MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
I've always been pro Union but the further Westminster seems content to descend into self serving Trump style politics, the more I could be moved to Independence. I think another Tory government at next general election would be the nail in my pro Union coffin
Thats sort of my pragmatic position Frank - I don't really want an independent Scotland for its own sake - but I am totally fed up of dysfunctional tory governments and want a progressive competent one. Independence seems to me the most likely way of getting this
Independence with anything less than a 60% majority would be a bit pointless.
If you mean a call for a referendum with less than 60% support, then yes, I'd agree for sure.
Nobeerinthefridge
If you mean a call for a referendum with less than 60% support, then yes, I’d agree for sure.
I believe the opinion polls when the first referendum was called were around 30% at best and after campaigning that rose to the actual result of 45%.
That demonstrates that any % that is within reach of a majority is a good reason to call a referendum because it can be improved upon.
Of course it's possible, but I'd prefer to come from a more solid base Brian, and have a decent result in the end.
Nobeerinthe fridge
Of course it’s possible, but I’d prefer to come from a more solid base Brian, and have a decent result in the end.
I agree with you, but the reality is grab whatever opportunity comes along when it comes along. Cameron only agreed to the referendum because he thought it would kill the independence movement for a while.
It's a case of try, try, and try again and never ever give up*.
.
.
*Referencing a famous Scottish independence campaigner of a few years back. 🙂
🙂
Looking forward to seeing who they manage to dredge up who will be acceptable to Dom and Bojo.
Couldn't face being the leader when the union finally starts to unravel...
Whit a walloper!
It will be Douglas Ross who IIRC is a total brexity rocket
I also read that there is a scandal in a business Carlaw was a director that is going bust of with 22 paintings bought as investments that the administrators cannot find
Today makes it even more stupid - Sturgeon got a bollocking for misuse of stats! Open goal - missed!
Thats the final nail in both the union AND the recent gains made by the Tories. Christ; if NS had to choose a leader of the Tories she would pick Ross. At least the art dealer could debate, although twitter is saying he was pushed and asked to be allowed to make it look like he quit.
On a purely anecdotal level.
In the run up to the last referendum I knew a lot of silent Unionists (in Dundee mainly).
Most of those are now in the * this * show, next time I’ll vote yes. Actually seems to be driven by Boris and Short Cummings and not necessarily because Tories are in government.
Westminster polling currently would have SNP winning every seat in Scotland bar one
That's BEFORE Johnson throws fishing communities under the bus to get his brexit deal !
latest polling:
SNP are also on course to get a whacking majority at the next Holyrood elections
Has anyone got an overview of the new pro-independence parties that I keep hearing about? I think the zoomer from Bath is involved in one but I understand there are others.
It'll be interesting to see what effect if any the pro independence list parties have on Holyrood polls. I support independence and can see the attraction of voting for a different party on the list rather than SNP both votes Haven't made my mind up though.
All the pro independence list parties will do is reduce green representation IMO
NO manifestos from them yet that I know of and one is supposedly being set up by somone who resigned from the SNP to do so
I think its a stupid idea that plays the electorate for fools and could well be self defeating
I think it could actually be a good thing. One of the things that I frequently hear from No voters is that they don't trust the SNP.
I try to point out that Scotland won't be a one party state after independence but they never see to believe me. Providing they have a genuinely different vision to the SNP for a future independent Scotland I think it could show that indy means more than just what the SNP says it does.
Or it could just be a way of gaming the system that will backfire, like you said.
Aye, it's a huge negative from me to dilute the green vote, especially if that Wings over Scotland nitwit is involved (assume that's who Gordimhor is referring to?)
There is this https://www.isp.scot/
I can't find a website for the Alliance for Independence which is supposed to be an umbrella group for all the other pro indy parties such as the Green Party Solidarity and Rise. I'm not sure which if any of those parties are committed to the Alliance. It's fronted by ex msp Dave Thompson and I'll hopefully be at Zoom meeting with him next Wednesday work permitting. As for the wings party so far as I know he hasn't yet taken any steps to officially set up and register the party for taking part in the election yet.
