MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Bruce – at that point, would it not be easier to say that Scotland/UK no longer represents your interests/lifestyle/desires and apply for citizenship in whichever country it is you have chosen to make your home? It seems like a false argument to say “I should have a say whether a country I don’t live it should do something, so that I can continue to choose not to live in it”.
You're assuming it's easy to get citizenship in all countries. It's not. I've got a couple of options open to me but not everyone will have. Many people will be forced to return home before they are ready.
I was making plans to move back to Scotland in 2016. However, I didn't think it was fair to make my family of 'foreigners' move to a country that was taking a seriously xenophobic turn.
On balance, I think the next referendum should still have the same rules as the previous one. My point is that expats have far more at stake now than last time.
^^^
I’m struggling to understand what any of that has to do with Scottish independence?
Maintaining access to the EU is now one of the key drivers in the Independence argument.
Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn’t be an automatic process for a start.
Scotland wouldn't have to be full EU members to maintain access to the EU. Look at the EFTA countries for a start.
I didn’t think it was fair to make my family of ‘foreigners’ move to a country that was taking a seriously xenophobic turn.
England? thats taken a nasty xenophobic turn. Scotland hasn't
Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn’t be an automatic process for a start.
Not automatic but simple and quick.
BruceWee
Free MembeI was making plans to move back to Scotland in 2016. However, I didn’t think it was fair to make my family of ‘foreigners’ move to a country that was taking a seriously xenophobic turn.
You're living in fantasy land here and are rambling incoherently. This just takes the buscuit. You've literally got everyone here, to a man, saying everyone living in scotland regardless of background should have a vote.
How in the hell is that xenophobic?
There is also currently no such thing as a Scottish citizen, therefore any voting franchise can only include the people that live here, nor a scottish ethnicity that anyone here is trying to promote.
BruceWee
Free Member
^^^
I’m struggling to understand what any of that has to do with Scottish independence?Maintaining access to the EU is now one of the key drivers in the Independence argument.
Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn’t be an automatic process for a start.
Scotland wouldn’t have to be full EU members to maintain access to the EU. Look at the EFTA countries for a start.
I'm confused are you against a Scotland in the EU now?
The hell are you gibbering aboot?
BruceWee
Free Member
Which you won’t have after January?Yes, after January UK expats won’t have an EU passport. Or is that not what you’re asking?
I’m struggling to understand what you are saying here as well.
Let’s try this. You have a job on a project working in Sweden. The project is ending so you start looking around for the next job. You see jobs advertised in Germany, Spain, and Italy but you can’t apply to any of them because they all require EU citizenship. Your project in Sweden ends and you have to go back to the UK because as a non-EU citizen without a job you are not allowed to stay there.
This is the type of scenario I’m talking about. Obviously it’s still not 100% clear what will happen if there is a no-deal Brexit. It could be you get fired from your job in Sweden and kicked out the country immediately.
Even if the WA is ratified it’s not clear if UK citizens will be allowed to move freely between EU countries. Most likely you will be tied to the country you are already in.
Unless the hardest of hard Brexits comes to pass all the UK expats won’t immediately be shipped back to the UK on January 1st. Those of us who don’t secure EU passports will most likely drip back to the UK over the next few years.
Relevance to the independence question? These are UK issues.
You’re living in fantasy land here. You’ve literally got everyone here, to a man, saying everyone living in scotland regardless of background should have a vote.
How in the hell is that xenophobic?
Sorry, I didn't mean Scotland, I meant the UK.
Scotland is not xenophobic but it is currently governed by xenophobes (Westminster, just to be clear).
The point where I decided I wasn't moving back to a Westminster governed Scotland was when I heard government ministers suggesting schools should make lists of foreign born children. That was chilling.
I hope Scotland does the business because I would dearly like to come back.
Thanks for the clarification
BruceWee
Free Member
I hope Scotland does the business because I would dearly like to come back.
Fair enough, but since you don't live here, I don't think you should have a vote on it.
If you read my posts again I think you'll find I'm not actually disagreeing with you about anything substantive. I think the rules of the previous ref should be followed.
My only point is that it's not as black and white as last time and those of us who are currently not living in Scotland have a lot more to lose this time than we did last time.
