weak on environmental issues. the greens will gain seats on far smaller numbers of list votes than the SNP will because they are unlikely to get any constituency seats
I would also look at the candidates. For example my SNP MSP is a good guy, my SNP MP is a complete wally , a liar and useless and I could never vote for her. also beware the gender recognition fundamentalists. A very nasty bunch hanging on the coat tails of the SNP to promote a extreme view and who label anyone with doubts transphobes. They need their wings clipped
I have never voted SNP in the past but probably will lend them my vote this time because IMO the need for independence is so great.
Constituency vote SNP, list vote green
So, what’s the best way to vote in May if you’re an independence supporter – both votes SNP, or does it depend which constituency etc?
Constituency matters. There are very few in which the SNP stand any chance of gaining another seat. I expect that the new Indy parties will come to some sort of alliance not to contend against each other in regional seats, so you'll be faced with a choice of ISP or AFI.
Are these new indy supporting parties actually going to happen scotroutes? Seems a bit like gaming the systemand could lead to reduced green representation and even reduced pro indy support which I am not in favour of. Splitting the vote?
ISP and AFI are both registered political parties.
The Wings Over Scotland guy got the message and isn't standing
But he doesn't seem to be the SNP's biggest fan
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-fall-of-saigon/
I think Boris will not give a section 30 or awill delay giving it for several months. The key might be to get a majority of the popular vote for independence supporting parties. However I doubt even that will move Boris sufficiently. I'll be voting both votes SNP in the Highlands but like Scotroutes says there are many regions where the the SNP are very unlikely to pick up list seats. I wish that both AFI and ISP had moved faster and gotten a higher profile. I say this as an SNP activist who is in the party for independence and that alone. Otherwise I'd be voting for the Greens
big_n_daft
Free Member
The Wings Over Scotland guy got the message and isn’t standingBut he doesn’t seem to be the SNP’s biggest fan
I think you're the only guy left reading him tbh. 😆
Not from the comments, I think he's worked out that he'll make more as a blogger than a candidate who lives in Bath.
I think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues. The fiasco that is unrolling shows that the checks and balances aren't working and something needs to change. I'm sure that the SNP will chuck petrol on the grievance bonfire to retain their relatively unchecked power as the party of government at Holyrood.
think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues.
They do not have the power to do so. Jeepers.
big_n_daft
Free Member
Not from the comments, I think he’s worked out that he’ll make more as a blogger than a candidate who lives in Bath.I think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues. The fiasco that is unrolling shows that the checks and balances aren’t working and something needs to change. I’m sure that the SNP will chuck petrol on the grievance bonfire to retain their relatively unchecked power as the party of government at Holyrood.
Or sturgers will skelp them all about the shop next week! 😆 Wonder if she'll get 5 hours of uninterrupted live coverage in bbc news tae!
The tory media think they are on to a winner eh? 😆
I think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues.
Haha
You really think Johnson would be that stupid?
That would be the biggest win Sturgeon could imagine: Westminster muscling in to dictate to holyrood how to run itself
Especially when Johnsons government has been ruled unlawful by supreme Court when he lied to queen, Jenrick & Patel broke ministerial code, Hancock just broke the law.
The hypocrisy would be ambrosia to the SNP
Sturgeon would love to see Westminster step in & gift her even more support!
Honestly there's no way even Johnson is daft enough to try that
Meanwhile, in the real world the Internal Market Bill brings far more votes to the SNP than salmonds ego war costs them
list vote green
What if your Green candidate is a complete fruit loop? Much as I support them as a party many of their politicians are sadly lacking in either critical thinking or credibility.
That means day 1 iS is a third country in respect of the EU-UK trading agreement and rules of origin.
Is that fact or opinion?
They are better than they were squirrelking but somewhat anti nuclear 🙂
Westminster does simply not have the power to alter the devolution settlement unilaterally as far as I am aware.
They do not have the power to do so. Jeepers.