Oddly enough nobeer- I would very likely vote green, after independence.
Also while there was a lot of great work done on the wings website etc I have long since stopped using it as I cannot abide Stuart Campbells views on a whole range of subjects.
The wings guy has become a complete rocket. A pal of mine suggested I read a piece the other day. It started off with " Sturgeon has moved the party sharply right" which is utter nonsense. After that nothing he writes can have any credence
The wings guy has become a complete rocket. A pal of mine suggested I read a piece the other day. It started off with ” Sturgeon has moved the party sharply right” which is utter nonsense. After that nothing he writes can have any credence
agreed. I get the sense he's unwell. The almost demented stance he took on trans issues removed all credibility from him, and his political views are just bizarre now.
Just had a look at the Wings website for the first time in a long time. He's got a piece up defending the 'I heart J.K Rowling' advert in the train station.
Who would have thought Stu and JK would find something they were both so passionate about in common? I'm sure there's a romantic-comedy script in there somewhere.
I am an SNP member and I do think the party has drifted to the right a bit I don't like it but I can thole it if there is an independence referendum in the offing. I do understand those who say if we persist with the same tactics we should expect the same result. That is no section 30 order,and no referendum. Although the fact that Boris and Dominic seem to have organised removing Jackson Carlaw might be a sign that they're not immovable on this.
AFAIK the ISP is the only one of the new parties to actually register with the Electoral Commission.
Solidarity, Rise etc have had their chance and, in any case, seem to sway in the wind regarding independence according to the likelihood of Labour winning in the UK.
Too many folk disagree with some of the Green Party policies. I'm not sure they've much additional support to garner.
I doubt we'll see a Wings Party. There's no advantage in it now that there is the ISP.
A list-only indy party could work if it stood in selected regions where the SNP list vote is otherwise wasted. It could do with some "names" though. Lesley Riddoch comes to mind.
While I'd not accuse the SNP of moving to the right, there is an authoritarian streak that troubles me. That includes shutting down the debate on routes to independence (including at conference) and the latest Hate Crimes Bill. And if I have to read the "just one more mandate and they'll have to grant a Section 30" thing again I'm going to slap someone.
Wings has disappeared down some horrible dark transphobia hole. He came up with some decent stuff in the last indy campaign like the "Wee Blue Book" but his recent output just sounds like the haverings of a conspiracy nutjob.
I always though Jackson Carlaw was basically "Big Jock" for Chewing the Fat
And I see there's now been a change made to the selection rules in order to make it harder for Joanna Cherry to become an MSP.
I am totally fed up of dysfunctional tory governments and want a progressive competent one. Independence seems to me the most likely way of getting this
I agree with you, TJ - but if bits of any Union break off and go their own way, eventually it fragments completely. From a personal point of view, living in England, we have more chance of dysfunctional tory government if you guys leave us, but I agree that's our problem, not yours.
My real concern about the prospect of Scotland leaving the UK is that, having been born in England but spent my teens and early twenties in Scotland, I feel I'm a citizen of the UK and Scotland is part of my home country. I like Scotland and the prospect of becoming a foreigner there, and having no say in the matter, does distress me.
I like Scotland and the prospect of becoming a foreigner there, and having no say in the matter, does distress me.
It really used to annoy me during the campaign when unionists would say things like, 'My children would become foreigners and that distresses me.'
As the father of two 'foreigners' (in that they have different passports to me) I wonder what is so bad about it. Do I somehow love my kids less because of it?
I think the key difference between unionists and independence supporters is that unionists think that being a 'foreigner' affects your relationship with individuals rather than simply affecting how you decide on your government.
BoardinBob
Subscriberagreed. I get the sense he’s unwell. The almost demented stance he took on trans issues removed all credibility from him, and his political views are just bizarre now.
I think he's just decided to go full Hopkins tbh, you get more reads with controversy and madness. But he lacks the degenerate cunning to do it well.