Not automatic but simple and quick.
Oh I agree, but I don't think I'd be basing career choices on if / when Scotland gets to rejoin the EU
BruceWee
Free Member
seosamh77, have I said something to offend you? I seem to have gotten you worked up.If you read my posts again I think you’ll find I’m not actually disagreeing with you about anything substantive. I think the rules of the previous ref should be followed.
I just wasn't understanding your position, you weren't making sense. I wasn't worked up, just not understanding your position. I kinda get you know. basically you would like a vote in a ref.
Personally, even though you would vote yes. I don't think you should get one. (unless you are on the existing electoral role, or move here pre next ref.)
I think BruceWees point is that he may be deprived of choice.
Personally, even though you would vote yes. I don’t think you should get one. (unless you are on the existing electoral role, or move here pre next ref.)
That would be a change from the previous referendum. Even if you were on the electoral roll you still weren't able to vote. You had to actually be living in Scotland at the time.
Do you think people living abroad who are on the electoral roll should be allowed to vote this time?
England? thats taken a nasty xenophobic turn. Scotland hasn’t
Has it? England welcomes proportionately more than Scotland. If the people of England were so xenophobic you would have thought the reverse would be true
BruceWee
Free Member
Do you think people living abroad who are on the electoral roll should be allowed to vote this time?
Possibly, but time limited though. I'd need to think more about it to take a firm position.
But I know uk rules are you can vote in uk elections up till 15 years after if you were on the electoral roll, but you aren't allowed to vote in devolved or local elections. The latter uk rule would tend to exclude it, as essentially a scottish ref is devolved democracy. I could see an argument for people with recent residency say up to 5 years though. I think 15 years is pushing it.
big_n_daft
Free Member
England? thats taken a nasty xenophobic turn. Scotland hasn’tHas it? England welcomes proportionately more than Scotland. If the people of England were so xenophobic you would have thought the reverse would be true
More to do with point of entry and economic balance than anything else.
Incidentally, I don't think England is overly xenophobic. I do think it has it's issues, but so does every country, including scotland.
The westminster government and a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist. Brexit! Immigration polices etc etc etc. Its utterly disgusting
You’re assuming it’s easy to get citizenship in all countries. It’s not. I’ve got a couple of options open to me but not everyone will have. Many people will be forced to return home before they are ready.
I'm not, although I note its easier to become Swedish (as per your example) than British; and of course not every ex-pat even needs to work to remain where they are (and if there was an entitlement to vote may not be voting in "your" interests). I don't believe we will see anyone forced to return either to the UK or from the UK to the EU, although of course many many elect to return because it is in their own interests to do so.
Scotland is not xenophobic but it is currently governed by xenophobes (Westminster, just to be clear).
The point where I decided I wasn’t moving back to a Westminster governed Scotland was when I heard government ministers suggesting schools should make lists of foreign born children. That was chilling.
You do realise that education (and therefore what teachers make lists of) is a devolved issue, and so the diatribe of a westminster minister is largely irrelevant?
I hope Scotland does the business because I would dearly like to come back.
So to be clear, you were suggesting (although you've now retracted it) that Ex pats should get a vote, because they have a lot at stake, and might "have" to come back if there was a No vote; but if there was a Yes vote you would want to come back? I'm sure you can see why people are confused... (FWIW I'm not sure that ex pats have more to lose/gain now than in 2014 -- one of the uncertainties in '14 was future EU membership; your perspective on those risks may be different from other Ex Pats).
tjagain
Full Member
The westminster government and a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist. Brexit! Immigration polices etc etc etc. Its utterly disgustingPosted 6 minutes ago
What's a fair proportion? 5%, 10%, 50%?
big_n_daft
Please start a separate thread if you are introducing this tripe (see what I did there?)
Yes I saw it - kudos 🙂
But I also started a separate thread a while back. 🙂
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/independence-for-the-north-of-england/
You do realise that education (and therefore what teachers make lists of) is a devolved issue, and so the diatribe of a westminster minister is largely irrelevant?
Currently devolved. I'm assuming nothing.
You do realise that education (and therefore what teachers make lists of) is a devolved issue, and so the diatribe of a westminster minister is largely irrelevant?
