Scotland Indyref 2

All the votes for councils have an effect and the list vote for Holyrood always does

No they don't always matter (unless you count a vote that doesn't get anyone elected an important one).

If we had full PR (more like the German system) then it would be different but we don't. Our PR is quite limited and does lead to regionally irrelevant votes. Far less so than FPTP, but it still happens. (and yes, I do know that the Scottish Executive did not select its own voting system).

<GERS> does not allow for profits earning in Scotland but reported in England

Largely, it does. If you take some time to read the GERS methodology, it goes a long way to try and fairly estimate the Scottish contribution. According to the SNP, GERS is an authoritative guide to Scotland's finances. The so-called white paper proposed finances for an independent Scotland based very much on GERS.

Long term, we would be a long way from GERS. For the first couple of years in a newly independent country, I don't think things could look much better than GERS. It isn't like the first day of independence will start with a blank sheet of paper - "so, now we are a sovereign nation, what shall we do about taxes and spening and stuff?"

Epic - its called a balance sheet for good reason!!

But looking forward to wee eck getting the various bits all mixed up AGAIN. This in an asset, no its not, yes it is, not its not, bloody English Tory bullies, no still not.....

ETP - repeat, youse musnt disagree with the narrative however false it is. Repeat x100 or you will have no pudding at all. Dissent is - to use our new European friends term - VERBOTEN

Assetts / liabilities are easy. Don't gives us a fair share of the assetts we take none of the debt. Simples.

How much will england pay to keep the subs on the clyde?

Why should we believe UK doom sayers now? Or perhaps they can explain why our system of govt is so inferior or intellectually challenged that we won't be able to do as well as, say Malta, or New Zealand.

That's not the argument, rUK is just disappointed that fellow members of the UK see an opportunity to dump the rest of us whilst lecturing that everything bad from the last 300 years is due to others and everything great was them. The lack of perspective beyond the narrow aims of dumping the rUK as to their contribution to the whole is disappointing and dismaying. Yet lots of people in the rUK will just try and carry on despite all the snide and divisive commentary that going to be enjoyed for the next two years as we quite like the UK and can see a bright future together despite the ups and downs and the imperfections of the system

Don't gives us a fair share of the assetts we take none of the debt.

You can have Sellafield as you clearly think there aren't any liabilities associated with it

How much will england pay to keep the subs on the clyde?

The snideness and divisiveness and attempts to shut people down - all come one way. Control the message, shut down dissent, the ends justify the means. We will never give up whatever the results of the votes....

Remember EtP, if you present the obvious case for why being part of the Union together with high levels of devolved power is in the best interests of the Scottish people then you are automatically (sic) using the so-called: "too wee, too skint, too feart"line - its an old cliche for stamping out common sense. Fortunately, canny folk saw through it last time.

Dissent ist Verboten

PS tjagain,
You have accused me (along with seosamh77) of disliking or hating scots and failed to produce any evidence the exists outside your own head (or I guess you could presumably just have me banned for racism, which should be pretty easy with all the evidence lying about on the forum, No?)

From now on I'm going to take accusations of hatred and dislike to mean
"I have searched the whole of the internet for evidence of the truth of things in my head, but have none."

big_n_daft - Member
I wonder how the Russian cash and cyber power is going to be used.....

There's many Scots who would be quite happy not to be a part of NATO, so that's not a show stopper. The SNP lost a lot of support when it removed opposition to NATO membership from its policy.

But it seems to me that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation would be somewhat lacking in strategic foresight if it excluded the country whose waters comprise a huge chunk of the North Atlantic approaches to Europe.

If we really needed a big friend there's probably enough socialists in Scotland that Russia would be invited to fill the gap.

Yeah, that's bullshit, but so is the politically motivated at the behest of Westminster statement of the NATO head. After all, why did he feel the need to make that political statement at this point? He was obviously prompted.

eat the pudding - I have told you - want me to quote some bits at you. Its the sneering and condescending tone in which you post.

Just a few examples

Will iScotland have its own Maths?

epicyclo.. so you're trying to create annoyance?

