Actually the Italian thing really is quite visible. I'd be curious to see some numbers on that as I'm sure my perception is distorted by my propensity for Italian food.
Anyway, I'm sure we'll get back to the threads core activity of taking turns to shout at people who aren't listening very soon.
I was brought up with Italian "aunties & uncles". I was probably the first/only person in my street who knew how to make a decent pasta sauce 🙂 The POW thing was certainly true for them as they settled here and brought their families over.
My Nan was one of nine siblings, I don't have the energy to about that!
Mine one of 11 piemaster, all Indian from Bangalore btw.
Haven't caught up on the thread yet but this hesdline from Huffungton Post jumped out at me
Nicola Sturgeon: I Can’t Give Answers On Currency, Economy Or Europe For An Independent Scotland
She also admitted the vote could be held after Brexit
She can't give the answers because the unit of experts she has set up to provide the answers have not reported yet. 🙄
Best to wait for the experts to give a range of options that are watertight and add up rather than making off the cuff policy?
another of the difference that you don't understand and we like - she does not pretend to have all the answers to everything to hand. We like this honesty. Davison has tapped into ( or had until recently) this liking wehave for honest answers to things and admitting she don't know everything - a large part of the reason for her popularity IMO.
[quote=tjagain ]She can't give the answers because the unit of experts she has set up to provide the answers have not reported yet.
Best to wait for the experts to give a range of options that are watertight and add up rather than making off the cuff policy?
another of the difference that you don't understand and we like - she does not pretend to have all the answers to everything to hand. We like this honesty.
But why should she need answers, surely a brave march into the unknown is the gold standard for all referendums now? I mean, we're fed up listening to experts!
LOL @ Scotroutes
And on the date - she is outflanking May again by appearing reasonable and flexible and making the debate about timing not about having one at all. Really smart because its now accepted there will be one just the date to settle
Sturgeon seems to be getting more of the treatment usually reserved for Tories with paper's like The Independent choosing deliberately unflattering photos.
[img] 
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I reckon if we get independence, Scotland will win the world cup, we'll end up as the financial capital of the world, Hollywood will move lock stock and barrel to Dalkeith, temperatures will rise 20 degrees, and I'll get a pump at Taylor Swift. Easy.
**** it, blatant lies and utter shite talk swung it fir Brexit, if ye canny beat them....
Sturgeon seems to be getting more of the treatment usually reserved for Tories with paper's like The Independent choosing deliberately unflattering photos.
nah that just coz so many torries genuinely do look like aliens, can you imagine a flattering image of Gove 😉
Dugdale - a complete irrelevance and Davidson was getting too popular so haad to be called to heel by her bosses down south.
Dugdale did show signs of understanding the politics in Scotland but was also put firmly in her place by London. NO one is listening to her now at all.
Their problem is if they talk sense they are at odds with their london bosses. If they agree with their london bosses they talking pish and we can tell the difference.
Currently polling at 14% for labour and 24% for torys compared to the SNPs 51%
Got the greens position on it? As popular as labour in Scotland
Davidson does quite a good job of hiding her revulsion at the brexiter tories, well sometimes 😉
[i]Edinburgh has a very big and strong Italian community. The thought is the driver for this was the fact there was a large POW camp for Italians near Edinburgh and many of them never went home - thus you had the core of an immigrant community here so more came to join it. We have almost all our fish and chip shops run by folk of Italian descent. One shop proudly proclaims " Traditional Italian fish and chips" which always makes me laugh[/I]
Economic refugees, initially in the 1890's, same into South Wales. Most would've gone into mining originally I would imagine.
She can't give the answers because the unit of experts she has set up to provide the answers have not reported yet.
Is this because the Book of Dreams was tripe?
According to the SNP plan iS would exit prior to Brexit so the paradigm is very similar to that proposed in 2014
Or is "everything's changed so we want a referendum in a bit so we have time to work up a new plan for an iS because the last one is tripe" the reality of the SNP position?
The story of Italian immigrants provides one of the more shameful episodes in modern Scottish history.
http://www.ed.ac.uk/history-classics-archaeology/diaspora-studies/research/research-projects/italians-scotland
Big and daft - could the SNP do anything you would agree with?
Its obvious the economic argeument has changed so requires new answers
Sturgeon seems to be getting more of the treatment usually reserved for Tories with paper's like The Independent choosing deliberately unflattering photos.