I do realise. Nevertheless, to hear a minister spouting such blatantly xenophobic crap was still chilling. You think the UK government's xenophobia is limited to it's education ministry?
So to be clear, you were suggesting (although you’ve now retracted it) that Ex pats should get a vote, because they have a lot at stake, and might “have” to come back if there was a No vote; but if there was a Yes vote you would want to come back? I’m sure you can see why people are confused… (FWIW I’m not sure that ex pats have more to lose/gain now than in 2014 — one of the uncertainties in ’14 was future EU membership; your perspective on those risks may be different from other Ex Pats).
I have at no point on this thread said anything other than I think the rules of the previous referendum should be followed. I haven't retracted anything.
What I have said is that it's easier to make the case that expats should have the vote.
I explained in my first post but I'll reiterate it. In the first referendum expats wouldn't have been affected by the outcome. They would not have been stripped of their UK citizenship and as far as everyone knew the UK was going to stay in the EU.
Now people who are from Scotland but make a living working in various EU countries are going to be directly affected. There are far more jobs available in the EU for EU citizens than there are for non-EU citizens.
On balance, I'm think the rules of the previous referendum should be followed. However, if people want to make the case that you should be allowed to vote if you are on the electoral register as well then that is a valid point and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
I work in a software engineering company with 11 staff. Of them, 3 seem to be followers of Wings Over Scotland. Is this an unusual concentration, or is Wings Over Scotland perhaps more influential than people have been suggesting here?
ChrisL
Full Member
I work in a software engineering company with 11 staff. Of them, 3 seem to be followers of Wings Over Scotland.
You work with loonballs. 😆
I think he's cornered the market for independence supporters who are also terrified of transgender people.
Try asking them what they think of JK Rowling.
Well that's in one way a bit of a pity because mostly they're decent people, but in another way it's a relief as when they get onto the subject of politics it's a full on list of grievances and borderline conspiracy theories. It's not a good look for the cause of Scottish independence.
To be fair, I think Wings did some good work in the run up to the 2014 ref, the wee blue book etc.
But recently he has disappeared down some sort of weird anti SNP, anti trans? black hole. Half his posts are about personal battles he is having with some corrupt organisation or another.
I work in a software engineering company with 11 staff. Of them, 3 seem to be followers of Wings Over Scotland. Is this an unusual concentration, or is Wings Over Scotland perhaps more influential than people have been suggesting here?
Anything else odd about the demographics of your office? I'm guessing thats a young, predominantly male, mostly straight, single, cis-male environment?
Do I think WoS is followed by approximately 27% of the Scottish population? No, I doubt 27% of the Scottish population have even heard of WoS. That said - its probably got more influence in the above demographic than some people here are giving it credit for.
Aye, some of the stuff on there in 2013 was very good indeed, balanced, considered.
Anything but that now, however.
I have at no point on this thread said anything other than I think the rules of the previous referendum should be followed. I haven’t retracted anything.
Well, in fairness, you changed your mind half way through the post you started with this sentence:
I think there is actually an argument to be made that expats should have the vote in this referendum.
I explained in my first post but I’ll reiterate it. In the first referendum expats wouldn’t have been affected by the outcome. They would not have been stripped of their UK citizenship and as far as everyone knew the UK was going to stay in the EU.
Well Better Together would definitely have argued otherwise. They'd have said Scotland won't be in the EU and you'll then have to decide to become "rUKish" rather than apply for any future Scottish passport or lose your rights. Of course you may have chosen to dismiss that as project fear - but in the absence of any firm proposal on Indy Scot's future relationship with the EU is you are guessing that you will have the rights you want. Whilst its clear what the SNPs position is, and the EU are likely to be positive about that there is the major issue of the land border with England which post 1st Jan may present a significant obstacle in any negotiations since it would be outside the EU...
poly
Anything else odd about the demographics of your office? I’m guessing thats a young, predominantly male, mostly straight, single, cis-male environment?Do I think WoS is followed by approximately 27% of the Scottish population? No, I doubt 27% of the Scottish population have even heard of WoS. That said – its probably got more influence in the above demographic than some people here are giving it credit for.