I like Scotland and the prospect of becoming a foreigner there, and having no say in the matter, does distress me.
Ironic given that the majority of Scots didn’t vote for Brexit or this shitshow of a Westminster government and having no say so in the matter distresses them too.
I like Scotland and the prospect of becoming a foreigner there, and having no say in the matter, does distress me.
You could go for Scottish citizenship?
Scotroutes - the authoritarian streak has been there a long time with the SNP -- and centralising of powers. I dislike that as well. In fact its the major reason I do not vote SNP. However thats not a left / right issue and its one that the SNP have had ever since they gained power at Holyrood.
Sturgeons SNP government has increased taxes on the rich, decreased them on the poor, done their best to ameliorate the bedroom tax and so on. Thats a left leaning set of policies. The SNP now are a long way to the left from the day of "tartan tories" and IMO have moved leftwards since Sturgeon became leader
And yet, no council tax reform (again), land reform on the back burner (again), issues around shooting estates (land usage, raptor persecution, hare culls), national park policies favouring development over conservation.
Indeed Scotroutes. conservative ( small c) / cautious .
This to me shows the biggest failing of the labour party in Scotland. Rather than going - "SNP baaaaad" automatically to everything they should have been saying " thats a good policy as far as it goes but is far too timid - you need to add xyz to it" and moving amendments to that effect. That sort of approach from labour pushing the SNP to be more radical would have reaped them benefits.
Labour in Scotland are, of course, constrained by Labour UK and this is where the concept of devolution falls apart. Worse, Labour still think they will win back Scotland, and the UK, and so fight against further devolution. We really need a NI type of solution whereby the Westminster parties don't participate.
Ironic given that the majority of Scots didn’t vote for Brexit or this shitshow of a Westminster government and having no say so in the matter distresses them too.
Yes indeed. I didn't vote for them either. But I (and they) did have a vote.
https://twitter.com/glasgowcathcart/status/1289233883028848640?s=20
Of course, if James Dornan self ids as a woman, he'll still qualify.
IT'S not that long ago that many folks voting no for independence saw the SNP as a bit loose cannon, instead opting to remain part of the UK, as Westminster was seen as a steady hand on the tiller, experienced, with gravitas and clarity of thinking.
How's that working out for y'all?.
James Dornan forgets to mention that he already announced he'd be standing down back in february, which is what's triggered the all-woman shortlist, and only announced that he'd changed his mind shortly before the NEC meeting. Puts a pretty different light on it.
https://twitter.com/glasgowcathcart/status/1289627298753323008?s=19
Great. Now we need to get the Cherry blocker fixed too.
IT’S not that long ago that many folks voting no for independence saw the SNP as a bit loose cannon, instead opting to remain part of the UK, as Westminster was seen as a steady hand on the tiller, experienced, with gravitas and clarity of thinking.
How’s that working out for y’all?
3 close family member who voted against Scottish independence would now give it serious consideration mostly owing to the fact there seems to be absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel regarding the whole rotten Westminster government.
At some point (I imagine after Holyrood elections in May) theres gonna be a big constitutional tussle over when/how sturgeon gets to call another ref
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1296042557538029569
Including dont knows-
Yes - 51% (+1)
No - 42% (-1)
Don't Know - 7% (nc)
Nah. Nicola Sturgeon has basically said that she'll only hold Indyref2 if she gets a Section 30 order from Westminster. I can't imagine why the UK Government would grant one, especially if the polling shows a majority in favour of independence. She has also said that constitutional change is off the cards until the effects of Covid-19 have passed. Even with a fair wind, that could easily be another two years before she even considers asking for one.
This is much more interesting..
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/pas30/
If it can be established that a Section 30 order is not required then a referendum could be held much sooner. Of course, that will upset some of the SNP hierarchy, who have become too comfortable in their positions of power.
Can only really see May elections going ahead if covid is under control anyway!