Holyrood was set up by Westminster, it can be reformed by Westminster. The current debacle with the Crown Office run by a Holyrood cabinet minister dictating what can and can't be published (documents that are already public domain) in an attempt to restrict the scope of 2 inquiries into the executive. At the same time threatening legal action if someone discusses in Holyrood the redacted elements that are public domain.
Any Westminster driven change would be about reinforcing the independent structures. If people think that it's all anti SNP they need to look in the mirror as that says more about them than anything.
Holyrood could come forward itself with the proposals but it won't as the executive will always seek to justify its hold on the levers of power.
It won't change the number of seats in Hollyrood, it won't change boundaries, it won't change devolved powers
"Is that fact or opinion?"
It's the default position
In regard to the status the EU affords iS on day one, it's not in the EU (yet or maybe never), it's not a party to the rUK-EU agreement, it therefore has the status in that agreement of "third country" in regard to rules of origin. I would argue that is the default position. If iS can negotiate something different with both EU and rUK then all well and good but that is subject to negotiation with the EU. As we all remember with Brexit the promises of those campaigning are not always delivered.
Unless iS pulls off a massive deal ahead of day 1 combining it's UK and EU relationships it drops into the default position in regard to the rUK-EU deal. There still can be a deal iS-rUK but it won't change this issue for rUK EU trade
Or do you think it's different? Unicorns perhaps?
Westminster does simply not have the power to alter the devolution settlement unilaterally as far as I am aware.
The deputy speaker of the House of Commons (a Scot) thinks that Westminster can reach in and do something. Holyrood is the creation of the Westminster parliament.
If people think that it’s all anti SNP they need to look in the mirror as that says more about them than anything.
You're missing the point entirely
It's not anti snp, it's Westminster reversing devolution (see also IMB) That is exactly what any indy campaigners would sell it as & they would like Westminster to do so, as it galvanises their support.
But even Johnson has realised (or been told what to think by more capable advisors) that approach is counterproductive
He / she is a dimwit then
Really dude - if you want to comment on stuff have some basic understanding.
The Scotland act that sets up the scottish parliament makes it absolutely clear that the consent of both Westminster and holyrood is needed to alter it
Edit - so you claim this is so - how about something to back it up? I assume yo are talking about the politicing / trouble making from Liam Fox.
So - lets see you evidence that the deputy speaker of Westminster said they can intervene and the parts of the act that allow this
Put up or shut up
It’s not anti snp, it’s Westminster reversing devolution (see also IMB) That is exactly what any indy campaigners would sell it as & they would like Westminster to do so, as it galvanises their support.
Not really if it's about sorting out the check and balances on the executive but thank you for proving my point. Separation of the prosecutor from the executive is a fundamental part of the E&W system.
So – lets see you evidence that the deputy speaker of Westminster said they can intervene and the parts of the act that allow this
The relevant quote is in Hansard, CBA to search, I didn't say she was right but she is probably a better authority than me although probably trumped by your Googlefu.
I would suggest a pragmatic reform to sort out the checks and balances issue could be initiated by Westminster and discussed by a Holyrood committee and a jointly agreed change made. It's not about Westminster reaching in to oversee it's about fixing a problem that has arisen, only the myopic would argue there isn't a issue that need attention.
Or as already exhibited it will be jumped upon by the false grievance bandwagon and riden for all it's worth.
Put up or shut up
Trying to stifle debate?
Again.
Especially when Johnsons government has been ruled unlawful by supreme Court when he lied to queen, Jenrick & Patel broke ministerial code, Hancock just broke the law.
The hypocrisy would be ambrosia to the SNP
You have just shown that the UK executive checks and balances work. The Supreme Court were able to reverse an action. Thanks for giving a good example.
The word hypocrisy implies the SNP doing the same you accuse the UK government of. Do you actually want to use that word?
You have just shown that the UK executive checks and balances work. The Supreme Court were able to reverse an action. Thanks for giving a good example.