I work for an all-male company with most of us being middle aged. Everyon'e white, cis, most or all are straight, everyone's university educated. The 3 Wings Over Scotland fans are all in their late 40s or early 50s.
Well, in fairness, you changed your mind half way through the post you started with this sentence:
You realise it's possible to see the merit in an argument but on balance decide against it? I know people tend towards absolutes these days but it is possible to see validity in an argument but not agree with the conclusion.
Well Better Together would definitely have argued otherwise. They’d have said Scotland won’t be in the EU and you’ll then have to decide to become “rUKish” rather than apply for any future Scottish passport or lose your rights.
The point is that no one would have been stripped of their UK citizenship if Scotland had voted Yes. Not even Better Together tried to argue that point. Children born in iScotland may not have been eligible for UK citizenship but if you were born in the UK you would have had a UK passport.
No matter the result of the previous referendum Scottish expats would have still been able to live and work in EU countries (until Brexit, of course) so it was entirely correct that they shouldn't have a vote.
Now there is more of a case that they should have a say but overall I don't think they should.
BruceWee
Free MemberScotland is not xenophobic
Correct, we're far too busy hating slightly different scottish people.
That's alright because elsewhere in the UK
a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist
A smaller proportion in Scotland. We are not without our weegie bams 🙂 And our government is not xenophobic and racist 🙂
a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist
What's a "fair proportion"?
5,10,20,30,40% ?
What’s a “fair proportion”?
Dunno, probably about the same percentage that voted Tory in the last election.
Dunno, probably about the same percentage that voted Tory in the last election.
Really, what about the members of the party, the elected representatives etc
Does Rishi know he's a xenophobe and openly racist?
So BruceWee at 40+%, what's TJ's "fair proportion"?
Does Rishi know he’s a xenophobe and openly racist?
I don't know if he knows he is, but he is.
Our community’s history of antiracist struggle in Britain can show us another way to confront these issues. When Indian migrants first arrived in Britain in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, they joined forces with recently arrived African-Caribbean migrants to form a unified “black” community of resistance. They responded to state neglect, racial violence and racist policing with a range of radical self-help initiatives, run through organisations such as the United Coloured People’s Alliance, the Black Liberation Front and the British Black Panther Movement. This is a story of community and class solidarity based on shared resistance. It should be recovered to prepare us for the fight ahead.
Not sure how this makes Rishi a xenophobe and openly racist
You don't find it strange that the entirety of the government's minority representation comes not just from a single ethnic group but a single ethnic group who come via Africa where they saw the local population as being beneath them?
Fair enough.
At what level are you drawing the line? Plenty of other minority MPs in the government.
bruce you're having a bit of a nightmare today probably best not to bite on BnDs bait! 😆 And step away.
Plenty of other minority MPs in the government.
What other minorities are represented in the government? Not the backbenches but the actual government?
bruce you’re having a bit of a nightmare today probably best not to bite on BnDs bait! 😆 And step away.
I've started drinking. I'm in this for the long haul 🙂
haha 😆
Just to argue with myself now, Alok Sharma's family did not come from India via East Africa so it's only 2 out of 3.
Nadhim Zadawi just on C4 news
Kemi Badenoch
big_n_daft
Free Member
Nadhim Zadawi just on C4 news
Business minister insists ‘all the protocols were followed’ with government PPE contracts 😆 😆 😆
Boris shows his love for Scotland.
This is doing the rounds again.
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He's the gift that never stops giving. 🙂
And then this reappeared
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(Not his poem, he published it though)
Business minister insists ‘all the protocols were followed’ with government PPE contracts
Well he would say that wouldn't he, I imagine the shredders at going at max speed at the moment
Anyway does Nadhim Zadawi know he's a xenophobe and openly racist?
The betting sites are giving odds of 5/2 the Rishi will be PM by 2021, all very xenophobic and openly racist
Anyway does Nadhim Zadawi know he’s a xenophobe and openly racist?
The betting sites are giving odds of 5/2 the Rishi will be PM by 2021, all very xenophobic and openly racist
Do you also think someone can't be racist because some of their best friends are black?
There are two reasons that Rishi and Patel are in such high profile positions when, as you said, they have other ethnic minorities they could have chosen.