St Nic

EDIT PS "Business for Scotland" the SNP front? Don't make me laugh.

Until they realised (had it explained by someone with a bit of maths) what the results would be, and quietly accepted Barnett (pooling and sharing).

-2Bn temporary westmonster austerity = work of Satan leading to food banks and suicides
-10Bn ongoing SNP austerity = a satisfying challenge for a brave young nation.

The snideness and divisiveness and attempts to shut people down - all come one way. Control the message, shut down dissent, the ends justify the means.

that isnt entirely true, now

the BBC HYS talkback is overflowing with petty insulting comments about Sturgeon, SNP and scotland, and they have a pretty heavy moderation, gop on FB if you fancy some really nasty stuff

and plenty on here love denigrating sturgeon, salmond, 'jocks' etc etc

the divisveness has only been stoked by the low points of the EU referendum, people have become more polarised and less inhibited about their bearing nationalist jingoism

teamhurtmore - Member

The snideness and divisiveness and attempts to shut people down - all come one way.

Hahaha! 😆

Coming from you as well! Oh my.

Yes, this will be a bitter and pointless debate kimbers * - where's Richard Osman when you need him?

Alexander Armstrong sounds good and Scottish, but IIRC he was a Northumberland lad... 🙂

It was awful before but emboldened by Brexshit and Trump, the lies will be even more outrageous this time. We can see this from the off - we are heading for a HARD BREXSHIT - before we have even started.

Tell me, if we hold this referendum, and you losw, then how long will it be before you are back demanding another one?

"This is a once in a lifetime opportunity, well, you know, maybe twice, or maybe even three times if we have to, but definitely no more than that, unless something changes..."

ninfan - Member

Tell me, if we hold this referendum, and you losw, then how long will it be before you are back demanding another one?

Make up your mind, I thought no-one wanted this one?

Probably when a party puts the conditions for one into their manifesto and wins enough votes to enact it when those conditions are met?

niunfan - not until something significant happens and not for a long time

teamhurtmore - Member

The snideness and divisiveness and attempts to shut people down - all come one way. Control the message, shut down dissent, the ends justify the means

Project fear? But then as you lot told us on the last thread; there was no such thing. Yet here you all are again.

and not for a long time

I'm getting a sense of deja vu 😉

big_n_daft - Member
Assets come with liabilities.

No shit sherlock.

As the brexiters have been insisting that there will be a 'seemless and frictionless' border between North and South Ireland for a while now at least the Scots know itd be possible between Scotland and dUK after a hard Brexshit followed by Sexshit and EU sign up

big_n_daft - Member
That's not the argument, rUK is just disappointed that fellow members of the UK see an opportunity to dump the rest of us...

Maybe you should watch Westminster when a Scottish issue is being raised and watch the braying howling reactions from the govt benches. Then we get outvoted every time.

The reality is that Scotland has not got the numbers to have effective representation in Westminster.

The SNP are very good at making noises and being diverting, but they would be as well to emulate Sinn Feinn and simply not turn up for all the good it does. Why on earth they have not taken Margaret Thatcher's advice beats me.

And if you care to look at UK's other parts, Northern Ireland and Wales, you'll see they are making noises about getting out of the relationship too. That doesn't happen when people are feeling they're getting a fair go.

Independence is the only answer.

It is funny isn't it duckman - loads of folk who don't live in Scotland telling us that we can't be independent.

[quote=kimbers ]As the brexiters have been insisting that there will eb aseemless and frictionless border between North and South Ireland for a while now at least the Scots know itd be possible after a hard Brexshit followed by Sexshit and EU sign up
Ah but according to Jambalaya that only works for Ireland because Ireland is, well, an island. Whereas the land mass currently known as Britain.....

Project fear? But then as you lot told us on the last thread; there was no such thing. Yet here you all are again.

You do like to make things up duckie dont you?

People will be arguing that, "others are saying we cant be independent" soon, when the debate is nothing of the sort. It SHOULD be about what is the best solution for maximising the interests of [s]Nicola Sturgeon[/s] the people of Scotland the the rUK.