Eh? And despite clear breaches of the ministerial code no MP, johnson, Jenrick, Patel, Hancock... had to resign.....
Infact its perfectly fine for ministers to break the law https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/26/justice-secretary-defends-matt-hancock-over-breach-of-law
The word hypocrisy implies the SNP doing the same you accuse the UK government of. Do you actually want to use that word?
And again you are missing the realpolitik of this
Westminster stepping in to reform holyrood will be the perfect way for Sturgeon to deflect attention, that would become the story & a further rallying call for indy
Which is why even Johnson isn't daft enough to do it
Big and daft - you made a claim its up to you to give something to back it up
Westminster does not have the power to do anything to holyrood. Its enshrined in the act.
only the myopic would argue there isn’t a issue that need attention.
What is this issue?
I would suggest a pragmatic reform to sort out the checks and balances issue could be initiated by Westminster and discussed by a Holyrood committee and a jointly agreed change made.
Yes that is how it works but you missed it would also have to pass a vote in both houses. Westminster cannot unilaterally alter the scotland act.
On another scottish topic and it might as well go here:
Sarwar becomes Scottish labour leader. No chance of any significant gains for labour in Scotland then as he is a big proponent of "the SNP are the enemy" and the "bain principle" while happy to cosy up to the tories.
Lennon would have been so much better but electing Sarwar means further retreat into irrelevance. Sarwar is mainly interested in a power base in Scottish labour not spreading the word wider. I am disappointed but not surprised
So far as I can see Westminster can close down Holyrood if it chooses to. It would need an act of Parliament to do so rather than just a change of UK government policy. Consent from Holyrood would be nice but it's not required. Westminster or this current govt is already ripping holes in the Scotland Act by retaining powers that were legally devolved although in practice operated by the EU. Holyrood did not consent to Westminster reclaiming those powers but this made no difference at all.
Seem to be a lot of people banking on Boris to do the right thing and use some intelligence.
Oh dear Oh dear Oh dear.......
Yes that is how it works but you missed it would also have to pass a vote in both houses. Westminster cannot unilaterally alter the scotland act.
Neither can Holyrood
What is this issue?
Starter for 10
Crown Office led by a Holyrood executive cabinet member restricting the Scottish Parliament from publishing information that is already legally in the public domain.
Unless iS pulls off a massive deal ahead of day 1 combining it’s UK and EU relationships it drops into the default position in regard to the rUK-EU deal.
Ah, so there is a way we drop out of the UK and straight into the EU - thanks for clearing that up.
Ah, so there is a way we drop out of the UK and straight into the EU – thanks for clearing that up.
Not what I said, I was talking about turning the UK-EU agreement into a iS-EU-rUK agreement.
The day 1 entry of iS into the EU would be best described as a Unicorn, should iS be able to pull off this feat then iS would not need a iS-rUK trading agreement as Brussels has a current arrangement and border checks and customs paperwork are already settled.
Unlikely as the EU will want to understand iS position and that won't be known until sometime after independance based on the negotiating practices of Westminster during Brexit.
Crown Office led by a Holyrood executive cabinet member restricting the Scottish Parliament from publishing information that is already legally in the public domain.
Crown office decisions are politically independent.
That info is NOT in the public domain. Its subject to a court order from a judge that it NOT be published as the complainants could be identified from it. So what the Crown office did was enforce the trial judges decision. correct in law. Now another judge could order the publication but the crown office did the right thing
Neither can Holyrood
Correct. Who sid they could? do you now accept that Westminster does not have the power?
ps - I have read the reports on the exchange with the deputy speaker and Liam fox and the deputy speaker does not say what you claimed
Once again - base your argument on fact not on what you want and do not give your opinions as fact.
big_n_daft
I think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues.
Oh, yes please.
That is just the right sort of crisis to trigger the Scottish govt using the Claim of Right to announce independence.
Dissolve the devolved govt and reopen the Scottish Parliament.
Be a bit messy, but that didn't stop the Iron Curtain countries.