One is that idiots will say, 'See, they're not racist. They have brown people in the cabinet.'
The second is that they come from a background that means there is a good likelihood they will have questionable attitudes towards people's roles in society.
You can't make assumptions about people based on their backgrounds. However, once they start behaving in a certain way you can look at their backgrounds by way of explanation.
Thump nails it.
There are two reasons that Rishi and Patel are in such high profile positions when, as you said, they have other ethnic minorities they could have chosen.
Obviously other reasons are a lot more likely
They have the support of other MPs and grandees of the party
They have some talent (ok with Patel it's a bit harder to see that)
They have ideas and drive (ok, some of the ideas you might not like)
You can’t make assumptions about people based on their backgrounds. However, once they start behaving in a certain way you can look at their backgrounds by way of explanation.
You assume anyone who votes conservative is a xenophobic open racist and that the BAME members of the government are either the same or useful idiots
TJ assumes "a fair proportion" of rUK are openly xenophobic and racist
One is that idiots will say, ‘See, they’re not racist. They have brown people in the cabinet.’
This idiot is saying the conservatives have a BAME MP who is at 5/2 to be PM in 2021, which clearly shows that the issue is far more nuanced than the binary world you inhabit
Or do you still insist he must be a xenophobic open racist or an useful idiot
You can't argue that English nationalism doesn't have xenophobic factors contributing to it, certainly it was a major marketing tool in the Brexit campaign
Nationalism will always have traction with racists & xenophobia is a powerful motivator, how politicians use it can be dangerous: hysteria over migrants in the channel has certainly been jumped on by many MPs, Patel included.
The SNP seem much less blatant about it, but you'd be foolish to say it wouldn't be a factor in any campaign, being anti English is a lot easier when Johnson with his own history of offhand biggotry, towards Scotland & others makes it much easier.
Id like to think the current Tories are now taking the threat of indy seriously, but looking at the more brexity ones, it's pretty obvious they couldn't give 2 shits about whether Scotland stays. And these MPs are steering the country right now.
So what happens next if the SNP get a majority at holyrood in May is what matters
I'm not sure I see much opposition from many tories if Sturgeon pushes for another ref
This idiot is saying the conservatives have a BAME MP who is at 5/2 to be PM in 2021, which clearly shows that the issue is far more nuanced than the binary world you inhabit
You're the one who is saying they can't be racist because they have brown people in the cabinet which is quite a binary way of looking at things.
I'm the one who is saying it's more nuanced than that.
I’m not sure I see much opposition from many tories if Sturgeon pushes for another ref
It doesn't need opposition from many tories, just the one. Boris Johnston.
You’re the one who is saying they can’t be racist because they have brown people in the cabinet which is quite a binary way of looking at things.
I’m the one who is saying it’s more nuanced than that.
You are misrepresenting, I haven't opined on it other than to say that defining everyone who votes conservative as openly xenophobic and racist and any BAME members of government as either token useful idiots or just as xenophobic and racist is clearly questionable and doesn't really stand up to scrutiny
If there are nuances in your sweeping statements then please elaborate
The SNP seem much less blatant about it, but you’d be foolish to say it wouldn’t be a factor in any campaign, being anti English is a lot easier when Johnson with his own history of offhand biggotry, towards Scotland & others makes it much easier.
I live in Scotland and have an English accent and have never had any anti-English issues.
Oh, and I'm an SNP member.
kimbers
The SNP seem much less blatant about it, but you’d be foolish to say it wouldn’t be a factor in any campaign, being anti English is a lot easier...
This tired old trope.
It's really much simpler than that.
It's normal for a country to be independent, and not at all normal for one to be ruled by its next door neighbour.
With the train crash of Boris/Brexit/CoVid/Corruption it has become even more apparent to Scots that severing connections with England is something we should be doing ASAP.