English will be pretending their Scots next and start supporting their sporting teams etc... 😉

tjagain,
Yup all of those work for me 🙂
Perfectly fair, reflecting what I wanted to say exactly. Especially the last one, which you should read again because thats pretty much how I see YOUR point of view.

Except for the epicyclo reference where you seem to have removed the smiley face. The comment was in reference to this:

epicyclo >> As for mentioning their location, that was because they got all upset last time when I said they were irrelevants because they have no vote because they are not in Scotland.

Are you really suggesting that you have produced evidence that I am sneering, condescending, scot disliking and just possibly scot hating?

I'm tempted to call you a snowflake, but I fear you may melt in my laser like distain. For reference, I may be forthright or distainful, but I'm not the one throwing accusations of "dislike" and "hatred" based on nothing.

By all means argue for an independent Scotland, but stop trying to tell us it'll be coated in honey.

How about a realistic stab at what we won't be able to pay for.

Some assets can be sold, but its like the family silver, a temporary measure and only once.

PS There you go again with the "you don't live in Scotland" thing.
Watch it your Nationalism is showing.

PPS We've had the "you're rude" reason for not engaging, and now the "you're not in Scotland".. whatever next?

any chance of that break down of the assets and liabilities, so we can see where we stand?

Or you just happy to go with current figures of how scotland is being missmanaged "within the union"?

Or how about we look at GDP figures for countries that are all surrounding scotland with similar populations, who all seem to be doing better.

The union is not good for scotland.

Eat the pudding - your posts are sneering and condescending as that one is. If you don't understand this you will never understand why you get called out for your obvious bias

You want to shout others down but don't want to listen and your attitude stinks " snowflake" indeed.

Mind the beam in your eye

loads of folk who don't live in Scotland telling us that we can't be independent.

As opposed to loads of folk in Glasgow telling everyone else they have to leave the UK?

To summarise ETP - why won't you thick ignorant delusional fools engage with me?

...and Dundee ninfan, dont forget Dundee.

trying to regionalise 1 person 1 vote, where all votes are equal. 😆 I like it, top work lads!

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/03/brexit-makes-scottish-independence-much-more-economically-attractive

Brexit makes Scottish independence much more economically attractive

In 2014, a brighter future outside the rUK was patriotic wishful thinking. Now it is almost a certainty.

Simon Wren-Lewis is an economist at the Blavatnik School of Government and Merton College, University of Oxford.

trying to regionalise 1 person 1 vote, where all votes are equal. I like it, top work lads!

Yes, I wonder where we got the idea of suggesting that a national referendum in which one person, one vote, produced a clear majority, could actually be broken down into individual regions to pretend that there was no mandate for the democratically chosen outcome?

I wonder....

tjagain
I seem to recall that (on the basis of evidence offered in this thread) I've withdrawn my comments on the Scottish NHS and retracted a comment about set up costs for an iScotland that was a wild overestimate.
I also withdraw my comment about the SNP not wanting FFA (which I considered a compliment). Clearly they did want it but I can't for the life of me understand why.

So that's 3 times I've changed my mind or retracted based on evidence offered.

If I'm still disagreeing with you it might be because the evidence you produced is just not good enough.

Apart from the comment about epicyclo (which I explained) and calling you a snowflake (which think I can defend) I don't really make personal comments or get offended.

Try harder to make good arguments and I'll try not to parody them.

PS an economic article by Business in Scotland, is a pamphlet from an SNP sponsored pressure group trying to obfuscate. Not an attempt to clarify.

I see May has backtracked on her Glasgow speech

rather than repatriating powers back to Westminster, shes now suggesting that she might devolve some more

wee eck getting the various bits all mixed up AGAIN. This in an asset, no its not, yes it is, not its not, bloody English Tory bullies

The snideness and divisiveness and attempts to shut people down - all come one way

I'm still waiting for the experts in economics to explain why a Scottish govt would be [i]"...won't be able to do as well as, say Malta, or New Zealand".[/i]

There must be some reason that they know about as to why a Scottish govt would not be able to handle the emergent circumstance of independence when everyone else has.

