Scotland Indyref 2

Sturgeon continues to play a blinder. Love her or hate her - she is a canny political operator

In response to Mays "now is not the time" she said ( I paraphrase) "I agree. Now is not the time. I think it should be in a year or so. May might agree as she hasn't said when would be the time. Lets see if we can find agreement on timing, we might not be far apart"

showing herself as being reasonable and open to compromise and putting May on the back foot again

Which is what Sturgeon's supporters would say.

May's supporters would say that Sturgeon is now on the back foot, having retreated from demanding total control to wanting a discussion over the timing. May's statement clearly invited Sturgeon's reaction (not even the most stupid politician would think that "not now" would be met with anything other than "OK, when?").

Perception of events is generally rather tainted by our own political bias.

Sometimes I think one of them has been rather canny, at other times it is the other. Then I tend to settle on them both being effing hopeless. One does little more than whine (or is that just to get her voice heard?) while the other talks like a moderate but acts like a harcore brexiteer (or is that just posturing before negotiations?).

TJ is under the illusion that an iS would take it's 8% of BoE

997 I'm gone naewhere! 😀

One issue unaddressed is the potential for capital flight in either direction.

The Scottish entrepreneurs i know are all dusting off their plans from 2014. I imagine the same is happening for HNWI's in regard to BREXIT.

Thats certainly an imponderable - if it looks like Scotland will remain in the EU and rUK is not getting any deal I would expect financial services / investment to move to Scotland. If it looks like Scotland will be out of the EU and rUK gets a good deal then it could go the other way.

Capital flight is a temporary situation though. When things look stable again. It'd come back.

Listen we know there will be difficulties. It's disingenuous to say there wouldnt be it's also disingenuous to paint them as the end of the world.

NI is an Island, that makes a big difference

Does than mean we are part of mainland Europe then?

poll in the Telegraph was exactly the position I

Poll of Little Englanders, shows they want to live in little England, is hardly surprising

In the Scottish project team I'm currently working with, we have people who were born in England, India, Northern Ireland, France, we've even got some Weegies. All resident Scots who have chosen to live here because they like the place. But people are still trotting out the image of woad-daubed Celts shouting nationalist anti-English slogans...

Statistically Oldham is more attractive to immigrants than anywhere in Scotland.

Oldham has no PR, no marketing, constant rain, why do immigrants choose it rather than north of the border?

jambalaya - Member

NI is an Island

The most jamba post ever

[quote=big_n_daft ] Oldham has no PR, no marketing, constant rain, why do immigrants choose it rather than north of the border?Dunno, but I'd guess there's a lot to do with family connections, cheap housing, maybe jobs?

Any theories?

kimbers - Member

Poll of Little Englanders, shows they want to live in little England, is hardly surprising

Thank god for that!
I could have sworn that you made a post in the week that failed to include the phrase "Little Englander".

Thought you might have been unwell.

🙂

RE OLdham and areas of the North generally - where i live as Scottish ex pat- loads of industrial jobs for minimum wage that white folk would not do and the immigrants arrived in times of full employment to do the dirty shitty low paid jobs the natives would not. these were predominantly in the northern industrial heartlands that still existed in the late 60' and early 70's. Its either that or they like rain, terrace housing and grumpy white folk 😉

Once there the other immigrants were drawn to places with folk like them with shops that sold things from home and had places of worship for them etc.
This no longer holds true as many of the northern industrial areas are "wastelands" but immigrants remain drawn to them because immigrants , generally, end up in enclaves much like Brits in Spain and France settle where folk speak english and they can get by without learning spanish/French and still get the sun and the DM and buy proper baked beans

[u][b]JUNKYARD[/b][/u]

Could you highlight this anti english behaviour from Scottish folk who have chosen to live there?

Done.

Even Trump tweets have more evidence to support them than that effort

C'mon, that was quite good and you know it. 🙂

More seriously, I fail to see the point in specifying the details of my experiences and observations, they're not necessarily indicative of others'.

Sadly I completely missed the joke 😳

Perhaps we should not be trusted to run our affairs after all 😉

We Junkyard?