Racism isn't a factor in seeking independence. Scotland's problem is an ideological and very nasty sectarian one (which does not support independence BTW)
Youd be naive to think it wont be a problem, even if its just knee-jerk dislike of Tories (something Im guilty of too)
nationalism & xenophobia will always be related to a greater or lesser degree and the sectarian thing is a good point- Im probably coloured by my mums family whos politics & rangers-celtic support overlap as you'd expect- my uncle now lives in england and his van has a massive Rangers union jack in the drivers cab, his cousin a celtic fan whos facebook page is just 100% green & white (what used to be friendly rivalry seems a lot less friendly these days)
what used to be friendly rivalry seems a lot less friendly these days
I don't think that's the case, brought up in deepest Ayrshire, it's always surrounded me, so I have some knowledge.
As ever, social media brings the scum to the surface, so you'll see them if you're in the likes of ****ter. There's more of a political nature to the divide now, even more so with indyref and brexit, but most folks I know who happen to follow either side, myself included, aren't really interested in any of the nonsense, never have been.
I couldn't give a flying **** about ulster, the IRA, the UVF, battles on rivers, it's aw pish.
I'm just a football fan, that's it.
There's a lot more Yes supporters within the Rangers support than you'd think, they just don't go shouting about it, that's all.
Some folk need the tribal thing, it's weird, but twas ever thus.
Apropos of nothing
I'm English, went to uni in Wales, got more abuse off Welsh nationalists there for being English than I ever did in Scotland on our annual trips to visit family
No one is really bothered about the anti English thing up here any more, the odd nitwit that puts a daft feather on his head and a skirt on to watch football a few times a year, but thankfully no one really takes any notice of them.
kimbers
...what used to be friendly rivalry seems a lot less friendly these days...
It wasn't that friendly when I lived in Glasgow in the late 1960s, or should I say it was an excuse for gangs of thugs to set upon some innocent who happened to be wearing the wrong colours. They still used razors in those days.
I had a few unpleasant encounters when challenged as to which team I supported. It didn't help that my standard response was that real men don't ponce about kicking a ball but play shinty. I'm politer now. 🙂
The "sectarian" thing is just political football up here these days. It really doesn't pervade society in much of a negative way at all, that really ended in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Which is when it was bad. (2001 is when catholics reached occupational parity(which was a water shed moment imo) as yer man tom devine reckons and I'd agree, from personal anecdotal evidence of relatives). The last particularly nasty element of Scottish culture, ie the scheme gang culture(which was territorial and had nothing to do with the sectarian divide) is largely gone too. It's a different planet from what I grew up in in the 80's and 90s in that respect and died away in the 00s there, there was alot of good work done... In general people talk about some issues in scottish society as if they are a big thing, but they are talking nonsense, Scottish society in the 2020s is pretty gentile compared to what it was 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago.
There's a lot more talk about things these days though...And alot of people mistake banter for actual issues. If people think it's worse these days, they are living in an imagined reality.
In general it's a fairly unified society I think. Though I guess you'll struggle to see that if you are focusing on extremely small fringes.
IMO people focus too much in the negative and fail to see how far it's come.
So how do we think this will pan out now?
I know there’s a school of thought that says it’s now inevitable and will happen quickly.
But they’re is part of me that thinks people may have had enough for a few years and will just want stability. Even if it is actually ****
Independence is inevitable in less than five years
Unless sturgeon pushes hard with everything possible towards independence the SNP will split
Don’t know. But I got some Christmas Laphroaig that entitles me to a square foot of Islay peat bog or something. Scots born’n’bred, but a Tyke for 28 years, so owning property in Scotland might be a good idea. Register it as my home address if the time comes. 😉
You can have a square foot of my garden for a bottle of whisky 😀
SNP wont split, not a chance.
The Uber nationalists may moan about Sturgeons careful approach, but they'd be mad to split, back to being a shortbread sideshow like they were in the last century.
Independence is inevitable in less than five years
For Scotland or do you mean Shetland with Doric state joining them?
Unless sturgeon pushes hard with everything possible towards independence the SNP will split
I'd agree with this. There seems to be an increasingly vocal faction within the pro independent movement, who are becoming frustrated with a perceived lack of action from the SNP. I can only see that growing.
thegreatape
You can have a square foot of my garden for a bottle of whisky 😀
Now that’s a very kind offer, but do you know what you’re letting yourself in for?
My posts on here are fairly moderate, but I’m a loud mouthed, aggressive, opinioned swine in real life. And that’s hoe those that love me (or in the case of my CEO, promote me) view me.