Please quote a single pejorative anti english post
Anti-English sentiment doesn't have to come in that form. It's like racism. Back in the day, this meant 'I hate black people'. But now we've realised that there's more to it than that. Parts of the US used to plead that 'separate but equal' wasn't racist at all and point to the 'equal' bit, saying how could it be racist when it says 'equal'? Now, if I started a conversation about how black people have a great sense of rhythm, that'd be considered racist. Even though having a good sense of rhythm isn't a negative.
The problem here is treating the English (and Scottish) as some kind of homogenous group and giving us all guilt by association. And naturally since you are anti-Brexit this means lumping all of us down here with that negative. I'm sure you'll label this as 'tosh' but this is how -isms work.
I'm fairly sure that if the tables were turned, that if it had been Scotland that voted out and Wales that voted remain, you'd be complaining if I were using such language against you. And rightfully so.
am trying to assert that I do not want to be associated with England and Wales anymore. You are saying this is invalid. You are saying it is anti-English. You are saying it is othering.
I personally am not, I have conflicted opinions on Scottish (and Welsh) independence. What I am trying to point out is that you and TJ are both using anti-English rhetoric without apparently realising it. It's a bit like Johnson referring to the EU as 'friends and allies' whilst promoting Brexit.
Your problem (and mine!) is with Westminster and the Tory party. Not England or Wales.
There is no anti english sentiment expressed at all that I have seen.
Several of us have perceived it in comments made. There's no such thing as a wrong perception. The fact that this concern keeps coming up suggests there's an issue on one side or the other.
Then please, please, please report the offending posts/posters to the mods. What you are doing at the moment is the definition of playing the man not the ball. You are not engaging in debate. You are saying our opinions are invalid because we are anti-English.
If our comments are anti-English then report it and the mods will warn/ban us. If not, please stop accusing us.
Your problem (and mine!) is with Westminster and the Tory party. Not England or Wales.
I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the "democratic" decisions of the people of England and Wales, and their implications for the rest of Union.
Several of us have perceived it in comments made
It is pretty noticeable. Not as bad as it has been, though particularly interesting given what has been said in the forum behaviour thread.
It is pretty noticeable.
Please report it.
Given the comments on the behaviour thread about people repeatedly stepping up to a line, but not quite over it, the irony on this thread is off the scale.
I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the “democratic” decisions of the people of England and Wales,
Not really. If you add 'some' or 'minority of' before people rather than 'the' then you are getting closer (but it is still a way off)
I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the “democratic” decisions of the people of England and Wales,
I'm not so sure, I mean the referendum was offered by the government and its results was acted upon by the government.
I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the “democratic” decisions of the people of England and Wales,
Again this is generalising. FPTP elections and binary referendums have to do work like this - but government doesn't, and neither do you.
Report it or stop accusing us, please.
Done.
This is getting tiresome, you made this exact argument in the forum behaviour thread and now, when you're being called out, seem happy to just ignore it.
I can see exactly where they are coming from, it's a crap argument and just detracts from everything else.
Done.
This is getting tiresome, you made this exact argument in the forum behaviour thread and now, when you’re being called out, seem happy to just ignore it.
Well done. What has been happening is exactly what Mark was talking about. People are playing the man not the ball. Anyone in favour of independence is being accused of being anti-English.
Debate the facts, don't attack our characters.
Is it really necessary to use such inflammatory language big and daft?
Seriously? have you got no insight at all?
OK, having gone away, opened a beer, and had a think, yes, my language was inflammatory, albeit unintentionally.
The problem is it's difficult to find a diplomatic way of referring to the decisions made by the population in England whilst acknowledging that almost no one here shares those views.
I apologise.
However, please understand that it's felt very insulting to have been accused of anti-English sentiments for two pages when, imo, it's not justified.
Well done @BruceWee for taking some time to think about things and having the balls to apologise.
My use of the word "perception" was meant to imply that I didn't feel it was necessarily intentional, but it felt like it pushed everyone into their trenches.
I'm sorry if my reaction contributed to the way things went.
On some factual points:
Scotland didn't choose to leave the EU - 68% of voters in the referendum opposed EU Exit - the decision can be perceived as imposed on Scotland.
The National is not an unbiased source of information.
Thanks BruceWee. If it helps, I've been accused of racism, justifiably so, and I try hard not to be racist. I said things I didn't realise were racist or would be interpreted as such.
The decision to leave the EU wasn't taken by 'the English', it should be clear by now there is no collective English mind. The decision to have the referendum and to subsequently leave the EU was taken by the government, and more English people voted to leave than not. But there is no single group of 'English people' any more than there is one of 'Scottish people'.
the decision can be perceived as imposed on Scotland
Indeed. The decision was also imposed on London, and Cardiff for that matter.
