Scotland Indyref 2

Exactly why so many of us up here are sick of the SNP

THis has yet to transfer to the ballot box

We had oil. Most of it is gone. The stuff left is in smaller expensive to access fields. Prices are down. Predicted oil revenue for the next couple of years - zero.

Indeed. I always said in the last referendum that we have to completely forget about oil, it does seem the SNP now think that too based on this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39178324

People are more informed now and if pro independence arguments still bleat on about oil wealth then they're doomed. There was so much complete nonsense about it last time, secret oil fields off Shetland, an oil boom on the horizon etc, etc, and people were blindly sharing it on facebook etc from pages like yes shetland, it was painful to see.

I reckon I'd probably vote for independence if there was another one, an unopposed tory government set on returning the country to the dark ages is doing my head in. However if I read the words "Hope over fear" ever again or any more nonsense about oil I might change my mind! I'd be a lot happier if there was a credible opposition to the SNP though as I'm not keen on them at all.

All the SNP need to do is write some lies on a bus and drive it round and boom

they can go indy and however bad it is for everyone, just shrug and say - 'its the will of the people'

@seaso being a lender of last resort in NOT an opportunty to make a profit. By the time things get that bad there is "no money left" and likely very few assets. If Scotland got into that situation the oil reserves would already have been sold off to try and avoid getting into that mess.

Would there be a third Referendum ? Of course, [url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dream-Shall-Never-Die/dp/0008139784#immersive-view_1489100228572 ]The Dream Shall Never Die[/url]

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Looming forward to Swinney explaining how Central Bank reserves are going to be built up given the size of the Scottish FS industry.

Good job most folk don't understand and don't care.

Share of the British reserves should be a good start.

will it be as convincing as your explanation of where power lies in a devolved country 😆

[quote=seosamh77 ]Share of the British reserves should be a good start.

Doesn't seem at all unreasonable assuming you'd take a proportional share of all the other assets and liabilities. Though of course as I pointed out earlier if another referendum does happen in the near future (reading what NS is now saying that seems incredibly unlikely to me) the position in negotiations won't be the same as if it had been a referendum held with the agreement of the UK government.

Keep reading Joe!

Bigjim I agree with you that independent Scotland should not rely on oil revenues. Though some folk think revenues are going to rise [url= https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38091306 ]obr oil revenues[/url]

I should also say that "Hope Over Fear" is nothing to do with the SNP but is a Tommy Sheridan organisation. I am not a fan of his.I suspect the song came from there too

If Scotland got into that situation the oil reserves would already have been sold off to try and avoid getting into that mess.

*TOO WEE, TOO POOR ALERT*

[quote=BoardinBob ]*TOO WEE, TOO POOR ALERT*

I'm seeing distinct similarities between calling that out and Trumpettes describing anybody who disagrees with them as snowflakes. Neither really helps with progression of rational discussion.

Thm, still waiting on your example of a country that has gone independent from the UK but now wants to return? 😉

the position in negotiations won't be the same as if it had been a referendum held with the agreement of the UK government.

Thankfully there is at least one person on here able to accurately describe reality in a calm and rational manner.

Ture but there is no effective way - short of civil war- to ignore it.

Neither side will do that and as per usual TM will accept she was beaten in a ref and become hellbent on achieving what she did not want as she is a principled as any TOry 😉

TBH I have no idea how such a scenario [ Scotland votes leave in a ref that the UK does not sanction/recognise] would end but it would certainly not be with the Status Quo

What's the point of your question Joe? And why are you asking me?

Why does Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh whine so much - she makes Keiza look statesman-like?

TBH the only correct answer to that is the one already given - we don't know, because nobody has asked any of them. Though would you like to take a punt on what the opinion would be in Zimbabwe if asked?

It is of course also a strawman.

It's almost as if Project Fear was still running...

Just as well most of the negative stuff is coming from irrelevants, ie people who won't be getting a vote.

Last time from a base of about 25% in the polls we nearly got across the line. The new starting line is around 50%.

What have we got now:
Loads of new young voters, and those are about 85% in favour.
Oldies have died off, and so long as we have checks to ensure they don't postal vote this time, that is a reduction in the Unionist vote. They're also less likely to believe the lies about pensions this time.
EU citizens largely voted No because the scare about not getting into the EU. This time they will vote Yes, about 200,000 of them.

TBH I have no idea how such a scenario [ Scotland votes leave in a ref that the UK does not sanction/recognise] would end but it would certainly not be with the Status Quo

Probably end up with a few folk on here ****ing themselves to death over the prospect of getting to send the troops in.