C'mon expose the hidden secret...

It is funny isn't it duckman - loads of folk who don't live in Scotland telling us that we can't be independent.

Of course you can....but it seems it ain't gonna work very well! Also where would it end, independence for Yorkshire, Surrey, Birmingham? But almost certainly, all the hot air will come from the Glasgow/Dundee mafia and the rest will hold their counsel.....until they vote to stay! So much more hot air and chips before then though. 😕

Brexit makes Scottish independence much more economically attractive
In 2014, a brighter future outside the rUK was patriotic wishful thinking. Now it is almost a certainty.

how much would it cost Nissan to Move their plant 60 miles North?

"New Zealand"

New Zealand's nice because of the low population and the climate. It's not an economic success story compared to the UK.

eat the pudding - I have no problem with disagreeing with you. I have a huge issue with the nasty sneering and condescending content of your posts.

Business[i] for[/i] Scotland is not an SNP pressure group. You need to stop thinking the SNP are the only organisation on the yes side and the only people who speak for yes.

Your basic lack of understanding of the political situation is unsurprising tho given the paucity of the information you get. Its one of the problems in this debate. Folk like you only get to see a part of the picture

epicylo,
I don't think anyone is saying that Scotland [i]can't[/i].
They're saying that at least in the medium term iScotland will have less money to spend on the things everyone (seems to) agree it would want (like strong welfare and a thriving NHS).

It would have to start with a lot of austerity, and grow its way out.

So who would pay the price and for how long?

How embarrassing is that map of countries that have become independent of the UK whilst people here bleat on about immigrants stealing our jobs/benefits

outofbreath - Member
New Zealand's nice because of the low population and the climate. It's not an economic success story compared to the UK.

Economic success story like the UK?

Any country with a govt crying poor to justify a Sanctions Genocide of the vulnerable, which cannot afford to put planes on its aircraft carriers, and which has massive areas of poverty is not an economic success story.

Or are you are just talking about the rich getting fat on the privatised assets of the state?

Any NZers care to comment?

But nonetheless, I notice they haven't considered ever asking to come back so obviously they prefer what they have.

How about some of the hundred or so other countries on the list...

tjagain,
Some information, in the nicest way possible :O) (really)
(with references)
BfS From [url= http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/business-for-scotland-where-are-they-now.html ]here[/url]

So of the seven Directors who were in place in November 2013 all but one resigned in December 2014. Since then one was elected as an SNP MP, one as an SNP MSP and one was a failed SNP list candidate.

Finally - for those thinking this apparent party affiliation may be just a series of concidences - the Herald revealed after the referendum that SNP Chief Executive Peter Murrell was personally providing guidance on the structure of the board and how they focused their activities.

Comment?

epicyclo - its a very good point and one yet unanswered. If all these small countries without Scotlands advantages are rich then why not Scotland?

outofbreath - Member

"New Zealand"

New Zealand's nice because of the low population and the climate. It's not an economic success story compared to the UK.

How does it compare on standard/satisfaction of life? Not everything comes down to money. Saudi Arabia is an economic success story in comparison. I know where I'd prefer to live.

"But nonetheless, I notice they haven't considered ever asking to come back so obviously they prefer what they have."

I'm not saying the UK is better than NZ, just that it has a bigger GDP.

Obviously a lower population and good climate are unbeatable advantages that outweigh wealth.

It would have to start with a lot of austerity, and grow its way out.

Nice to see Project Fear making a comeback

You do like to make things up duckie dont you?

Well strictly speaking no; you are making them up(as mentioned by Gordi a few posts above) I'm just repeating them...In an internet-pointing-and-laughing-style.

oh good, making up and sneering - how misty is the mirror? "It wasn't me miss, it was Gordon who did it" 😉

At least you are not someone who claimed that 10% of the scottish population are members of the SNP and then berates non-believers with jibes like a "basic lack of understanding". Brilliant 😉

You dont need to make it up - its all here, in all its glory!