Weve seen with Brexit that once the Nationalist genies is out of the bottle you cant stuff it back in, Sturgeon will have to deal with that if she tries to hit the brakes on indy- Tho I can see why her asking for section 30 after winninga pro-indy majority in May & then Johnson saying no is attractive to her as it only stokes anti-westminster sentiment further
And at this point I dont see Johnson making any efforts to try & keep scotland in the union anyway, he just doesnt seem to care
As an indy supporter I'll be delighted if that never happens, it's a prediction for a future Westminster election and I hope Scotland won't be involved in any more of them.
The predictions for Holyrood would be more informative.
Shetland are wanting independence again, from Scotland too lol!
Not sure what I'd vote this time around. Voted no to independence and no to brexit. I'd probably vote no again, but there's a slight wobble with the way things have been with the tories in power and I do think nicola sturgeon has been pretty good through C19. But at heart I think we're still better together, but without the tories in power
Breakdown from the survation poll used by election map UK shows this prediction for Holyrood
Including the regional vote from the same poll it works out around:
SNP - 70
Labour - 21
Conservative - 20
Green - 10
Lib Dem - 8
So pro indy parties win 62% of seats and the SNP win an outright majority.
From a selfish point of view, My (brexit voting) mum is scottish
can I get an EU passport if scotland leaves UK & joins EU?
But id still rather Scotland stayed in the UK, what I really dont like is the millitant rangers sectarian unionist stufff my uncle comes out with, its alienated his own kids
But at heart I think we’re still better together, but without the tories in power
That's the crux of it though isn't. As its currently arranged Scotland is powerless to decide who governs - limited devolution not withstanding.
Ultimately that is what its all about.
Ruth Davidson back? Surely not, she chucked it to spend more time with her son.
Then took up a place in the house of lords...
but without the tories in power
😆
I've lived 42 years. tories have been in power for 27.5 of them, and counting... That's a theme that isn't going to change. You'll get labour again, but you'll be back to the tories soon enough. The tories are without a doubt the dominant uk party, by a decent margin. Even if labour get in tory politics still dominate.
Ruth Davidson is kinda back in the SP. She's the one currently doing FM questions for the tories.
If only every vote for SNP was assumed to be a vote for independence.
I (obviously) wouldn't vote for Tory
Labour and LD are a wasted vote. That leaves me only voting SNP. But I am not in favour of independence.
But at heart I think we’re still better together, but without the tories in power
Well yes...and I'd definitely be a 'no if the Tories weren't part of the equation. As things stand however I'm 50/50. If Nicola can give us sometjing a bit more concrete than the snp's approach let time round of 'have a little faith it'll all be fine', then id probably vote yes.
It would pain me to do so, but I can no longer abide being ruled by that incompetent shower of lying xxxktards from westminster.
Nobeerinthefridge
Free MemberRuth Davidson back? Surely not, she chucked it to spend more time with her son.
Well, as it turned out it was to spend more time with a lobbying company. But since she had to step down from that role due to the conflict of interest she has more time to spend on parliament.
If only every vote for SNP was assumed to be a vote for independence.
Works both ways, I know a few who would vote yes, but won't vote SNP.
As its currently arranged Scotland is powerless to decide who governs
This is true, but it is also true of many more people in England! In fact if you're in Scotland your vote probably has proportionally more weight than mine. There is "better" grouping (and a better alternative in Scotland) but please don't forget that just because the majority of Conservative seats are in England doesn't mean that there are not lots of people who would rather there not be a Conservative government but a combination of poor opposition and voting system means there is a massively skewed picture.
If the UK moved away from FPTP and to a more PR system, I'd be happy staying in the UK.
since she had to step down from that role due to the conflict of interest she has more time to spend on parliament.
And on LBC. So much for spending more time with her family.
yourguitarhero
Free MemberIf the UK moved away from FPTP and to a more PR system, I’d be happy staying in the UK.
Me too- FPTP has generated and worsened some absolutely crazy situations over the last few years, culminating in Boris Johnston's massive majority with 43.6% of the vote, Jeremy Corbyn's crushing minority with 32%, and the clear majority of votes being cast for left leaning and anti-brexit parties. It's a huge problem and the more divisive politics gets the worse it is.