RE OLdham and areas of the North generally - where i live as Scottish ex pat- loads of industrial jobs for minimum wage that white folk would not do and the immigrants arrived in times of full employment to do the dirty shitty low paid jobs the natives would not. these were predominantly in the northern industrial heartlands that still existed in the late 60' and early 70's. Its either that or they like rain, terrace housing and grumpy white folk

Once there the other immigrants were drawn to places with folk like them with shops that sold things from home and had places of worship for them etc.

But that isn't the reality, in each wave of immigration from radically different cultures Oldham is more popular than Scotland. Polish is the second language of Lancashire showing how wide spread this effect is.

So despite the heavily funded PR and marketing, and senior politicians who get lots of TV time saying"come to Scotland it's wonderful" people coming to the UK choose places like Oldham in preference to Scotland. Now I'm sure Oldham has redeeming features but I don't remember any "come to Oldham" campaign.

Yet the SNP continue to peddle a message that they can create? a bright future for iS built on immigration

big_n_daft - Member
RE OLdham and areas of the North generally - where i live as Scottish ex pat- loads of industrial jobs for minimum wage that white folk would not do and the immigrants arrived in times of full employment to do the dirty shitty low paid jobs the natives would not. these were predominantly in the northern industrial heartlands that still existed in the late 60' and early 70's. Its either that or they like rain, terrace housing and grumpy white folk
Once there the other immigrants were drawn to places with folk like them with shops that sold things from home and had places of worship for them etc.
But that isn't the reality, in each wave of immigration from radically different cultures Oldham is more popular than Scotland. Polish is the second language of Lancashire showing how wide spread this effect is.

So despite the heavily funded PR and marketing, and senior politicians who get lots of TV time saying"come to Scotland it's wonderful" people coming to the UK choose places like Oldham in preference to Scotland. Now I'm sure Oldham has redeeming features but I don't remember any "come to Oldham" campaign.
[b]
Yet the SNP continue to peddle a message that they can create? a bright future for iS built on immigration[/b]

Well unless yout train of thought is that scotland's a shitehole that one one wants go to anyhow.. in which case I'll leave you to sneer in private.

Back in reality all it means is that UK immigration policy doesn't work for scotland, so they should have the power devolved, if not, it's a plus for the independence side..

Another plus for scotlands economy btw, scotland could grow its population quite considerably. You can't say there's not room for physical growth up here.

people coming to the UK choose places like Oldham in preference to Scotland.

Maybe it's because Oldham is like a 3rd world country and it reminds them of home?

It's a funny old argumant the immigration argument, it's hardly even like england is bursting at the seems compared to years ago...

1941 2,693,775 ?0.5%
1951 2,688,987 ?0.2%
1961 2,699,711 +0.4%
1971 2,729,741 +1.1%
1981 2,575,441 ?5.7%
1991 2,569,700 ?0.2%
2001 2,482,352 ?3.4%
2011 2,685,400 +8.2%

I asked on the last page whether you had any theories.

No I don't, i wouldn't choose Oldham as a place to emigrate to so the appeal escapes me

So, it could be exactly the factors that Junkyard and I suggested?

well the fact there's less immigration than oldham would suggest they possibly could increase it if they had the powers. not really seeing your issue here?

Or is it just people voting with their feet?

Well unless your train of thought is that scotland's a shitehole that one one wants go to anyhow.. in which case I'll leave you to sneer in private.

I've been to Oldham and to Scotland, Scotland has lots of attractions, Oldham does not come out well in a " redeeming feature" game

Back in reality all it means is that UK immigration policy doesn't work for scotland, so they should have the power devolved, if not, it's a plus for the independence side..

[quote=tjagain ]We Junkyard?

you have met me I am at least average sized

Scottish folk as in the diaspora to which i belong

So, it could be exactly the factors that Junkyard and I suggested?

I must be underestimating the family, religious and cultural links between the Eastern European and the Indian subcontinent

Loads of Eastern Europeans in my town too. Few Asians though.

Do you think if big and daft asks any more questions, he'll have a point? 😆

Ooh, is it that the facts are different or more important than the opinion of two Scottish nationalists. 😉

well the fact there's less immigration than oldham would suggest they possibly could increase it if they had the powers. not really seeing your issue here?