Yes BoardinBob.. I'm just trying to scare you.
Scotland deficit is all smoke and mirrors.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/24/scottish-finances-worsen-fall-oil-revenues-15bn-deficit ]grauniad article[/url]

@thm Mine's perfectly clear thanks

The Net Assets of the Bank of England according to its accounts are £4 billion, the Houses of Parliament are probably a liability in view of the repair costs, but the general rule on split is that physical asset got to the country where they are located so we get Westminster and you get the Tax Collection Office in Cumbernauld

Assetts / liabilities are easy. Don't gives us a fair share of the assetts we take none of the debt. Simples.

How much will england pay to keep the subs on the clyde?

You keep Edinburgh Castle we keep Westminster. Pretty simple.

We can manage the debt on our own if necessary. The damage to an iS for not talking a share would be astronomical.

You are quite right there may be a rental agreement for the facilities on the Clyde or we may just deide to move the base elsewhere if that looks more appealing. The subs by the way are not English, they are the UK's armed forces. Bit of a slip there TJ.

ETP your number for iS infrastructure creation may be too high but the SNP number was fantastically low. IMO the cost would be closer to your number than theirs.

@ km79

To summarise ETP - why won't you thick ignorant delusional fools engage with me?

Just noticed this.. it's like looking in a mirror.. how to you know me so well 🙂

Can you show me where you cut and pasted that from?

If it's just a summary I'd prefer something like
"Show me the money?"

we get Westminster and you get the Tax Collection Office in Cumbernauld

What about Balmoral?

Her Maj can't survive with just Sandringham/windsor as her country pads !

As for getting bogged down in GDP, liabilities, assets...
The answer is obvious

The SNP can write whatever numbers they like on a big red bus, it'll frame the debate and hand them victory, no matter that it's a lie.*

We've been assured this is the proper wxsay to win a referendum.

*TBF any of May's recent hypocrisy laden quotes about playing politics, tunnel vision or divisive referendums or her woefully? misjudged speech in Glasgow 2 weeks ago could go up there.

]

Fair enough I'm happy with that

Balmoral belongs to the Queen not the state - Holyrood would go to Scotland.

We don't want the subs. apparently there is nowhere else for them to go. I think we might just have you over a barrel on that one and I wonder what the rental will be.

You keep Edinburgh Castle we keep Westminster. Pretty simple.

Nope - Edinburgh castle belongs to Scotland, Westminster belongs to the UK

[img] :large[/img]

outofbreath - Member
"But nonetheless, I notice they haven't considered ever asking to come back so obviously they prefer what they have."

I'm not saying the UK is better than NZ, just that it has a bigger GDP.

Obviously a lower population and good climate are unbeatable advantages that outweigh wealth.

How about the hundred or so other countries that are independent?...

None of them have come back, so obviously they think it was a good move.

scotroutes - Member

I think it's mental that people would think Europeans will be hostile to scotland remaining within the EU, or even that they would make it difficult if we had to reply. The Europeans don't even want rUK to leave, why would they be hostile to scotland, it's nonsensical now and it was nonsensical last time.

How about the hundred or so other countries that are independent?...

You go on about this a lot, as if it was a direct comparison. This difference is that none of these countries (apart from some of Ireland) were ever actually a constituent part of the UK. Scotland isn't ruled by the UK (no matter how much the SNP like to portray us as a downtrodden little colony), we are part of the UK.

why would they be hostile to scotland, it's nonsensical

Most admittedly aren't, however they would expect Scotland to join under certain very strict conditions. The problem country is Spain, because of the Catalans. Various members of the Spanish government have made it quite clear they would make if difficult for Scotland to rejoin.

Kind of similar to how the UK wasn't ruled by the EU, but were a part of it.

Didn't stop 51.8% of voters voting to regain our sovereignty

You know the whole "we're leaving and taking 8% of the UK's assets with us" argument? Doesn't that logic mean that the rest of the UK gets 92% of Scottish assets?

