You are exactly what is wrong with this forum. You take pleasure in walking right up to the line and throwing stones. You’re aim is not to discuss but to get people angry and shouty for your own amusement.
So have you followed the new guidance from the mods and reported it, rather being dragged down to the same level?
Northwind
Full Member
argee
Full Memberpeople are starting to sneer at them the same as they sneer at the tories, i hear a lot of disgruntled stuff about the SNP focus at present
Well yes, unionists have always done that- SNP baaaad, nothing they do can ever be admitted to be any good and any mention of independence always gets “focus on the day job”. It’s just how they play the game.
These aren't unionists, they're folk who aren't too happy with the politics being played, and the changes being brought in by the SNP. I also hear a fair amount of negativity towards some of the members of the party, but that again is due to how long they've been in, and like the tories, they're pretty much unchallenged in Scotland, there's not many places you can predict the outcome with confidence, so they do take that for granted a bit.
As for Independence getting rid of them, who here honestly believes career politicians are going to move on to pastures new, or risk losing their seat with any shift away from the area of power?
So have you followed the new guidance from the mods and reported it, rather being dragged down to the same level?
Yes.
As for Independence getting rid of them, who here honestly believes career politicians are going to move on to pastures new, or risk losing their seat with any shift away from the area of power?
They may not have a choice. They still have to be elected and if the electorate don't like them they're out.
Assuming you're not trying to say the SNP is going to engineer it so that Scotland becomes a single party state post-independence?
As for Independence getting rid of them, who here honestly believes career politicians are going to move on to pastures new, or risk losing their seat with any shift away from the area of power?
Its not the politicians that will cease to exist but the party. The SNP is a much broader church than most parties from the urban socialists to the rural hunting shooting fishing lot. After independence the glue that holds the SNP together goes and it will fracture and cease to exist as the SNP.
After independence the glue that holds the SNP together goes and it will fracture and cease to exist as the SNP.
Existential problem of all single issue parties though really. From the perspective of someone from south of the border looking in, it appears that the SNP have lost some urgency compared to just a few years ago, they appear to have things sown up really, De facto control, a handily useless and corrupt govt at whom to point a finger occasionally, safe in the knowledge of almost overwhelming support come election time.
Why rock that boat?
I understand the SNP pretty well, have a couple of mates who are elected, they were a broader church than they are now, that's just the nature of covering devolution of powers, the Scottish Parliament, etc, and of course the newer breed of SNP politician coming through the ranks.
Anyway, i doubt IndyRef2 will happen any time soon, the tories are in a good position down here, Labour are in absolute disarray, which was helped in part by the rise of the SNP, labour went from having 40 or so MPs in Scotland 15 years ago to 1 as of now!
Or do you need FPTP explained to you again?
Are you saying that Scotland is the equivalent of just another region in England?
bruce - don't engage with those who are only here to cause upset and irritation is my advice
Argee - Sturgeon is on her last chance with regards to another referendum
If she does not get one held withing the timescale she has outlined her party will fracture and she will be out with a career ending in failure
There is a section of the independence movement that believes she wants to run scotland as a part of the UK and not as independent. personally I believe this is nonsense but there are those who believe it ad they are barely keeping their impatience in check. Most of them have kept to the line for now but if she does not get a referendum done then that will spill over in open warfare and she will be ousted.
And what happens if for a second time in just a short number of years Scots vote to remain in the Union, is that it?
I can't see the SNP surviving if they ask for and win or lose a referendum on independence, equally if they don't ask for one then in a few more years that's the end of them also.
And what happens if for a second time in just a short number of years Scots vote to remain in the Union, is that it?
I would say so yes and IMO thats the reason for Sturgeons caution
bruce – don’t engage with those who are only here to cause upset and irritation is my advice
As is often the case, I think there is a valid point there behind the tone. I think the question is, what makes Scotland so special?
It's true that London voted to Remain and for not-Johnson. Why should Scotland leave the Union but not London?
I think the obvious answer is that there's nothing special about Scotland. If London wanted to leave the Union that would be a valid choice as well. However, the fact that London doesn't want to consider leaving the Union shouldn't mean that Scotland shouldn't be allowed to consider leaving.
It might seem like Scottish Exceptionalism to want to leave the Union when individual English regions don't but I think part of the reason is that English regions generally still identify as English. Overall, I think the majority of Scots identify as Scottish, whether they support independence or not.
So what makes Scotland special? Absolutely nothing. However, the choices of individual English regions shouldn't force Scotland to accept the same course. Like it or not, there is a Scottish identity that is much stronger than the identity of any individual English region*.