What powers? What legislation would be passed to change this? It's easy to say "we want the powers for this, that and the other". I've never seen the SNP or any of their supporters state what specific changes they would actually make.

So, given we currently have free movement from the whole of the EU (about 740 million people that could come to Scotland with no barrier at all), what legislative changes could be made to improve that number?

Scotland needs immigration. The problem is that immigrants don't seem to want to come here. What's the solution? What laws would be passed using powers currently reserved?

Allow us to set our own standards for immigration. Make it cheap and easy if we want.

Allow us to set our own standards for immigration. Make it cheap and easy if we want.

You can't 'set your own standards' because you're part of the EU remember...

[i]"EU Immigration Rules

Since 1999, the EU has been developing a common immigration policy for Europe.
EU countries have agreed that the EU should have common, or EU-wide, immigration and visa rules that will be valid all across the EU, in the 27 EU countries"[/i]

unless, of course, you remain part of the UK... because, in the words of the EU there a dispensation allowing "Ireland and the United Kingdom choose, on a case-by-case basis, whether or not to adopt EU rules on immigration, visa and asylum policies."

Allow us to set our own standards for immigration. Make it cheap and easy if we want.

We'd do better by getting the weather devolved tbh.

nah you could just make it a more welcoming place by saying
"look we quit the UK coz we're not like our small minded, little englander, brexit-voting neighbours to the south. Here, have you tried a beef olive?"

nah you could just make it a more welcoming place by saying
"look we quit the UK coz we're not like our small minded, little englander, brexit-voting neighbours to the south. Here, have you tried a beef olive?"

Not sure if you can get those in Oldham, might be the critical factor

Ban them and the flood gates will be opened

Why do immigrants at the moment prefer the "small minded country " to the south of you?

Why do immigrants at the moment prefer the "small minded country " to the south of you?

its fairly obvious

[img] [/img]

and I live in engerrluuund !

Why do immigrants at the moment prefer the "small minded country " to the south of you?

Anecdotal but....

In a previous workplace with a very high percentage of the workforce being immigrants (White English being an ethnic minority) there was two common themes about choosing England over Scotland.

1) Language (I shit you not)
2) Never heard of Scotland (I still shit you not, thought it was all England and just headed to a less cold bit, not sure that explains Oldham)

Adding to this, language was a common reason for choosing the UK instead of say Spain, or Italy. That and employment prospects.

Big and daft - have you ever been to scotland? Edinburgh is almost half immigrants!

YOur whole concept here is simply wrong

tjagain - Member
Big and daft - have you ever been to scotland? Edinburgh is almost half immigrants!

tjagain - Member

Big and daft - have you ever been to Scotland? Edinburgh is almost half immigrants!

This is a silly thing to say, and is of course, bollocks. It also sounds like something my mother would say... 😆

🙁

Your whole concept here is simply wrong

He's just saying that there are more immigrants in England than Scotland. This is true you know. I was assuming you weren't being literal with your Edinburgh comment...

scotroutes - Member

IIRC at the last census around 20% of Edinburgh residents were English.

They're not immigrants though, are they?

Errmmm- yes they are and I thought if you included the students it was higher than 20% English 🙂

They're British living in Great Britain.
How on Earth are they immigrants?
Have you forgotten about that cosy chat Scotland had with England 300 odd years ago?

its fairly obvious

You have clearly never been to Oldham

IIRC at the last census around 20% of Edinburgh residents were English. I know that the proportion in Argyllshire is higher. Maybe we need to track some down and ask them why.

They've been to Oldham? Parts of East Lothian get 600mm annual rainfall, in Oldham that's a dry month

Over 20% of school kids in Edinburgh are privately educated, good job that's a devolved matter, or are they full of the English?

And if you are counting the home nations in the "immigration" statistics the numbers look even worse for Scotland

Yet to see an answer as to Why do immigrants at the moment prefer the "small minded country "

big_n_daft - Member
...Yet to see an answer as to Why do immigrants at the moment prefer the "small minded country "

Pretty obvious, innit?

Building up critical mass so there's enough of them to take over parliament and declare Sharia Law.

I know that must be right because I saw in in a FB post from Britain First.

They're British living in Great Britain.

I think you're arguing over semantics here.

migrant

NOUN

A person who moves from one place to another, especially in order to find work or better living conditions.