[quote=welshfarmer ]Kind of similar to how the UK wasn't ruled by the EU, but were a part of it.
Didn't stop 51.8% of voters voting to [b]regain[/b] our sovereignty
Wrong word, eh?

When did David Cameron ask the permission of the EU to hold a referendum?

yes basically the assetts that belong to the UK as a whole need to be split. From the military to the railways via houses of parliament. Holyrood belongs to Scotland for Example wheras Westminster belongs to the UK

Very complex to sort out Mainly it will be done on a geographical basis but this cannot be done for some things

Seems like it's in Scotland's interest to not push the "we want 8%" button too much then.

Nope - we want 8% 'cos we have less than 8% of the UKs assets in Scotland

Like the bank of England - how much is that worth? Its a uk asset so belongs in part to scotland - as does HS1 (and 2) as they were built with UK strategic funds not english only spending ( IIRC) under Barnett

Westminster wouldn't get the 35 million a year in VAT from the Scottish police and fire services if we got independence.

You know the whole "we're leaving and taking 8% of the UK's assets with us" argument? Doesn't that logic mean that the rest of the UK gets 92% of Scottish assets?

Nope. It may mean that the value of 92% of UK assets in Scotland (those that will remain here anyway) is subtracted from the overall 8% of UK assets.

From Veterans from Independence:

[i]"....what Nicola Sturgeon has done by calling for an Independence Referendum for Scotland in late 2018/early 2019 is to remove ALL of Scotland's assets from the Brexit negotiating table.

No longer is Theresa May able to use Scotland's fishing rights as a bargaining chip, no more boosting UK trade figures with Scotland's whisky and gas exports, no more bragging about Scotland's renewable industry.

She can't make promises about things she might lose control of in a few short months - and the EU negotiators know that."[/i]

Explains the timing, especially as Westminster was talking about trying to snaffle the farming and fishing rights which are not reserved powers and therefore belong to Scotland as of right.

kennyp - Member
'How about the hundred or so other countries that are independent?...'
You go on about this a lot, as if it was a direct comparison. This difference is that none of these countries (apart from some of Ireland) were ever actually a constituent part of the UK.

It doesn't have to be a direct comparison, in fact none of them can be. Then there's also all the other countries that have secured independence from the other European countries, and none of them want back either.

So it's fair to ask - what is so unique about Scotland amongst all the countries in the world that the doom mongers can highlight as reasons Scotland would fail as an independent country?

It seems the only credible reason is that they have either ill-will or antagonism towards Scotland.

I'll accept they have a case if they can show any country similar to Scotland that has failed.

Well Scotland is at 55 degrees north, has an area of 78K km2 and a population of 5.3 million. A similar independent nation might be Denmark, also at 55 degrees north, a little smaller at 43K km2 and a pretty similar population at 5.7 million.

But then who would want to live in a small independent country like Denmark. Must be an awful place to live

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/22/denmark-happiest-country_n_4070761.html

yes basically the assetts that belong to the UK as a whole need to be split. From the military to the railways via houses of parliament. Holyrood belongs to Scotland for Example wheras Westminster belongs to the UK

This is what yS would like you to believe,. However, the counter argument

It is a legal principle that, as the United Kingdom would be the continuator state, institutions of the UK would remain with that state.[18] For example, Parliament, the UK Supreme Court, the Bank of England and the BBC would—as UK institutions—remain institutions of the rest of the UK. If an independent Scotland wished to continue membership of, or form a partnership in, any UK institution, that would be for the rest of the UK to consider as part of negotiations. [b]There is no legal right for a successor state to share the institutions of the state from which it secedes[/b]....

22. The Scottish Government told us that fixed assets in Scotland would become Scottish on independence, whereas all assets in the rest of the UK would be subject to negotiations.[21] This was not borne out by other evidence we heard....

Still sounds good doesn't it? and better than reality:

In the event of Scottish secession, institutions of the UK would become institutions of the rest of the UK, as the continuator state. Fixed assets would belong to the state in which they are located. Other (non-fixed) assets and liabilities would be apportioned equitably. The exact division would be a matter for negotiations, and would be complicated.