"Irrelevants" - great hypocrisy, the vote affects everyone in the UK unless you are staggeringly myopic. Sums attitudes up very well epic!

[quote=Junkyard ]Thankfully there is at least one person on here able to accurately describe reality in a calm and rational manner.

HTH

TBH I have no idea how such a scenario [ Scotland votes leave in a ref that the UK does not sanction/recognise] would end but it would certainly not be with the Status Quo

I should expect it would end with Scottish independence, it doesn't appear there is any appetite to ignore advisory referendums. I certainly wasn't suggesting otherwise, simply that the strength held by each side when negotiating splitting of assets and liabilities (amongst other things) would be different to what it might have been if Scotland had voted yes in a Westminster sanctioned referendum. Such is the way with UDI.

Bigjim I agree with you that independent Scotland should not rely on oil revenues. Though some folk think revenues are going to rise obr oil revenues

I should also say that "Hope Over Fear" is nothing to do with the SNP but is a Tommy Sheridan organisation. I am not a fan of his.I suspect the song came from there too

It's the wheeling out of the phrase hope over fear in response to tricky questions eg about economy or currency that I get fed up with. It's the same as catchphrases like project fear or 911 or clintons emails, just a way to sidestep issues and paint the person asking the question as some kind of baddy or traitor.

There is definitely a future for oil here but the north Sea is past its peak, and whilst there are undoubtedly future reserves West of Shetland and Atlantic frontier, factors like the deep water and extreme environment mean they won't be viable for a long time. Decom costs are immense too. There's no point in prattling on about wasted oil revenues from padt decades either, we need to look forwards, not backwards, what's done is done.

teamhurtmore - Member
"Irrelevants" - great hypocrisy, the vote affects everyone in the UK unless you are staggeringly myopic. Sums attitudes up very well epic!

But it's true, you and your opinion are pretty much irrelevant in this debate.

Junkyard - lazarus
...Ture but there is no effective way - short of civil war- to ignore it...

A NI type situation would be a disaster IMO, but if the SNP backs down or loses again then they won't have the same clout. Remember the SNP is only part of the independence movement.

teamhurtmore - Member
"Irrelevants" - great hypocrisy, the vote affects everyone in the UK unless you are staggeringly myopic. Sums attitudes up very well epic!

The fact is your attitude is irrelevant to the end result.

We watch parliament on TV from up here. We get to see just exactly how much the UK cares about Scotland, so why should I care about the effect of our independence from UK that is trying to drag my country out of the EU?

Surely the rUK will be delighted that it won't be burdened with all that oil and getting rid of all those subsidy junkies.

You should be worried abot that, after all if the vote was widened you would win easily 😉

But you right, myopia is the name of the game. Very well pull

True epic, we should not forget Rev Campbell's Tartan Army

Scotland's just moving in a different direction its not about currency or oil
were just a different country ,we've just kinda drifted apart It's not your fault honest ,we tried an open relationship but hey neither of us were comfortable with it,the time has come to admit it just ain't working we can still be friends(even with benefits) but now's the time to call a halt,hell yeah it'll be tough but we still love you and in time you'll look back on this with a wistful smile ....I'm sure

All we need is a post from you making the claim that it is anti English sentiment driving the indy movement THM and you will have been through your personal list of cliches in two pages. Do you not want to keep at least some if your powder dry?

teamhurtmore - Member
What's the point of your question Joe? And why are you asking me?

duckman - Member
All we need is a post from you making the claim that it is anti English sentiment

So here is my personal view. From where I see it a basically competent social democratic minority government in holyrood that is internationalist / pro europe and reflects the will of the people of Scotland quite well and I see and archaic shambles down south that persists in leading us in ways I don't want. I am no blood and soil nationalist. I describe myself as a brit. However the country I know and love, Scotland has the potential to be so much more than it is and England is taking us in a direction I simply don't want to go and nor do the vast majority of the people of Scotland.

Economically the low price of oil is a huge hit but its unusually low for a unusually long time. Economically Scotland would be far from a basket case and it would take years to untangle fully especially with England leaving the eu. Politically this is all dependent on a smooth transition to remain in the eu but its a far from zero chance and whatever terms we got from the eu we are fully compliant and existing members of course there will be a EU fudge on it and the chance to stick two fingers up to westminster? don't underestimate it

Oil money if not large amounts now may well come back again and would be a welcome bonus. One real opportunity that is alternative energy. Scotland is well placed to carve out a niche here if the right decisions are taken now.