The decision to leave the EU wasn’t taken by ‘the English’, it should be clear by now there is no collective English mind.
Of course that's true.
Just for a bit of context, for my part, I've lived a lot of my life abroad and from a young age. It's been a constant throughout that English people (not all but a lot) will automatically refer to England or the English when what they mean is the UK or people from the UK.
I've always laughed it off as a joke or a 'typical English' response. It has always irritated me though but I didn't want to seem like I was one of 'those' type of Scottish people.
I'm very sensitive to English people who I feel don't view Scotland as a real country but rather just another region in 'England'.
I think we should be very careful about how we refer to the decision made in 2016. I also feel we should be very careful about how we refer to Scotland and keep in mind that implying that Scotland is somehow just a region in Greater England is very provoking.
It’s been a constant throughout that English people (not all but a lot) will automatically refer to England or the English when what they mean is the UK or people from the UK.
Try being Welsh!
But yes I recognise that, and it's frigging annoying. I mean, English people using the term England as a synonym for the UK is not explicitly anti-Welsh (or anti-Scottish), but it still is.
The whole nationalism thing is absolutely fraught. I mean, the UK is not homogenous, but neither is Scotland, England or Wales. That border is a pretty arbitrary line as I've always maintained, however I completely understand the attraction of separating yourself from what is right now an unfavourable political situatino.
As well as Scotland, London and Cardiff, the decision was imposed on every single individual remainer. But let's be clear, it's far less the fault of Sandra from Skegness than it is of Michael Gove from Aberdeen. It doesn't matter if you're English, Scottish, Welsh or N. Irish, Brexit has been imposed upon us all by a corrupt and corrupting government. We should blame them and not the people, many of whom were duped, who voted for it.
Anyway, this is about Indyref2 not Brexit. And imo the people of Scotland should be given the chance to decide their future again now that things have changed so much.
Well that was quite something to come in from work and find reported on. I can very much see both sides of the argument, I will say @BruceWee thank you for considering what you posted and apologising.
Now can we concentrate on the thread subject please and not who is right or wrong.
Just use leavers and remain not the target a geographical populous.
I want to see examples of this supposed anti english sentiment. No one seems to be able to give any
Its really very insulting to be acused of anti anything when you are not.
I do not accept Molgrips idea that referring to England is anti english.
I had a letter from the US once.
Addressed to: Pilot, 22 The Grove, Cardiff,* Wales, England.
FFS!
*This bit made up for effect btw
That border is a pretty arbitrary line as I’ve always maintained,
apart from its been a national border for many hundred years
I really am offended being called an anti english racist. Its not acceptable unless you back it up
I really am offended being called an anti english racist. Its not acceptable unless you back it up
I haven't seen that you have been, can you back that up?
Just use leavers and remain not the target a geographical populous.
Unfortunately, I don't think it's that simple. One of the key questions of this debate is, 'Are the Scots and the English* sufficiently different that Scotland and rUK should be divorced?'
*I know I'm ignoring NI and Wales but the fact is the absolutely dominant partner in this UK is England.
The biggest differences between the Scots population as a whole and the English population as a whole is political and this was illustrated by the referendum and electing Boris Johnson.
The voting habits of the populations are going to come up again and again in this debate but I think that this can be done so long as independence minded Scots are careful how they refer to the referendum and most recent election.
And that people avoid implying that Scotland is somehow the equivalent of an English region.
What I am trying to point out is that you and TJ are both using anti-English rhetoric without apparently realising it.
What we are saying is NOT anti english rhetoric nor are either of us anti english. I am English!
I want to see examples of this supposed anti english sentiment. No one seems to be able to give any
Can we stop please.
OK - Crossed posts Drac.
And that people avoid implying that Scotland is somehow the equivalent of an English region.
Yeah, that really won't go down well with people in Yorkshire 😉
@tjagain I think everyone was saying things they maybe didn't mean and there was a lack of tolerance and understanding on all sides in the last few pages.
I think it's important to point it out if anyone says anything we feel is provoking going forward but maybe we can try putting the last few pages behind us?
OK - got that message from Drac as well
I’m Welsh, live in Scotland (don’t plan to vote in Indyref2 if it happens while I’m still here because I plan to leave) and voted Remain which just goes to show what utter nonsense intheborders is talking.
I was talking about our Brexiter Unionist - small_and_soft 🙂
I had a letter from the US once.
Addressed to: Pilot, 22 The Grove, Cardiff,* Wales, England.