*With the possible exception of Yorkshire 🙂
Also Bruce Scotland is a country with its own legal system and its own political system. London or english regions are not but if they want to go for independence nothing is stopping them
Its not the politicians that will cease to exist but the party. The SNP is a much broader church than most parties from the urban socialists to the rural hunting shooting fishing lot. After independence the glue that holds the SNP together goes and it will fracture and cease to exist as the SNP.
It would be a shame if/when that does to pass. For me the greatest strength of the SNP is that it is a truly centrist party, which Coes from it's diverse base. Most of the decisions it takes tend to be sensible, grown up & balanced compromises, not popularist decisions designed to only appease only the left/right.
Also Bruce Scotland is a country with its own legal system and its own political system.
Of course, and it's own education system. And it's own bank notes that are always fun to take to England.
It would be a shame if/when that does to pass. For me the greatest strength of the SNP is that it is a truly centrist party, which Coes from it’s diverse base. Most of the decisions it takes tend to be sensible, grown up & balanced compromises, not popularist decisions designed to only appease only the left/right.
I don't think that would come to an end with independence. In fact, I think the need to compromise and adopt sensible centrist policies would be increased post-independence. I doubt any single party would be able to gain a majority so power sharing would be the norm.
It would be a shame if/when that does to pass. For me the greatest strength of the SNP is that it is a truly centrist party,
Hmmmm - the trouble is its support ranges from left of labour to centre of tory - those forces will be too great to survive post independence
Its like you had Corbyn to Heseltine in the same party
I thik a post independence scotland would see a huge realignment in parties - remember its a prioportional system here
From left to right
A small hard left group consisting of the remnants of the various hard left groups we have had plus the left of labour and maybe a few from the left of the SNP
A centre left group which is the rest of the labour party plus the urban left part of the SNP
LIb dems in the centrish but remaining small.
Centre right group of the left of the tories plus th eright of the SNP
hard right party of uionists and brexiteers from the right of the tory party
I think all our parties bar the lib dems and greens will split up
Hmmmm – the trouble is its support ranges from left of labour to centre of tory – those forces will be too great to survive post independence
Its like you had Corbyn to Heseltine in the same party
Which is exactly my point of it being it's major strength! The decision makers' hasve to factor this wide base into their decision making, the result being the decisions are, on the whole considered & balanced.
Generally, in my opinion, this makes for better quality of politics than what we see in Westminster and what makes the SNP appealing to so much of the electorate.
Its really not a strength IMO
Take one example - raptor killings. No action was taken because of Fergus Ewing. this is despite the overwhelming evidence and public desire to deal with this. Ewing was right wing and blocked a much needed and desired policy. the SNP have finally got rid of him but he had a big powerbase in the rural community so it took a decade to be shot of him.
these gulfs are simply too large to bridge in many cases and leads to the party trying to be all things to everyone but results in paralysis and poor policy making
Which is exactly my point of it being it’s major strength! The decision makers’ hasve to factor this wide base into their decision making, the result being the decisions are, on the whole considered & balanced.
Sure, but you don't need the SNP to achieve that. Most European countries use some form of Proportional representation so that considered and balanced outcomes are achieved by not having a single party with the majority of votes.
Normally the governing party has to not only keep its own members on board but also convince two or three (or even more) parties to vote with them.
FPTP is no longer fit for purpose (if it ever was).
Or do you need FPTP explained to you again?
Do you need the RIGHT WING majority in parliament explained to you?
(Sorry TJ 😃, I will rubber him now.)
I was thinking earlier about the works of one of my favourite authors. The books are deeply layered but one of the most moving aspects for me is that they are a declaration of his hope for humanity, what he thinks we could be. And I recognise the vision he creates (either consciously or not) as being profoundly British. I'm sure you lot will have realised I am talking about Iain Banks, who was Scottish.
The point is that, for all the talk of individualism, I think the Scots, English and Welsh* are much closer to each other than they realise and that we really do have a fundamentally British identity much more than we do as individual nations.
* I don't actually know anyone from Northern Ireland.
FPTP is no longer fit for purpose
I'm firmly of the belief that FPTP is the root of most of our problems. It really ****s up representation and consequently allows the system to be heavily manipulated.
I would definitely agree with Iain Banks' views on Scottish Independence:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/may/17/scottish-independence-parties
Nevertheless, I would still hope that in the unlikely event I live as long as my dad – who died when he was 91 – then I shall die in an independent Scotland on the best possible terms with its big English neighbour.