If right now it means real austerity rather than the fake london version then so be it

More politics. Sturgeon is shitting herself. A cautious politician by nature. she knows she has to call a referendum and she knows it has to be before A50 plus a year.

There remains a part of the Yes vote includes people who voted Out of the eu. this seems to have countered the former No voters to whom being in the EU is more important. Sturgeon said she wanted to see a steady lead in the polls before she went to the public. She hasn't got one. Is leaving the EU decisive enough an issue to call a referendum on? - because one more shot is all the snp get.

Someone mentioned the UK made no money out of oil last year.

Are those UK govt figures or are they something that can be checked independently?

And as a matter of interest how much did Norway make - they have the same size oilfields etc?

I ask because it seems gross incompetence for a govt not to be making money out of a resource mined in its country/waters.

So here is my personal view. From where I see it a basically competent social democratic minority government in holyrood that is internationalist / pro europe and reflects the will of the people of Scotland quite well and I see and archaic shambles down south that persists in leading us in ways I don't want. I am no blood and soil nationalist. I describe myself as a brit. However the country I know and love, Scotland has the potential to be so much more than it is and England is taking us in a direction I simply don't want to go and nor do the vast majority of the people of Scotland.

Pretty much this, less the love bit. Skiing isn't good enough for that.

the mash nails it

SCOTLAND’S second independence vote must happen in the window between Theresa May’s destruction of Britain and her sacking, Nicola Sturgeon has said.

The first minister told media that the exact scheduling is incredibly difficult, but that autumn next year currently looks about right.

She continued: “Post-Article 50, we’re expecting about six months while May continues to bluff boldly about EU negotiations while slowly realising exactly how much shit she’s in.

“Then we build momentum for independence as the economy collapses, the Tories turn on each other, the prime minister loses her majority and Jeremy Corbyn continues to make jam.

“That’s when we need to strike, while England’s an absolute hellhole but before May’s forced to resign and replaced by whichever luckless bawbag has to desperately offer concessions to the EU while the right-wingers rip them apart.

“We cannot wait until after Brexit. By that time the English will be so angry at how badly they’ve ****ed themselves they’ll start a war with anyone.”

I'd seen the Daily Mash story of FB, if you got a straight-laced BBC news presenter to read it, it'd sound like 'real news' 🙂

It's the same as catchphrases like project fear or 911 or clintons emails, just a way to sidestep issues and paint the person asking the question as some kind of baddy or traitor.

As the rightwingers on here delight in pointing out it's a successful tactic tho.....

Duck man, now you mention it?!!

Hand't crossed my mind. No one is so stupid that they commit self harm just because they don't like [s]doreigners[/s] the English and their bloody poll tax. Anyone remember that?

Brexshit took the BS baton off yS but they are going for be grabbing it back with both hands now. The distortion between the required rhetoric and reality will be even more breathtaking this time around

Talking of cliches - just listen the BS cliches that we get every time the SNP open their mouths * - not just nippy we had Tasmina Angry wetting herself on QT last night with the usually false claims and diversion tactics on their own failings

#SDBMB

* the grown up Angus Robertson aside

teamhurtmore - Member
... not just nippy we had Tasmina Angry wetting herself on QT last night with the usually false claims and diversion tactics on their own failings...

Sneering and name calling again? When you play the person and not the ball the spectators know you're losing...

If right now it means real austerity rather than the fake london version then so be it

Bravo TJ. Not many are prepared to admit that rather than austerity the Coalition and then the Tories has actually been running one of the loosest fiscal policies in the developed world. One reason why the UK finally recovered rel strongly.

Imagine what real austerity would feel like? God help the party bringing that in especially a pretend LW anti-austerity one

It's a funny old world awash with snake oil at the moment

Call it what you want epic just noting the constant hysterical shrill wining that has been coached in by the SNP's presentation team.

Three scots on the QT panel last night. Two managed to make sensible arguments without ranting and wining and talking very angrily at 100mph. Still there is a need to create false rage against [s]local delivery faliures[/s] the bogeymen

I think your own bigotry is clouding your judgement there thm. You are quite pathetic.

THM wants to lecture us on HYSTERICAL SHRILL WINING[sic] 😆

OH THE IRONY
that is just brilliant and genuinely made me LOL at it.
What is it about the SNP and an independence vote that makes you the worst example of what you are complaining about?

Bigotry now!!!

Yes, this forum deserves better.