But that's not really the commonly held definition of migrant. Mainly i suspect? as a result of how immigration has been portrayed by media and politics.

A person who moves from one place to another, especially in order to find work or better living conditions.

If I move from Hampshire to Middlesex to get a job I am a migrant. But they are clearly not the moves/numbers anyone is interested in or bothered about are they.

That was the point.

[b]BREAKING NEWS[/b]
Scotland scored a bonus point in the win over Italy yesterday.
Teresa May allowed them to have it.

Allow us to set our own standards for immigration. Make it cheap and easy if we want.

What could be cheaper and easier for the 740 million EU residents than free movement? Why don't they want to come here?

Also - the EU won't let you for other countries.

Big and daft - have you ever been to scotland? Edinburgh is almost half immigrants!

Have you ever been to Edinburgh?

84% of Edinburgh residents were born in the UK. Roughly half the immigrants are EU, half are not.

I live in edinburgh and I am a migrant - as are almost half the population of the city

For those of you that keep on saying " Sturgeon should get on with her day job"

From the SNPs own website so don't forget your pinch of salt
What they have done
https://www.snp.org/record

What the aims for the next year are
https://www.snp.org/good_news_from_the_snp_conference_you_may_have_missed

What many commenttors don't realise is the SNP and the scottish government are only reported in the english press when its something to with constitutional change - you never get to hear about what has been done and the press is overwhelmingly anti SNP

This is a good read as well if you want to understand the mood up here. McKenna is no SNP supporter - he often lays into them

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/19/theresa-may-triggered-call-second-scottish-referendum-independence?

tjagain:

Big and daft - have you ever been to scotland? Edinburgh is almost half immigrants!

No it isn't!

In my experience a lot of Scottish people believe that Scotland is ethnically diverse, but compared to several parts of England it is not.

The majority of Scotland isn't ethnically diverse I'll agree (we're about 99% white where we are) but the likes of Edinburgh is certainly, and because of the sheer number of tourists and students in the centre always feels far more.

I am including english folk like mself. NOt all immigrants are brown

I am including english folk like mself. NOt all immigrants are brown

I was aware of that, I'm an immigrant and paper white, but I still think you are way off the mark. Do you mean 50% when you say 50%?

Yup. Ok it looks like its more like 60% native 40% immigrants. 20% of the population of Edinburgh of permanent residents excluding students is English plus at least another 15% non UK migrants plus ll the students

Immigrants welcome is just political rhetoric from Sturgeon, an attempt to create a wedge / point of differentiation with Westminster/The English

Scotland did not vote Remain because it lives immigrants.

It voted Remain as it wants Brussels to control Westminster
It voted Remain as UK outside the EU is terminal for Independence

Look at the divisions in Glasgow between Catholics and Protestants, the notion that Scotland is somehow more tolerant amd welcoming than the rest of the UK is nonsense.

I thought you were talking about Scotland though.

tjagain: have you ever been to scotland? Edinburgh is almost half immigrants!

jambalaya

Look at the divisions in Glasgow between Catholics and Protestants, the notion that Scotland is somehow more tolerant amd welcoming than the rest of the UK is nonsense.

I agree. Scotland prides itself on its racial tolerance and looks down sneerily/superiorly on England, which it claims is less tolerant. But, Scotland does not have the immigration issues that England has, to the same extent.

TJ Scotland is going to get zero "Bank of England" assets. Financial services are going to leave Scotland as it will not have the regulatory rescources to support what it already has never mind attract more. (Also look at Luxembourg and Ireland as model required to attract offshore/non-domestic finance). Scotland's FS industry is primarily serving the UK, its seeking to divorce itself from its largest customer base (90% I recall).

An English bloke living in Edinburgh is an immigrant ?

Stretching the definition somewhat.

One of the difficulties I have is understanding the antipathy towards migrants.

Maybe this is because I lived for 30 years in Australia and saw the contribution of migrants to the economy.

One thing to remember about migrants is that they are the people with get up and go attitudes - as evidenced by migration. The sort of people who are going to make a positive contribution.

From what I can see anti-migrant feeling and racial hatreds in Oz are now being whipped up by the same non-dom media ownership as here. Which is ironic because everyone in Oz who is not of Aboriginal extraction is a migrant or of migrant origin.