More from the great man here:
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2011/aug/28/scottish-independence-snp-iain-banks
I voted Green, Scottish Socialist party, Lib Dem or SNP, mostly as protest votes, but, gradually – and with rather more hope – increasingly for the SNP. Not because I was particularly nationalistic – like a lot of people on the left I've always been suspicious of the populist, divisive appeal of nationalism – but because the SNP's policies were more progressive, more left wing, more fair, in the end, compared to any other party with a realistic chance of achieving power. Labour stopped being Labour, so I became a pragmatic voter for the SNP.
I would hope that those who don't feel that Scotland (or Wales or NI) and the people of Scotland (or Wales or NI) do not get the recognition they deserve have the same empathy for other minority groups and how they get treated and who they get lumped in with.
I flagged a clear case of homophobia the other day but no one had a word to say about that.
Works both ways, you know.
@ThePilot I do try to jump in wherever I can!
More from the great man
And there are many people who think that view is widespread amongst the whole UK - that we need a new centre party. Lots of non-Scots say they would vote SNP if they could.
Do you still recognise the SNP Iain Banks describes above @BruceWee. I'm a member and activist. I feel that they're currently drifting a bit to the right. However I am here for independence so I can leave as soon as it's won which gives strength to TJA argument that the party will fracture after indy is won.
Appreciate it, @molgrips
Shouldn't be down to one person anyway.
It's just if you're (the general you) is going to be sensitive about one thing, it's only right that you at least try to be sensitive about another thing. That my opinion anyway for what it's worth! 🙂
And I recognise the vision he creates (either consciously or not) as being profoundly British. I’m sure you lot will have realised I am talking about Iain Banks, who was Scottish.
Eh? A very scottish author writing about things that happened in Scotland to Scots people. I see nothing profoundly british about him at all. But then I see no "british" identity anymore bar geographical
would you like to expolain what is "profoundly british" about him given that to me he is very Scottish
I am here for independence so I can leave as soon as it’s won
Guess why we've not had another Indyref?
A very scottish author writing about things that happened in Scotland to Scots people
I'm talking about the Culture novels, I don't think Scotland is that technologically advanced yet 🙂
I am not sure I should be de-railing this thread with a literary discussion though, unless anyone else is interested?
But then I see no “british” identity anymore bar geographical
That's fascinating, because it's very obvious to me. Out of interest have you ever lived outside the UK? Inside we can often not see the wood for the trees.
Ah - thats him writing as Iain M Banks hence the confusion
I see the culture novels as not British either. If anything the politics are closer to the european social democratic consensus than anything that has come out of Westminster and I fail to see how you reach that conclusion he is "very british" - its not US style SF for sure but its not UK style society either. Far more European mainstream that british to me
Out of interest have you ever lived outside the UK? Inside we can often not see the wood for the trees.
Yes - around 6 years of my life. europe, antipodes, south america
So what is this "British Identity?" you see.
I flagged a clear case of homophobia the other day but no one had a word to say about that.
Works both ways, you know.
I had a look back through the thread but I couldn't see where you flagged the homophobia. I didn't notice anything I thought was homophobic at the time. If I had I would have definitely said something/reported it.
You know what I'm not sure I want to get into another bunfight.
I remember that post. Effectively ( I cannot remember the words) using homosexuality as an insult
Molgrips - have you ever lived in Scotland? I do really feel you do not understand the different social compact here
Do you still recognise the SNP Iain Banks describes above
At it's core, yes. Certainly when compared to the mainstream UK parties.
I wouldn't really class myself as an SNP supporter though. They are more of a vehicle for independence. I'm sure they'll explode into 8 different parties the day after a successful vote.
I remember that post. Effectively ( I cannot remember the words) using homosexuality as an insult
The last homophobia I remember on this thread was someone 'joking' that NS was a closeted homosexual but that was a good while ago. I can't remember if I reported or not but I definitely called it out. It was another one of those 'plausible deniability' type comments by one of the usual wind up merchants.
Anyway. Five years this thread has been going and the SNP show no signs of progressing the issue any time soon so I don't know why folk are suddenly getting all worked up about it.
I blame the arsehole who resurrected the thread after a two month hiatus.
I don’t know why folk are suddenly getting all worked up about it.
Personally, I'm here because if I wasn't I'd be obsessively refreshing the Ukraine thread waiting for someone to post something that'll make everything OK again.
This is marginally better than that.
BruceWee Full Member
I wouldn’t really class myself as an SNP supporter though. They are more of a vehicle for independence. I’m sure they’ll explode into 8 different parties the day after a successful vote.
Power can be a heck of a glue, until the recent purges it managed to hold the very different wings of the Conservative party together for example. While the dissolution of the SNP (in its current form) is one potential outcome of independence I'm not sure I'd bet on it against the alternative (them staying together "for the sake of the majority", with party politics somewhat being overshadowed by the factional politics within the ruling part).