Could be Unioist bias from the press but more likely youll find that that is the treatment usually reserved for women.
Big and daft - could the SNP do anything you would agree with?
Of course there probably is, i imagine that there are competent people in the team making boring but important decisions well on some issues
Its obvious the economic argeument has changed so requires new answers
So the solutions will be different in v2 of the Book of Dreams?
who knows? People who know about this stuff are looking at it now. How could I possibly predict?
competent. Very. Best government of any flavour I have seen in my lifetime. NO major blunders, done a load of good stuff.
BTW - saying "book of dreams" shows two thing. One you are totally biased and 2) you have a closed mind
@Gordimhor, thank you for the link. I'll take a better look at the topic later today when I'm supposed to be at work.
Interestingly the numbers given in that link, 30,000 in Scotland out of 220,000 puts the Scottish population a little above average but not dramatically so. Hard to believe the remaining 190,000 are all in South Wales. Must do some more digging around as I'm intrigued now. I note that's an Italian embassy sourced figure, is that ex-pat only?
Piemonster I was really looking for a blog I read some time ago, the personal stories of Italians in Leith I think when the policy of interment was implemented. I couldn't find that so opted for the link above. I don't know about the figures for certain, wiki says there is no official record but estimates between 30000-100000. Not much use.
One of the people interned from Leith was Eduardo Paolozzi
[url= http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/play-sparks-debate-over-whether-italians-deserve-apology-for-wartime-internment-1-1232631 ]Internment of Italians[/url]
Its interesting that so many of them stayed on after the war. That link certainly opposes the generally held view that the Italians were well treated which is why they stayed after the war.
Paollozzi stayed on and left artworks to the city
Lots of Italians around here, Troon and Largs in particular. Common thinking was that they either didn't make it to the states, or just liked the area.
Possibly an urban myth...
TJ this might go some way to explain why they stayed after the war. Basically many had been here for a long time.
[url= http://www.glasgowwestend.co.uk/people/internmentitalianfromglasgow.php ]An Italian from the west end[/url]
The writer does seem to like question marks.
It seems there was also a campaign to whip up resentment. From the same blog
Creating Public OpinionThanks to the pioneering contemporary social survey inquiry, Mass Observation, it is possible to gauge the impact of the press during the spring and summer of 1940. The survey was carried out to measure general attitudes towards the issue of aliens under the then umbrella term of the ?Fifth Column?. Reporting in April 1940 it stated that the majority of Britons did not even know what the phrase meant. Detailed interviews in London and the west coast of Scotland revealed that less than one person in a hundred suggested that aliens ought to be interned en masse. When the survey was repeated in middle of May, however, weeks of intensive press campaigning had clearly had an impact with the survey?s author, Tom Harrison, suggesting in the New Statesman of July 1940 that, ?many people who a month before were inclined to be tolerant of aliens were now almost pogrom minded?.
@Nobeer They stayed for the weather 😀
Thanks for that gordimhor
Its always nice to add to knowledge especially when its correcting a misapprehension
Yes, another thanks from me Gordimhor
Reading through what there is on wiki does lead back to what we need to address to attract migrants.
From wiki;
According to the 2011 UK Census, there were 131,195 Italian-born residents in England, 3,424 in Wales,[35] 6,048 in Scotland,[36] and 538 in Northern Ireland.[37]
Suggests that despite existing communities new Italian migrants aren't choosing Scotland. And it'd be really interesting to see a breakdown of why those that did come chose to do so.
It could be a case that Scotland was the destination for family/partner reasons and less for economic reasons? It might not, just pondering.
big_n_daft - Member
Its obvious the economic argument has changed so requires new answers
So the solutions will be different in v2 of the Book of Dreams?
Can see you're going to be giving it a fair, un-biased appraisal! 😆
It's a shame this page doesn't give references, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Scots
Not seeing to which census they are referring too? That text brings up a lot of Google hits, but it looks like people are referencing and unreferenced wiki article.
Cheers Tja and Piemonster . I was trying to find a figure for the Italian diaspora in Scotland but can't .
Family and regional connections (in Italy) may have been important at one time.
There was an article in The Herald which claimed a rise in immigration to Scotland from Italy then.[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13138869.Scotland_is_immigrant_choice_for_a_new_Italian_connection/ ]Italian immigration to Scotland 2014[/url]
I might say there has been such a "material change in circumstances" since then that I am not sure the article is still relevant. So at the risk of dragging the thread back " on topic"
One thing a Scottish Government would do if it was within it's powers is protect the rights of EU citizens currently resident here. Another could be to restore Post Study Work Visas.