I once worked on a system that rather than keep a list of every city in the world for address entry it allowed you to input your own city and pick the country, and it would get written into the database. The database contained all sorts of rubbish in the form of spelling mistakes and cities called Smith or 39 Acacia Avenue, but also howlers like Cardiff, England and even Belfast, Ireland and variations thereof. And many times over, they weren't one-offs.
, i hear a lot of disgruntled stuff about the SNP focus at present, and the members in their cabinet, there’s a lot of work to do before any indyref is put forward!
Best way to get rid of them - vote Indy!
argee
Full Memberpeople are starting to sneer at them the same as they sneer at the tories, i hear a lot of disgruntled stuff about the SNP focus at present
Well yes, unionists have always done that- SNP baaaad, nothing they do can ever be admitted to be any good and any mention of independence always gets "focus on the day job". It's just how they play the game.
Other than Americans who does? I may have to apologise to those in NI for referring to the UK as Britain occasionally but other than for rugby and football England in place of UK isn’t used to anywhere I socialise or read
I walked into a Leeds sandwich shop at lunchtime to be met with the bloke behind the counter saying “England’s going to war in Ukraine”. So it does happen.
He didn’t take kindly to my suggestion that even if that was the case, no doubt Scotland may be dragged into it against our will.
Big and daft - the SNP are still more popular in Scotland than any other party is in any part of the UK with nigh on 50% of the vote. 3rd largest party in Westminster despite only standing in 9% of UK seats
3rd largest party in Westminster despite only standing in 9% of UK seats
The lib dems got 3 times as many votes and a third of the number of seats, and the greens almost as many votes for their 1 seat. The numbers in NI are even worse. It just shows how messed up fptp is. You can't use statistics from it to prove much.
You can easily state because it is correct that the SNP are more popular in Scotland than any other UK party is in the UK or any english or welsh only party is. No other party has voting rates as high or satisfaction ratings as high nor does any other party get 50% of the vote - and thats in a 5 party system not a 3 party system
Other than Americans who does? I may have to apologise to those in NI for referring to the UK as Britain occasionally but other than for rugby and football England in place of UK isn’t used to anywhere I socialise or read
So you're calling us liars (with plausible deniability)?
Do we now start talking about Scotshitters? After all we talk about brexishit with free abandon……
So you're calling us shit (with plausible deniability)?
You are a perfect example of what I was talking about in the forum behavior thread. You make snidey comments that are designed to piss people of but if anyone calls you out you just say, 'You're exaggerating.'
If it was a one off then pointing out that we're exaggerating would be fine. However, you do it on every single one of your posts. When you've got someone who does it on every post it's no longer exaggerating, it's just pointing out what you really mean.
The worst thing is that you often make valid points shrouded in a sneering condescending tone. Of course, as soon as someone responds to your point, instead of answering and actually debating the issue, you do a non-sequitur into another sneering condescending statement which may have a valid point in it but is designed to insult and dismiss instead of debate.
I engaged with you yesterday and basically gave you exactly what you want which I'm feeling a bit stupid about.
You are exactly what is wrong with this forum. You take pleasure in walking right up to the line and throwing stones. You're aim is not to discuss but to get people angry and shouty for your own amusement.
Edit to add: I know I'm playing the man here but if you look at their contributions over the last 155 pages you'll see that the game they are playing doesn't even have a ball.
I agree. At risk of playing the man its obvious from B&Ds language and posting style that his intent is to irritate and annoy and upset folk.
1) I assume now a mod has entered the thread to tell us how to refer to the majority voters for brexit as leavers or remainers instead of English (the people who gave us Boris and Brexit) this thread will be moderated equally. Or will it still be OK to pigeonhole anybody wanting away from the right wing majority voting neighbours as anti-English?
2) Still waiting for examples of any pro indy supporters with inflammatory rhetoric.
I feel like I should apologise to the mods for post anything at all on this thread.
2) Still waiting for examples of any pro indy supporters with inflammatory rhetoric.
If I was a remainer based in England or Wales I can definitely see how some of the comments I made yesterday could come across as being inflammatory. Constantly using you (even with my tongue in cheek disclaimer) would have wound me up if I was in their shoes.
However, as I said, I was getting wound up by the implication (intentional or not) that Scotland was the equivalent of just another region in Greater England rather than a country in its own right.
The problem is, it's really difficult to argue for independence without bringing up the fact that the majority of voters in England and Wales voted for Brexit and Johnson. Likewise, it's really difficult to argue against independence without implying (or just flat out stating) that Scotland is the equivalent of a region in England.
Careful use of language and maybe slightly thicker skins needed all round, I would say.