Not me. In a PR system, London would have as many seats as Scotland and I don't believe equal weighting should be given to votes cast in an area where the social and economic requirements are so different.
Well for me government should be of the people, by the people, and outward looking.
So yes to independence, yes to government at the most local level possible, ( are you listening SNP) and yes to EU or EFTA membership. Yes to PR as well for better representation of the whole electorate.
Government at the most local level brings it to regional level and some regions are not capable of simply following a plan, possibly because their rosette is not the same colour bas ScotGov.
franksinatra
Labour and LD are a wasted vote. That leaves me only voting SNP. But I am not in favour of independence.
What is it about being ruled by the large neighbouring country, whose parliament regularly over-rides matters that are in Scotland's interests, that is so appealing to you?
Genuine question.
Stockholm syndrome. It's the only explanation. 😆
epicyclo
What is it about being ruled by the large neighbouring country, whose parliament regularly over-rides matters that are in Scotland’s interests, that is so appealing to you?
being british I'd guess, a valid stand point and no hard to figure out. It's more p to you to convince him of the virtues scottishness, condescending questions are of little help in that.
Jockholm syndrome.
FTFY
seosamh77
...condescending questions are of little help in that
It wasn't condescending.
I'll take it out of its Scotland/England context then.
If you lived in country A with a large neighbour country B which ruled country A.
Country B's parliament regularly over-rode matters that were in country A's vital interests, would that appeal to you?
5 or 6 consecutive polls now showing Indy ahead, including one commissioned by the UK Govt. One of the reasons is the FM being considered to be doing a better job than the PM.
And now the BBC decide not to show the FMs daily Covid briefings. Does anyone really believe that's coincidence and that the BBC is not being used to maintain the power of the UK State?
would that appeal to you?
Would depend if I viewed the Country A or Country A+B as the whole. There's 2 valid view points that are up for debate. Up to you to win the debate.
Borders are transient, not god given rights. Historical rights aren't the most important part, what are the benefits going forward are the more interesting and relevant topics.
It wasn’t condescending.
I read it as condescending tbh.
If the UK moved away from FPTP and to a more PR system, I’d be happy staying in the UK.
I'm sure that that kind of radical rethink of the electoral system could certainly buy them some time whilst people see what pans out - there is of course no certainty that a PR system would "favour" Scotland, although it would go a long way to silencing the "We never voted for them" argument. The other obvious way to make "Westminster relevant again in Scotland" would be to create a proper english parliament (or regional assemblies). I consider this the "inverse West Lothian question" - rather than why should Scottish MPs get a vote on "English issues" its why is the UK parliamentary time being clogged up with English Health and Education issues. And of course those being "big" issues means that the choice of government for the whole of the UK is heavily influenced by English Health and Education priorities.
I (obviously) wouldn’t vote for Tory
Labour and LD are a wasted vote. That leaves me only voting SNP. But I am not in favour of independence.
I wouldn't worry. The SNP leadership don't appear to be in any hurry to push for independence. An ever-growing number of folk in the wider indy movement (both within and outwith the SNP) are growing tired of them and would rather they'd spent the last two years trying to sort out Indy instead of trying to fight the will of the people of England and their desire for Brexit.
If the UK moved away from FPTP and to a more PR system, I’d be happy staying in the UK.
I’m sure that that kind of radical rethink of the electoral system could certainly buy them some time whilst people see what pans out – there is of course no certainty that a PR system would “favour” Scotland, although it would go a long way to silencing the “We never voted for them” argument. The other obvious way to make “Westminster relevant again in Scotland” would be to create a proper english parliament (or regional assemblies). I consider this the “inverse West Lothian question” – rather than why should Scottish MPs get a vote on “English issues” its why is the UK parliamentary time being clogged up with English Health and Education issues. And of course those being “big” issues means that the choice of government for the whole of the UK is heavily influenced by English Health and Education priorities.
problems with that though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum
Neither regional devolution or replacing FPTP are going to happen.