[url= http://www.universities-scotland.ac.uk/campaigns/post-study-work-for-international-students/ ]Come to study,stay to work[/url]
seosamh77 - MemberCan see you're going to be giving it a fair, un-biased appraisal!
TBF, I re-read a lot of V1 last night and it is mostly fanciful horseshite. Book of dreams is actually very apt!
sbob - Member
TBF, I re-read a lot of V1 last night
really? 😆 sounds like a fab night!
*Lots of Italian families in my neck of the woods, I remember being told they originally came over for the brickworks, though I couldn't verify.
I could certainly rattle off at least half a dozen Italian surnames from my school years.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_UK_locations_with_large_ethnic_minority_populations ]*Actual, demonstrable lots, not the fanciful Edinburgh type.[/url]
sounds like a fab night!
On death's door, needed an easy read to distract me from my ails.
I remember being told they originally came over for the brickworks
This would mirror what happened in Bedford very closely.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/jan/23/britishidentity.features113
But if there was IndyRef2 before Brexit, what is the point of that going to be ?
Scotland will be out of its own as an independant country, not part of the UK and not part of Europe either - so it will face trade tarrifs to trade with both the UK and Europe - and the UK is a much larger percentage of that trade.
All this IndyRef2 stuff is doing is to cause uncertainty and make the UKs position before Brexit look even worse.
It is just devisive on the part of the SNP.
And stupid, it could well cause the UKs position after brexit to be much worse, which will drag Scotlands position down with it, and so if Scotland were then to gain independance it will also be in a worse position when trying to negotiate entry back into the EU.
The timetable of events is just plain wrong and May is quite right to try to shut the discussion down. All Sturgeon is doing is playing a game.
All this IndyRef2 stuff is doing is to cause uncertainty and make the UKs position before Brexit look even worse.
Is that possible? Johnson/Fox/Davies romping around looking confused and unprepared, May terrified of offering parliament any input, but rushing over to hold hands with the least popular US president because Brexit has made us so desperate.
It's inevitable that Scotland will leave and Ireland reunite, why should we negotiate as a nation that won't even exist in a few years time...?
The prospect of being out of the EU and in the UK is not attractive. There will be cuts to come as a result of brexit.We have a right wing government writing their own version of the human rights act and cosying up President Trump. I for one am very concerned about any deal, trade or otherwise UK makes with his administration.
[i]Scotland will be out of its own as an independant country, not part of the UK and not part of Europe either - so it will face trade tarrifs to trade with both the UK and Europe - and the UK is a much larger percentage of that trade[/I]
Says who?
Apparently according to the Brexiters all this trade and negotiation stuff is easy, so we'll be back in the EU and with a better deal with the UK than the one we had before.
Sorted, and with plenty of time for lunch. 😉
piemonster - MemberThis would mirror what happened in Bedford very closely.
Just up the road. 🙂
If Scotland votes for independence before the EU negotiations are up it takes from May one of the few bargaining chips she has - the Scottish fishing waters which have in the past been used as bargaining chips
IMO this is one of the reasons May rejected the call.
It's inevitable that Scotland will leave and Ireland reunite,
In your eyes maybe, but far from definite.
Anyway I'll leave this little read for folk over their lunch:
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/18/aberdeen-oil-price-wrestles-hard-choices-independence ]Guardian - Aberdeen oil price wrestles hard choicesindependence[/url]
Ruth Davidson:
'There is no appetite for Indyref2' Really?
http://www.orcadian.co.uk/online-poll-favour-second-scottish-independence-referendum/
Looks like a pretty solid 67% of their population would like one held.
There is a very strong swell of opinion in this part of the country that more than enough change has taken place since the last one and it is clearly time for a new and decisive referendum.
highlandman - Member
Ruth Davidson:
'There is no appetite for Indyref2' Really?
You'll probably have seen this picture of the respective turnouts for the party conferences in Scotland.
[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3843/33490511576_a15a733e0a_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3843/33490511576_a15a733e0a_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
As good a visual proof as any, and not moderated through any pro or anti filters by a polling company.
And if anyone wants to dispute distortions because of camera angles, rather than argue it here, find a pic that says different and post it.