We don't have a foreign migrant problem IMO. We do have a problem with foreign ownership of our media - they are brainwashing and destroying our country.

the notion that Scotland is somehow more tolerant amd welcoming than the rest of the UK is nonsense.

jambalaya - Member

TJ Scotland is going to get zero "Bank of England" assets.

really? Thats the nuclear option from Westminster and would cost them dear

jambalaya - Member
...Look at the divisions in Glasgow between Catholics and Protestants, the notion that Scotland is somehow more tolerant amd welcoming than the rest of the UK is nonsense.

You're right there. It's those bloody immigrant Irish and their sectarian hatreds causing all the problems. But I think their religion is really fitba related because we don't see them packing out the churches on Sunday.

But it's different in the Highlands, we're very tolerant.

Why, some of my best friends are sassenachs who don't even make the effort to learn Gaelic, and worse still, run bikes with derailleurs....

Ruth Davidson on Marr this morning. Spot on as usual.

"Where are SNP on currency, a central bank, the European Union. The SNP are not Scotland the as yet another poll shows the Scots do not want another Referendum."

allthepies - Member

An English bloke living in Edinburgh is an immigrant ?

Stretching the definition somewhat.

I have moved from one country to another to get work. Thats the definition of an economic migrant is it not?

Its a mischievous point tho I agree. I made it to make folk think about immigration and population flows in a wider sense

Funny how Davidson has changed her tune on this 100%.

TJ not if you havent left the United Kingdom it doesn't. That's one country.

Also economic migrant is generally applied to someone who is leaving an area of economic depravity for work (or benefits) in a wealtheir country. I worked in New York and Singapore. I was not an economic migrant. I was taking up a different opportunity and cultural experience via a work visa. Inwas closer to being a tax exile in Singapore than an economic migrant

Errmmm- the UK is not one country. If you work from false premises you get false answers. You also get migration within countries anyway

jambalaya - Member
Ruth Davidson on Marr this morning. Spot on as usual.

"Where are SNP on currency, a central bank, the European Union. The SNP are not Scotland the as yet another poll shows the Scots do not want another Referendum."

That BS again. They hope if they say it often enough people will believe it.

One poll we don't see is the survey the SNP sponsored earlier this year which had queries on several issues.

I'm pretty sure that if that was negative they would be singing a different song.

Some good visual evidence would be to look at the attendance of the SNP, Labour, and Tory conferences in Scotland. Guess which one had a huge hall packed.

TJ not if you havent left the United Kingdom it doesn't. That's one country.

According to the Uk's description of itself in the UN, it consists of 2 countries, England and Scotland, a principality, Wales, and a province, Northern Ireland.

I invite you to tell the most rabid Glasgow Unionist and anti-independence supporter that Scotland isn't a country. Pre-arrange the ambulance. 🙂

The lovely Ruth is irrelevant, like a sort of Dugdale-lite.

tjagain:

Its a mischievous point tho I agree. I made it to make folk think about immigration and population flows in a wider sense

I am finding this whole discussion confusing, it is not helped when people make incorrect statements, as fact, to encourage others to think. It just gives the impression that you are either trying to deceive or incapable of clear thought. (sorry if that sounds harsh)

No worries gauss

My pouint was realy in answer to someone who was saying Scotland does not attract immigrants - when if you include people like me in a wider definition of migrants then its not true.

Immigrants welcome is just political rhetoric from Sturgeon,

an attempt to create a wedge / point of differentiation with Westminster/The English

It voted Remain as it wants Brussels to control Westminster

It voted Remain as UK outside the EU is terminal for Independence

Intersting article from the mirror - remember this is a paper that oppose the SNP on everthing

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/stop-hatred-towards-scots-after-10047185

The other difference apart from the fact that the right wing get under 25% of the vote here is that Scotland is outward looking and internationalist in its viewpoint.

Latest poll for Scotland shows very clearly the politicl differnce

constituency vote %
Con 24
Lab14
SNP 51
Lib Dem 6
Green 4
UKIP 1

Regional list
con 24
Lab 14
Lib dem 6
SNP 40
Green 12
RISE 1
UKIP 2